Wisconsin

[pippi]

MADISON, Wis. – Faced with a near-certain Republican victory that would end a half-century of collective bargaining for public workers, Wisconsin Democrats retaliated with the only weapon they had left: They fled.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

Supposedly over 25,000 protesters showed up at the state capital to protest modest cuts in union benefits and being denied their bargaining power as a union.

I say good, I was a goverment employee as a kid and I was paid minimum wage. Working for the state/government was never desired when I was younger, the pay was just way too low.

Now the pay and pensions are way beyond the private sector. It is wrong and the protesters in Wisconsin are being selfish.

IMHO

Pippi

Edited February 18, 2011 by pippi

[caroljane]

MADISON, Wis. – Faced with a near-certain Republican victory that would end a half-century of collective bargaining for public workers, Wisconsin Democrats retaliated with the only weapon they had left: They fled.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

Supposedly over 25,000 protesters showed up at the state capital to protest modest cuts in union benefits and being denied their bargaining power as a union.

I say good, I was a goverment employee as a kid and I was paid minimum wage. Working for the state/government was never desired when I was younger, the pay was just way too low.

Now the pay and pensions are way beyond the private sector. It is wrong and the protesters in Wisconsin are being selfish.

IMHO

Pippi

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

[Mike11]

The Glory of Galt shines upon them! May they crush the putrid bodies of their enemies!

[Selene]

Pippi:

Apparently, these are the average salaries for teachers in Wisconsin according to Teacher World

• Green Bay: $55,110
• Kenosha: $68,400
• Madison: $50,770
• Milwaukee: $54,620
• Racine: $49,710

Sources:

(1) Milwaukee Public Schools

(2) Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development

(3) Wisconsin's Worknet

(4) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

These salaries appear not to include the "value" of the pension, health and benefit packages which can range from 10 to 20 thousand additional dollars.

As the right Reverend Wright₁ has said, as Malcom X₂ has said [in response to a question about Kennedy's [JFK's] death after one of Malcom's fiery speeches*] and as the maxim₃ explains...public service unions chickens, have come home to roost!

¹Shortly after making this speech, Malcolm was asked his opinion on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the previous month. Malcolm replied that Kennedy "never foresaw that the chickens would come home to roost so soon" – the reason some call this Malcolm's "Chickens Come Home To Roost" speech. The remark set off a firestorm, leading Elijah Muhammad to sentence his spokesman to 90 days of silence. Malcolm formally broke with the NOI in March 1964, to found the Muslim Mosque, Inc. (See the Official Malcolm X Web Site.)

²http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXDWLDvxth8

³"In English, the proverb goes back to Chaucer's 'Parson's Tale' (c 1390). It was also

know to Terence (about 190-159 B.C.) First attested in the United States in the 'Life of Jefferson S. Batkins' . The

proverb is found in varying forms: Curses, like chickens, come home to roost; Sooner or later chickens, come home to

roost..." From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York,

1996)."

Adam

Post Script: Does anyone believe that O'biwan could have been in this man's church for twenty (20) years and not heard or remembered such a powerful speaker as the right Reverend Wright?

[caroljane]

Pippi:

Apparently, these are the average salaries for teachers in Wisconsin according to Teacher World

• Green Bay: $55,110
• Kenosha: $68,400
• Madison: $50,770
• Milwaukee: $54,620
• Racine: $49,710

Sources:

(1) Milwaukee Public Schools

(2) Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development

(3) Wisconsin's Worknet

(4) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

These salaries appear not to include the "value" of the pension, health and benefit packages which can range from 10 to 20 thousand additional dollars.

As the right Reverend Wright₁ has said, as Malcom X₂ has said [in response to a question about Kennedy's [JFK's] death after one of Malcom's fiery speeches*] and as the maxim₃ explains...public service unions chickens, have come home to roost!

¹Shortly after making this speech, Malcolm was asked his opinion on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the previous month. Malcolm replied that Kennedy "never foresaw that the chickens would come home to roost so soon" – the reason some call this Malcolm's "Chickens Come Home To Roost" speech. The remark set off a firestorm, leading Elijah Muhammad to sentence his spokesman to 90 days of silence. Malcolm formally broke with the NOI in March 1964, to found the Muslim Mosque, Inc. (See the Official Malcolm X Web Site.)

²http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXDWLDvxth8

³"In English, the proverb goes back to Chaucer's 'Parson's Tale' (c 1390). It was also

know to Terence (about 190-159 B.C.) First attested in the United States in the 'Life of Jefferson S. Batkins' . The

proverb is found in varying forms: Curses, like chickens, come home to roost; Sooner or later chickens, come home to

roost..." From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York,

1996)."

