Credentialism

[sjw]

I agree with Carol that most of her inanities are intentional. She is obviously a very intelligent woman, and she is also an excellent writer (when she wants to be). I therefore think she knows exactly what she is doing.

Ghs

What is she doing? I just thought she was having some good clean fun at our expense. Is there some sinister thing going on here?

Shayne

-I'm so naive.

[George H. Smith]

I agree with Carol that most of her inanities are intentional. She is obviously a very intelligent woman, and she is also an excellent writer (when she wants to be). I therefore think she knows exactly what she is doing.

Ghs

What is she doing? I just thought she was having some good clean fun at our expense. Is there some sinister thing going on here?

Shayne

-I'm so naive.

No, there is nothing sinister going on. I would, however, have a better reaction to "some good clean fun" if it came from someone other than a socialist. This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't trust socialists, generally speaking, and I rarely engage in genial chit-chat with them.

Having subscribed and contributed to a number of socialist elists over the years, I can assure that the cordial manner in which Carol has been treated on OL would rarely if ever be reciprocated on a socialist forum in regard to O'ists and libertarians. Moreover, the in-fighting and name-calling on socialist lists typically make OL look like a perpetual picnic among old friends.

Given this disparity between our motes and socialist beams, I find Carol's notion of "good clean fun" to be somewhat disingenuous.

Ghs

[sjw]

I have no direct knowledge of in what manner Carol is a socialist, I've just seen people flinging that word in her general direction.

Shayne

[Selene]

I have no direct knowledge of in what manner Carol is a socialist, I've just seen people flinging that word in her general direction.

Shayne

Shayne:

I believe she declared herself to be one.

Adam

[George H. Smith]

I have no direct knowledge of in what manner Carol is a socialist, I've just seen people flinging that word in her general direction.

Shayne

Daunce,

What do NAFTA and socialism have to do with you?

You have said you are socialist, but your posts do not lean in that direction.

Michael

I hope my posts lean to my strong belief in individual rights. But I am a socialist, in that I believe that governments need to exist, and that the best guardian of those rights is the kind of socialist system in which I have lived all my life.

I admire many things about Rand and Objectivism, and especially the quality of followers they attract.

But I dance with the one that brung me.

Ghs

[sjw]

Daunce,

What do NAFTA and socialism have to do with you?

You have said you are socialist, but your posts do not lean in that direction.

Michael

I hope my posts lean to my strong belief in individual rights. But I am a socialist, in that I believe that governments need to exist, and that the best guardian of those rights is the kind of socialist system in which I have lived all my life.

I admire many things about Rand and Objectivism, and especially the quality of followers they attract.

But I dance with the one that brung me.

Ghs

I'm curious to know what she means by "individual rights", and whether or not she believes one has a right to opt out of her preferred socialist setup.

Shayne

[George H. Smith]

Daunce,

What do NAFTA and socialism have to do with you?

You have said you are socialist, but your posts do not lean in that direction.

Michael

I hope my posts lean to my strong belief in individual rights. But I am a socialist, in that I believe that governments need to exist, and that the best guardian of those rights is the kind of socialist system in which I have lived all my life.

I admire many things about Rand and Objectivism, and especially the quality of followers they attract.

But I dance with the one that brung me.

Ghs

I'm curious to know what she means by "individual rights", and whether or not she believes one has a right to opt out of her preferred socialist setup.

Shayne

I am curious as well. What puzzles me is why a socialist would post on an O'ist-type website without discussing these and similar substantive matters. I have done this whenever I have posted on socialist and Christian sites. I have never joined such e-groups in order to post cutesy remarks.

Ghs

[william.scherk]

I remain surprised at the amount of tolerance for socialists folks in the OL community. No real in-group, out-group red-button festivities, no runnings on a rail outa town, no SOLO style invectathons and purges.

We Canuckistani socialists must bear what scuffles come our way here. I am surprised we don't get slapped around more. Maybe we trade something in return for forebearance. Our tepid, inane, cleverish fumblings offer faint humour, creaky irony and other feeble things. We may be a foil for the striving productive free thinking friends of liberty. Our northern mumbles give contrast to the firm and fruitful discussions.

