"Atlas Part 1" Commentaries and Reviews

[caroljane]

Dennis, the scene you suggested should have been included had the opposite effect on me from what you expected it to convey, not because it doesn't dramatically illustrate the value of independent judgment, but because it does.

As a non-metallurgist or engineer, I immediately thought:"She studied engineering and looked at tests shown to her by the inventor, a man she wants to sleep with. Would I gamble on her judgment?"

I think such a scene would weaken not strengthen the movie for general audiences.

[caroljane]

> I don't expect you all to write magazine-length analyses. Except of course Phil, from him I need fully referenced and annotated commentary with bibliography and index. I can wait the eight months.

Did you hear the story about how Peikoff complained to a roomful of people about receiving an overly detailed, long-winded series of questions - and everyone knew immediately who it was?

> I can tease Phil without fear until his Hachette is in his hands.

I may then have to do a hachette job on you. Better watch it with these cutting remarks, Daunce. You are axing for it.

Don't worry, Hachette is safe and being guarded by my son's English bulldog puppy who is sleeping on it. Bodie is adorable even though he chewed three keys off my keyboard last time he visited. That breed are just not very bright.He thinks everything, even TV remotes and delicate electronics, are just new toys or somebody's shoe.

Tiiimmberrrrr..!!!

[Dennis Hardin]

If I am turned off by it and not looking forward to the rest of the movies, what does that say for someone that is new to the philosophy when they see it? Not good. I'm sure it will bring in people wanting to understand as it appeals to them on different levels because it makes sense to them but this overall rush of people into the philosophy, I doubt very very very seriously this is going to happen. Honestly, I believe it is going to get bad reviews and may lose money on it. Or they may very well only release it in "select" theaters only but it won't go any further than that and you won't hear much about it after that.

That is a concern that I have had, Angie. It is important that people in the film audience who are unfamiliar with the novel know what the differences are. I do not want people to look at the film and decide that Atlas Shrugged is a novel about people doing lots of weird stuff that makes no sense. How is that going to help Objectivism? In my opinion, we have nothing to lose by being as honest as possible about the quality of the film—and I do believe I have adequate evidence to substantiate the doubts I have expressed. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Thank you for your comments.

[Dennis Hardin]

Dennis, the scene you suggested should have been included had the opposite effect on me from what you expected it to convey, not because it doesn't dramatically illustrate the value of independent judgment, but because it does.

As a non-metallurgist or engineer, I immediately thought:"She studied engineering and looked at tests shown to her by the inventor, a man she wants to sleep with. Would I gamble on her judgment?"

I think such a scene would weaken not strengthen the movie for general audiences.

Daunce,

The theme of Atlas Shrugged is "the role of the mind in man's existence." A scene that "dramatically illustrates the value of independent judgment" would be unlikely to weaken the intended impact of the movie on its audience.

Having said that, I must admit I am at a loss to make sense of your post. Perhaps that's my failing, and if so I humbly apologize for my denseness.

[CNA]

If I am turned off by it and not looking forward to the rest of the movies, what does that say for someone that is new to the philosophy when they see it? Not good. I'm sure it will bring in people wanting to understand as it appeals to them on different levels because it makes sense to them but this overall rush of people into the philosophy, I doubt very very very seriously this is going to happen. Honestly, I believe it is going to get bad reviews and may lose money on it. Or they may very well only release it in "select" theaters only but it won't go any further than that and you won't hear much about it after that.

That is a concern that I have had, Angie. It is important that people in the film audience who are unfamiliar with the novel know what the differences are. I do not want people to look at the film and decide that Atlas Shrugged is a novel about people doing lots of weird stuff that makes no sense. How is that going to help Objectivism? In my opinion, we have nothing to lose by being as honest as possible about the quality of the film—and I do believe I have adequate evidence to substantiate the doubts I have expressed. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Thank you for your comments.