Once in a while though, you got to clap on the six gun and say, "Carol, you support the collectivist forces. Your kind put a gun to my head and order me to obey. How long were you thinking of hanging around Dodge?"

[sjw]

I don't have a problem with socialists per se, I have a problem when they bully the rest of us into their schemes and leave no spot on Earth to practice a different philosophy.

Shayne

[Selene]

I don't have a problem with socialists per se, I have a problem when they bully the rest of us into their schemes and leave no spot on Earth to practice a different philosophy.

Shayne

They will let you practice in the re-training camps...relax.

This is satire ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Rich Engle]

Have you ever integrated, after much introspection, the phenomenon of socialist women who start inane threads with the possibility that such women are not nearly as clever as they think they are? You will be much happier when you realize this.

Ghs

George H. Smith- you are officially a rock star

He's been one since somewhere in the late '50's, I think.

When a man tries to sell to a woman, he needs to face her frontally, keep a respectful distance and show his hands. When a man tries to sell to a man, he should stand off to the side. Apparently one male human standing in front of the other triggers alpha-male confrontational juices, even in the wimpiest of creatures.

I think it is very funny when you try shit like this on someone who has just read the same book. It is sort of like dancing, without the rhythms.

Sales books are, generally, despicable things-- if there were to ever be an excuse for burning books, sales books might be the place to get started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

I mean, you could move on to the New Age stuff after that, maybe, but sales books are clearly the place to start firing up.

rde

Rugged Individualist, and yes, we can show each other ours, as long as we clean them before, and after.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Rich Engle

[pippi]

I never trusted Daunce's posts and find her to be fluffy fodder that looks good but says nothing.

- do a search if you need to see the ugly details about my 'relationship' with him/her

(I have been severely trounced, insulted and compared to a cartoon character (hi msk )

-so be it, I may have attacked her without much style but it came from the gut.

I have also been amazed at how many were so charmed by her way with language that they ignored her intent. I also think she is a detriment to this forum but it is not my place to decide that.

She pushes for attention, she has used me to push herself forward and now she is using others as well.

I think GHS has a very good point about her intentions, why would she want to make a home here among wolves? (Even when most are willing victims)

[George H. Smith]

I remain surprised at the amount of tolerance for socialists folks in the OL community. No real in-group, out-group red-button festivities, no runnings on a rail outa town, no SOLO style invectathons and purges.

We Canuckistani socialists must bear what scuffles come our way here. I am surprised we don't get slapped around more. Maybe we trade something in return for forebearance. Our tepid, inane, cleverish fumblings offer faint humour, creaky irony and other feeble things. We may be a foil for the striving productive free thinking friends of liberty. Our northern mumbles give contrast to the firm and fruitful discussions.

Once in a while though, you got to clap on the six gun and say, "Carol, you support the collectivist forces. Your kind put a gun to my head and order me to obey. How long were you thinking of hanging around Dodge?"

Years ago, while attending an ISIL conference in Canada, I went with the late Vince Miller to a fast food joint. While we were standing at the counter looking at the menu, a young fellow behind the counter noticed our name tags, which also said "International Society for Individual Liberty." He had apparently read the lengthy (and snarky) article about us that had appeared in the local paper the previous day, and the conversation went like this:

Canadian: "Are you with that group that thinks people should own guns?"

Vince: "We think people have the right to own guns. We believe in individual freedom."

Canadian: "We Canadians don't like that freedom stuff."

Btw, these "news" clips from "Canadian Bacon" are very funny:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J0R5DTHcmGU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ghs

[pippi]

They really said they dont like that freedom stuff? How repulsive

Dont engage the dunce though, she loves canada references, they are like cat treats for her-they all circle back to her self absorption.

have fun you all

I guess I am just a dumb ole bumpkin, I dont talk pretty but yee haw - I pay my taxes!!!

Edited March 2, 2011 by pippi

[pippi]

I remain surprised at the amount of tolerance for socialists folks in the OL community.

Me too and ya I have a problem with them.