You hit the nail right on the head with this one. You say WEIRD? Wow, that's an understatement. When Dagny goes to Wyatt's house at night to find his oil ablaze, she goes running somewhat through the house and calling for him. Then scenes flash in and out as she is doing this and showing Galt standing at Wyatt's door the night before and he begins talking but fades out so you don't hear the entire speech, only small bits and pieces of it, which wasn't bad until....Oh, man, Galt then says, "I'm cultivating a society of independent minds or something like that and they live in Atlantis. WHOA....that's weird and serious creepy to word it in such a way like that. It could have been stated something or other of living in a society that's distant, etc., etc., and we call it Atlantis or some such deal. Just something to tone down that whole weird sentence that he said. I know it's not verbatim from the book because that's unlike Rand. But nevertheless, when Galt said it the way he did, there were chuckles and sighs from the audience. It was weird the way it was done and gives that whole movie deal of snatch of the body or whatever that old movie is called where aliens or whatever snatches people up and they're put in pods and cultivated, etc., etc.

I completely agree with you. Honesty is of utmost importance with this, brutally honest, rather than sugarcoating and trying to make it into something it's not. I'm like you and I don't want it to fail. It really needs to be a success, especially in the state the country is in. But man, after what I saw, my hopes have been dashed. Not everyone is going to be happy and I hope I am wrong but honestly I don't have high hopes now.

[CNA]

Well, for some reason I didn’t get invited to the private screening in L.A. (I can’t imagine why. You don't suppose the organizers read OL. . .) But here are two reviews by people who did.

Jeffrey Falk is an “aspiring writer concerned about the state of the world as the Enlightenment fades into the Endarkenment,” and clearly very sympathetic to Objectivism. Despite that, he obviously felt it was very important to discuss the film's numerous flaws, because people who have not read the book need to know what was missing.

The novel is a nonpareil integration of literature and philosophy (including politics). The film could not be much more disappointing in that aspect, and the abstruse motifs of ratiocinative epistemology and laissez-faire economics are largely lost in the slapdash, inadequate translation from script to screen...[The] novel's crucial connection of technology and material progress to the unfettered human mind and free economy is given short shrift...

Here is Falk's review:

Atlas Shrugged Part I : The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Some people have all the luck. John Sexton, who writes for the blog Verum Serum, says he just finished reading the novel two weeks ago. He not only got an invite, he sat at the same table with Nathaniel Branden, and his blog entry includes a picture of Branden with David Kelley. He talks about the experience here:

At the Atlas Shrugged Premiere

And here is his glowing (he really, really liked it!) review:

Atlas Shrugged Part 1 - High Speed Rail Done Right

That's funny, on John Sexton's blog and the second picture of David Kelley, Duncan Scott and Nathaniel Branden, I'm standing right behind David Kelley but can't see much but remember when that pic was taken. I'm waiting for pics to be uploaded and released. I would like copies of some of them if I can. I know when pics were being taken in front of their premiere sign and red carpet and the people that were showing up, of course, took pics of everyone and we were told that the pics would be uploaded to the Atlas website and they would be available for download. I have not stayed up with all the sites or people giving reviews nor have I stayed up on their website as I have distanced myself a bit from it and just honestly too bummed out over it. But does anyone know if any of the screening pics have been uploaded as I would like copies of some of them -- at least the ones that I am in??

Post -- oops, not 2nd picture but the 4th or 5th one down or some such deal..anyway...

Edited February 27, 2011 by CNA

[kiaer.ts]

Thanks for your comments, Angie. I am too tired to say anything coherent right now, but didn't want to log off not having acknowledged them.

[Brant Gaede]

Thanks for your comments, Angie. I am too tired to say anything coherent right now, but didn't want to log off not having acknowledged them.

Wait a minute! Come on back. Your incoherence won't matter. No one will notice anything different!

--Brant

you gotta have faith in yourself

[CNA]

Thanks for your comments, Angie. I am too tired to say anything coherent right now, but didn't want to log off not having acknowledged them.

You're welcome, Ted. Way tired as well and going to bed soon myself.

[Dennis Hardin]

That's funny, on John Sexton's blog and the second picture of David Kelley, Duncan Scott and Nathaniel Branden, I'm standing right behind David Kelley but can't see much but remember when that pic was taken. I'm waiting for pics to be uploaded and released. I would like copies of some of them if I can. I know when pics were being taken in front of their premiere sign and red carpet and the people that were showing up, of course, took pics of everyone and we were told that the pics would be uploaded to the Atlas website and they would be available for download. I have not stayed up with all the sites or people giving reviews nor have I stayed up on their website as I have distanced myself a bit from it and just honestly too bummed out over it. But does anyone know if any of the screening pics have been uploaded as I would like copies of some of them -- at least the ones that I am in??

Post -- oops, not 2nd picture but the 4th or 5th one down or some such deal..anyway...

Well, I did a computer search for "Angie red carpet" and this is what I came up with. . .

Not sure if this is you or not. . .

[9thdoctor]

But man, after what I saw, my hopes have been dashed.

Are you sure you saw the final cut? Did they have people fill out questionnaires afterwards? They’re probably still tinkering with it.

[Brant Gaede]

That's funny, on John Sexton's blog and the second picture of David Kelley, Duncan Scott and Nathaniel Branden, I'm standing right behind David Kelley but can't see much but remember when that pic was taken. I'm waiting for pics to be uploaded and released. I would like copies of some of them if I can. I know when pics were being taken in front of their premiere sign and red carpet and the people that were showing up, of course, took pics of everyone and we were told that the pics would be uploaded to the Atlas website and they would be available for download. I have not stayed up with all the sites or people giving reviews nor have I stayed up on their website as I have distanced myself a bit from it and just honestly too bummed out over it. But does anyone know if any of the screening pics have been uploaded as I would like copies of some of them -- at least the ones that I am in??

Post -- oops, not 2nd picture but the 4th or 5th one down or some such deal..anyway...

Well, I did a computer search for "Angie red carpet" and this is what I came up with. . .

Not sure if this is you or not. . .

What an invitation to be stripped naked and incessantly ravished!

--Brant

let my hands go where they may from the top down!

[CNA]

I do not want people to look at the film and decide that Atlas Shrugged is a novel about people doing lots of weird stuff that makes no sense. How is that going to help Objectivism?

I don't think it is going to help at all. Being dishonest doesn't help in the least bit. It only makes the situation worse and you have more to lose with evasion and denial and trying to make something into what it's not. Honesty is where it is at, brutally honest, and will only help you and benefit you in the long run. Deal with what you are seeing and try to fix it if you see something wrong. Before the movie began and given it has not been released nationally yet, I would have loved to have heard from the Producer as he was speaking of something to the effect of, "Hey, this is pretty much the final cut and we are asking everyone to please fill out the survey and be brutally honest in your opinions with what you saw. You can remain anonymous if you wish and not identify who you are on the survey but we are asking for nothing but honesty." But this was not done. It would have given the Producers and the like to get a better idea from an audience of Objectivists of what they truly thought of the movie. If the surveys come back and 90 percent have pointed out issues, similar issues, that it would make them step back and think, okay, we need to work on this and maybe change this before the release date and/or push the release date back because we need to invest a bit more time into it and trying to make it better, more appealing, to our target audience and wanting to bring in more people into the philosophy. If the survey comes back and only 30 percent expressed issues and dislike, then whatever, can't please everyone.

Not everyone is going to be happy with the movie and there will be those that are completely happy with it. Again, I hope the ones that did not like it is a very very small group and it does extremely well. Perhaps my taste in movies is not similar to others. But my issue is this not only did I not like the movie but others were making similar comments underneath their breath of their disappointment and so forth. I went into the bathroom after the showing and there were two women in the bathroom that were talking about the movie and expressing the same unhappiness that I had. One person, I don't know who the person is, who was sitting relatively close to me said after the movie was over -- they stood up and looked over at me and said with a look of concern on his face, "This ain't it." This is what I am talking about and people expressing such comments underneath the breathe and their disappointment in ways that speaks volumes but not speaking up and saying, hey, you guys, I didn't like it because of such and such reason. I was asked point blank right afterwards when standing up to leave of, "What did you think?" I'm not going to lie and I said, "No. I didn't like it."