[Philip Coates]

> We Canuckistani socialists must bear what scuffles come our way here. I am surprised we don't get slapped around more. [WSS]

I belong to three "great books" discussion groups. The most well-read, well-informed two people there are both socialists (or at least liberals). The more right-wing dudes have read a lot of science-fiction and thrillers but not Dickens or Shakespeare. The liberals have read widely, read a lot of literature, for example. I get to the point where I know the routine of the others, can predict what they will say, and find them boring.

I generally find people whose reading has been too narrow or too centered in one reading area boring. And too often, because or that narrowness, often perpetually angry and alienated and "put upon". Too many Oists are that way. Sort of like rednecks or hillbillies.

That's not to say that I like to discuss politics or economics or try to convert socialists. Been there, done that and am much more interested in literature, the arts, etc.

(Aside: Where you're at can legitimately differ. I can understand how for GHS, who is much more centered on non-fiction, on political and economic topics, and the etiology of those ideas, it might be grating to interact with someone who is strongly opposed. But for me, I'm burned out to a large extent with discussing those topics: I haven't had a political discussion yet with my two resident liberals in my GBD groups...or with those in the two classes I teach, and I doubt that I will want to.)

On this site and others, similarly, sometimes I find those on the left have had more interest in or majored in or are more well read in the humanities (compared to, say, the techno-geeks or physics mavens).

In general, I like to interact with those who are not mean-spirited or nasty and have thoughtful things to say and/or are clever or humorous.

I'll quite often prefer to interact with a left-leaning person who has at least one of those qualities over an Objectivist/libertarian snarkster or insult-slinger any day.

,,,,,

(Why are some liberals here? Let me see if I can express it in elevated, elegant, and cultured language: WGAFF - Who Gives a Flying Fuck?)

Edited March 2, 2011 by Philip Coates

[George H. Smith]

In general, I like to interact with those who are not mean-spirited or nasty and have thoughtful things to say and/or are clever or humorous.

This is because you are a swell guy. Most of us on OL like to interact with people who are mean-spirited and nasty, who have nothing thoughtful to say, and who lack a sense of humor.

Ghs

[Jonathan]

We Canuckistani socialists must bear what scuffles come our way here.

Do you know why the northern states are so windy?

Because Canada sucks.

J

[jriggenbach]

In general, I like to interact with those who are not mean-spirited or nasty and have thoughtful things to say and/or are clever or humorous.

This is because you are a swell guy. Most of us on OL like to interact with people who are mean-spirited and nasty, who have nothing thoughtful to say, and who lack a sense of humor.

Ghs

If you have nothing good to say about anybody, come sit by me.

JR

[Brant Gaede]

In general, I like to interact with those who are not mean-spirited or nasty and have thoughtful things to say and/or are clever or humorous.

This is because you are a swell guy. Most of us on OL like to interact with people who are mean-spirited and nasty, who have nothing thoughtful to say, and who lack a sense of humor.

Ghs

If you have nothing good to say about anybody, come sit by me.

JR

Alice! How we miss her!

--Brant

"The secret of eternal youth is arrested development."

Edited March 2, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Philip Coates]

> Most of us on OL like to interact with people who are mean-spirited and nasty, who have nothing thoughtful to say, and who lack a sense of humor. [GHS]

I know you meant that as a joke, but . . . . . (check the archives) . . .

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

From what I have been able to detect, there are some large differences between what the Canadian socialists that post here understand as socialism and what the real hardcore left-wing socialists understand by that term.

Here is a video prepared by Christian Hartsock on Big Government: A Brave New Plan for America, the World, and Noodles: My Time in Madison, Wisconsin.

This is about the participation of organized leftist organizations in the Wisconsin troubles. I have not been able to detect anywhere near this kind of indoctrination in the Canadian socialists here.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8M3DLGP4UKQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(I originally caught this on The Blaze here: Young Madison Socialist Reveals Popular 'Noodles & Company' Restaurant Is Actually Harsh 'Dictatorship'.)

Here is a quote by Hartsock (from the first link above):

This was not just a legislative battle in Wisconsin. The SEIU, AFSCME, SDS, AFL-CIO, WIAC, NEA and other national and international "progressive" groups had all shown up to invest their capital into this crisis—inspiring me to investigate what their anticipated dividends might be.