Anyway, honesty is where it is at but it seems those that do not carry a favorable review and what I heard coming from some people that may be connected with various groups and so forth are not coming out publicly and saying anything. But anyway...

[CNA]

That's funny, on John Sexton's blog and the second picture of David Kelley, Duncan Scott and Nathaniel Branden, I'm standing right behind David Kelley but can't see much but remember when that pic was taken. I'm waiting for pics to be uploaded and released. I would like copies of some of them if I can. I know when pics were being taken in front of their premiere sign and red carpet and the people that were showing up, of course, took pics of everyone and we were told that the pics would be uploaded to the Atlas website and they would be available for download. I have not stayed up with all the sites or people giving reviews nor have I stayed up on their website as I have distanced myself a bit from it and just honestly too bummed out over it. But does anyone know if any of the screening pics have been uploaded as I would like copies of some of them -- at least the ones that I am in??

Post -- oops, not 2nd picture but the 4th or 5th one down or some such deal..anyway...

Well, I did a computer search for "Angie red carpet" and this is what I came up with. . .

Not sure if this is you or not. . .

Thank you for the compliment but, uh, no, that's not me. LOL I don't have long hair anymore. It's actually quite short and for the most part blonde now -- heavy blonde highlights.

[CNA]

But man, after what I saw, my hopes have been dashed.

Are you sure you saw the final cut? Did they have people fill out questionnaires afterwards? They’re probably still tinkering with it.

Ninth,

Yes, we were told before the viewing that what we were about to see was the final cut of the movie and surveys by some were filled out afterwards. I did not fill out a survey. I wanted to get out of there as quickly as I could which I did leave pretty fast afterwards and not stinking around so we could go to dinner. After I left the actual theater, I went straight to the girls' room. BUT, I've been to other premieres before and being told that it was pretty much the final movie but once released nationally and seeing the movie again, it had been changed here and there but nothing major and the overall formatting of the movie if you will was still intact. I'm sure they may do tweaks here and there but nothing of substance and overhaul if you will. I'm sure the same issues that I saw will still be there as it just wasn't one or two scenes that had issues. The issues spanned the entire movie but will see once it's released.

[CNA]

I do want to say this though in regards to the survey afterwards: I was not asked to fill the survey out. It seems in the people that were close to me coming out of the theater both men and women the men were primarily the ones being asked to fill it out in what I observed. As I took a step off the last stair coming down from the theater, there was a young girl about 5 feet from me offering the surveys to some people. She looked right at me and did not offer but offered to the gentleman behind me. At that point, I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't want to stay in the least bit. I went straight to the bathroom and did not speak with anyone but was watching people and listening as I passed and headed for the restroom. After coming out of the restroom, I stayed for about 20 minutes maybe and then got out of there.

[caroljane]

Dennis, the scene you suggested should have been included had the opposite effect on me from what you expected it to convey, not because it doesn't dramatically illustrate the value of independent judgment, but because it does.

As a non-metallurgist or engineer, I immediately thought:"She studied engineering and looked at tests shown to her by the inventor, a man she wants to sleep with. Would I gamble on her judgment?"

I think such a scene would weaken not strengthen the movie for general audiences.

Daunce,

The theme of Atlas Shrugged is "the role of the mind in man's existence." A scene that "dramatically illustrates the value of independent judgment" would be unlikely to weaken the intended impact of the movie on its audience.

Having said that, I must admit I am at a loss to make sense of your post. Perhaps that's my failing, and if so I humbly apologize for my denseness.