One such shareholder (I hope they'll forgive these analogies), is a group called the International Socialist Organization (ISO), a Trotskyite international organization that has been committed to organizing unions, and particularly students, since 1976.

As a friendly and curious participant (it didn't hurt to mention I'd grown up in the San Francisco Bay Area).I attended a strategy meeting of theirs in the social studies building of the University of Wisconsin, a meeting titled "From Cairo to Madison: The Global Reemergence of Class Struggle." The keynote speakers were Phil Gasper, Ph.D, professor emeritus at Notre Dame, Madison Area Technical College dean and editor of the annotated Communist Manifesto, and Mike Imbrogno, executive committee member of AFSCME Local 171 and delegate to the South Central Federation of Labor.

They discussed the need to co-opt the Madison protests into a global struggle against the monolithic culprit — capitalism. They saw the simultaneous revolutions in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia as no coincidence; the current weeks as their moment — an event they live for, the opportunity for dismantling the capitalist system as a whole via quiet incrementalism — assessing the market economy as a structure that ought not to be brought down by direct demolition, but by discreet, brick-by-brick elimination.

The ideas expressed seemed to all be traceable to a common emotional impetus – a general disdain for "the ruling class" and the free market instead of any sober assessment of economic science. This corroborated a long-held suspicion that "progressive" ideology is predicated on feelings, rather then logic.

I did not show up to this meeting uninvited. The night prior, I had encountered within the Capitol a young man named Rob Lewis, early 20s, an activist with ISO. Kind, bright and friendly, he explained, very eloquently, just what was going on upstairs in that building, and how it ought to be interpreted and addressed from the standpoint of "the workers." He told me he was one, at a local chain restaurant called Noodles. So I asked him how things would be different at Noodles if he had his way, and could successfully implement the ISO vision.

Lewis proceeded to illustrate how the world is made up of "workers," and "capitalists," and how he and his fellow Noodles employees, whom he describes as "the workers," would act as a virtual board of directors, while the owner, the "capitalist" would be kindly offered a seat at the table (socialists are, after all, humanitarians), but would be forced to accept their terms and sit down as a "co-equal," or be simply kicked to the curb.

Aaron Kennedy, the founder of Noodles, grew up on a farm with few to no connections to money. Like my friend Rob, Kennedy also studied at the University of Wisconsin. At 29, while eating at a Chinese restaurant, Kennedy had an idea, and scribbled his business plan on a napkin.

Scraping some money together from his friends and family and maxing out eight credit cards, Kennedy opened the first Noodles in his basement, and then put together a team with whom he'd build and operate 100 Noodles branches all on their own. It is now a $75 million franchise with 240 locations in 18 different states, providing jobs to over 3,000 employees just like Rob. This is what the American Dream looks like.

Under Lewis' vision, however everything Kennedy has worked for would be taken away from him. The status he has earned for himself through his achievements would be reduced to that of one filling out an application for the very business he built from the ground up. Perhaps my imagination is limited, but I at the moment I cannot imagine a greater humiliation. This is what socialism looks like.

I seriously doubt this is what the Canadian socialists on OL have in mind. Setting aside political theory arguments (and the premature nasty accusations that often go with them), I get the feeling they are more about common decency than anything else. I, for one, have no beef with common decency.

I believe they are blessed that no real ugly brutal dictator has achieved power in Canada. When I look from the perspective of someone like them who lives in a generally prosperous and peaceful country, especially when they look on the USA's war record, I see why they might think, "If capitalism is that and what we've got is socialism, I'll take socialism. It's just too easy to be prosperous and peaceful."

I think they see the brutality elsewhere in the world under the banner of socialism where it exists, but I don't think they can relate too well with it because the conceptual referents they grew up with are mostly those of a good life. That's why I believe they get more entertainment from dogmatic haters than disgust. They know it's real conceptually, but it's too remote from their personal experience for strong negative emotions.

(OK. I'm done psychologizing... )

As an aside, with all that noodle stuff in the video and report, I'm trying to make a pun with Noodelfood, but it ain't coming.

Michael