It was probably my denseness, so it's for me to apologize. I was comparing the viewer's independent judgment on "Does Dagny's judgment make sense?" to Dagny's judgment in the scene. I would want the viewer to agree with Dagny, not feel doubtful about her qualifications to risk lives based on the evidence presented. Then again, I just read the dialogue; I didn't see it. Maybe I wouldn't have noticed it in watching the movie.

[9thdoctor]

She looked right at me and did not offer but offered to the gentleman behind me. At that point, I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't want to stay in the least bit.

Sounds like you had “come not hither” body language. It’s hard to believe they wouldn’t want your opinion, or that they were profiling by sex or something like that.

Anyway, there are diverse views being aired. That’s fine, only time will tell. I'll be going to see it.

As I recall, Troy was given a new musical score after being shown to one test audience, with maybe 2 months to go before the scheduled premiere. Meaning, when in Hollywood they say "final", it's not really final.

[kiaer.ts]

She looked right at me and did not offer but offered to the gentleman behind me. At that point, I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't want to stay in the least bit.

Sounds like you had "come not hither" body language. It's hard to believe they wouldn't want your opinion, or that they were profiling by sex or something like that.

Anyway, there are diverse views being aired. That's fine, only time will tell. I'll be going to see it.

As I recall, Troy was given a new musical score after being shown to one test audience, with maybe 2 months to go before the scheduled premiere. Meaning, when in Hollywood they say "final", it's not really final.

Ah, yes, Troy, that instant classic.

[9thdoctor]

Ah, yes, Troy, that instant classic.

Well, let’s not start with the thread drift. I, for one, liked Troy well enough. Now, if Atlas Shrugged grosses as much as Troy did…no way. Maybe we should have a thread for predicting the domestic gross, see who gets closest. I say $40-$50 million, and I consider that optimistic. I think that’s about 1/10th of The Passion of the Christ’s take, for some reason that sounds about right.

[CNA]

She looked right at me and did not offer but offered to the gentleman behind me. At that point, I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't want to stay in the least bit.

Sounds like you had “come not hither” body language. It’s hard to believe they wouldn’t want your opinion, or that they were profiling by sex or something like that.

Anyway, there are diverse views being aired. That’s fine, only time will tell. I'll be going to see it.

As I recall, Troy was given a new musical score after being shown to one test audience, with maybe 2 months to go before the scheduled premiere. Meaning, when in Hollywood they say "final", it's not really final.

I should have elaborated a bit more when I responded to your post. I did not mean to imply sexism in how it may have been viewed from my response. Statistically speaking, the philosophy draws in more men than it does women so there's two possibilities that I'm thinking of now and that is her assumption that I was more of a "date" for one of the men who was an Objectivist there or I would not doubt one bit that I had that don't-approach-me body language and this being obvious to others and my reaction as I was disappointed, unhappy, and wanted to get out of there. I know when I passed her and observing her out of the corner of my eye as I passed right by her there was obvious reluctance on her part to approach me and potentially ask. So instead of being confronted with such a person being obviously disappointed, she went to the gentleman behind me.

Yes, you are right, there may be tweaks here and there to the movie before it is released and if I see the movie again in the theaters, given my past experiences with screenings and such, I will probably note changes that were made before the actual "final" release. But the overall movie and how it is presented is pretty much final but tweaks here and there I'm sure will be done. If there was an overhaul of the movie, I doubt very seriously unless long tiring hours are put in to go through footage and/or spend more money to bring people out on location and reshoot scenes, etc.

I haven't stayed up on all the reviews that are coming out but what I have been told is there's not many O'ists that are expressing their dislike but I'm basing this on what I've been told as I've distanced myself from all of this quite a bit. I don't have much of an interest in non-O'ist views right now because even if the movie was a blockbuster and one of the greatest movies released they will hate it because of what it represents. There is one person who is an O'ist that I know who saw the movie before I did who holds a far worse opinion than I do but has refused to publicly speak about the movie which I completely understand where he is coming from and protecting that which they value and I won't say anymore. I have no doubts that the reviews are varied as is obvious from some of the reviews that have been posted up to now on this thread. But again, time will tell and not every O'ist is going to be jumping up and down with joy at what they saw. I still encourage those to see it to make their own judgment on the movie and whether or not they really like it as well as making a judgment on what they view is going to help or potentially do more damage to the philosophy and helping to bring more awareness.

Angie

[CNA]

Ah, yes, Troy, that instant classic.

Well, let’s not start with the thread drift. I, for one, liked Troy well enough. Now, if Atlas Shrugged grosses as much as Troy did…no way. Maybe we should have a thread for predicting the domestic gross, see who gets closest. I say $40-$50 million, and I consider that optimistic. I think that’s about 1/10th of The Passion of the Christ’s take, for some reason that sounds about right.

Again, I truly hope it does well and grosses quite a bit, much needed right now as I've stated in prior posts....enough to set up Part 2 and financing it and they don't take a loss but we'll all see very soon and how it does.

[Dennis Hardin]

I do not want people to look at the film and decide that Atlas Shrugged is a novel about people doing lots of weird stuff that makes no sense. How is that going to help Objectivism?

I don't think it is going to help at all. Being dishonest doesn't help in the least bit. It only makes the situation worse and you have more to lose with evasion and denial and trying to make something into what it's not. Honesty is where it is at, brutally honest, and will only help you and benefit you in the long run.

Not everyone is going to be happy with the movie and there will be those that are completely happy with it. Again, I hope the ones that did not like it is a very very small group and it does extremely well. Perhaps my taste in movies is not similar to others. But my issue is this not only did I not like the movie but others were making similar comments underneath their breath of their disappointment and so forth. I went into the bathroom after the showing and there were two women in the bathroom that were talking about the movie and expressing the same unhappiness that I had. One person, I don't know who the person is, who was sitting relatively close to me said after the movie was over -- they stood up and looked over at me and said with a look of concern on his face, "This ain't it." This is what I am talking about and people expressing such comments underneath the breathe and their disappointment in ways that speaks volumes but not speaking up and saying, hey, you guys, I didn't like it because of such and such reason. I was asked point blank right afterwards when standing up to leave of, "What did you think?" I'm not going to lie and I said, "No. I didn't like it."

Anyway, honesty is where it is at but it seems those that do not carry a favorable review and what I heard coming from some people that may be connected with various groups and so forth are not coming out publicly and saying anything. But anyway...

I haven't stayed up on all the reviews that are coming out but what I have been told is there's not many O'ists that are expressing their dislike but I'm basing this on what I've been told as I've distanced myself from all of this quite a bit. I don't have much of an interest in non-O'ist views right now because even if the movie was a blockbuster and one of the greatest movies released they will hate it because of what it represents. There is one person who is an O'ist that I know who saw the movie before I did who holds a far worse opinion than I do but has refused to publicly speak about the movie which I completely understand where he is coming from and protecting that which they value and I won't say anymore.

Angie

Angie,

Your comments are fascinating—not only regarding the movie itself but the attitude of fear which you personally witnessed: Objectivists are afraid to speak up and criticize the film. You would expect that coming form the ARI crowd—if Peikoff had orchestrated the thing and was brandishing his Don Quixote sword--but this pressure to either praise the film or shut up is emanating from the so-called “tolerant” wing of Objectivism.

Astonishing, in a way. I cannot thank you enough for your candor.

Dennis

[Dennis Hardin]

Well, I did a computer search for "Angie red carpet" and this is what I came up with. . .

Not sure if this is you or not. . .

What an invitation to be stripped naked and incessantly ravished!

--Brant

let my hands go where they may from the top down!

Thank you for the compliment but, uh, no, that's not me. LOL I don't have long hair anymore. It's actually quite short and for the most part blonde now -- heavy blonde highlights.

Well, how disheartening. Sorry, Brant. Her hair is shorter than that. With blonde highlights. I'm sure you're as disappointed as I am.

(I know this will come as a shock, but we weren't looking at your hair.)

[Selene]

Yep, she has a beautiful set of eyes.