Adam

Post Script: Does anyone believe that O'biwan could have been in this man's church for twenty (20) years and not heard or remembered such a powerful speaker as the right Reverend Wright?

Adam, the salaries I understand. They are well deserved.

The rest of your post I don't. I know you don't like obama,I get that, but of your chicken hypothesis I just cannot understand One.Single.Word.

[pippi]

Adam, the salaries I understand. They are well deserved.

They are well deserved depending on how well the INDIVIDUAL performs their job, making a blanket statement that they are 'well deserved' because they got a teaching certificate is just plain lazy.

[pippi]

Pippi:

Apparently, these are the average salaries for teachers in Wisconsin according to Teacher World

• Green Bay: $55,110
• Kenosha: $68,400
• Madison: $50,770
• Milwaukee: $54,620
• Racine: $49,710

Sources:

(1) Milwaukee Public Schools

(2) Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development

(3) Wisconsin's Worknet

(4) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

These salaries appear not to include the "value" of the pension, health and benefit packages which can range from 10 to 20 thousand additional dollars.

Also don't forget they only work 9 months out of the year. The unions got greedy and need to be dissolved or reworked. They don't deserve well padded pensions, benefits and salaries if they are breaking the back of the state they work in.

[Selene]

Carol:

This Wisconsin public union debacle is a watershed moment in American politics,

The essence of the "chickens coming home to roost," as you probably know, stems from our agrarian past, wherein, chickens, unfenced, scratch around in the barnyard, fields and woods during the day and then return to the hen house at night.

The saying makes a comparison of the chickens coming back to a person's bad deeds coming back to haunt them or pay them back.

The public sector unions in the United States have, through their thug leadership, browbeaten unsustainable contracts as political payoffs for their electoral support.

The unjustified assault on the taxpayers of Wisconsin by these thugs, many of whom have been bussed in by SIEU, ACORN and other political unions is a major political mistake by O'biwan and his public sector purple shirts.

The hard facts are that massive cuts have to be made and they have to be made now.

I happen to be a great admirer of Malcom X. I was one of the few white people who was even allowed near him in the '60's, in Harlem. The right Reverend Wright was a major issue in the O'biwan campaign. The pivotal speech that triggered his public relationship with O'biwan was the speech that I posted in the video and that speech had that dramatic line about the chickens coming home to roost.

Malcom X got into a whole lot of trouble because of that same reference.

So are the public sector unions in this despicable, ungrateful and illegal action in Wisconsin.

So that is why I wove them all together.

Adam

[caroljane]

Carol:

This Wisconsin public union debacle is a watershed moment in American politics,

The essence of the "chickens coming home to roost," as you probably know, stems from our agrarian past, wherein, chickens, unfenced, scratch around in the barnyard, fields and woods during the day and then return to the hen house at night.

The saying makes a comparison of the chickens coming back to a person's bad deeds coming back to haunt them or pay them back.

The public sector unions in the United States have, through their thug leadership, browbeaten unsustainable contracts as political payoffs for their electoral support.

The unjustified assault on the taxpayers of Wisconsin by these thugs, many of whom have been bussed in by SIEU, ACORN and other political unions is a major political mistake by O'biwan and his public sector purple shirts.

The hard facts are that massive cuts have to be made and they have to be made now.

I happen to be a great admirer of Malcom X. I was one of the few white people who was even allowed near him in the '60's, in Harlem. The right Reverend Wright was a major issue in the O'biwan campaign. The pivotal speech that triggered his public relationship with O'biwan was the speech that I posted in the video and that speech had that dramatic line about the chickens coming home to roost.

Malcom X got into a whole lot of trouble because of that same reference.

So are the public sector unions in this despicable, ungrateful and illegal action in Wisconsin.

So that is why I wove them all together.

Adam

Adam,

Thanks for the explanation. I admire Malcolm X too. I think if he could see what Islamist extremism has come to worldwide, he would weep.

[Selene]

Carol:

That would be after his Hadj to Mecca which was transformational for him and possibly the major reason that he had to be assassinated by the competing Muslim brotherhood in his particular organization.

What is not spoken about and one of the major attractions that drew me to him beyond his great speaking ability was his serious advocacy of black capitalism.

"He called for a struggle of both black and white people, not black people alone. "When the day comes when the whites who are really fed-up — I don't mean these jive whites who pose as liberals... — learn how to establish the proper type of communication with those uptown [in Harlem] who are fed-up, and they get some co-ordinated action going, you'll get some changes... And it will take both."

He consistently lectured black folk that they were in a capitalist society and therefore, they needed to use that paradigm. Open black banks in black communities. Invest in your own communities. Police your own communities. Respect your own women. Respect your own body. Don't pollute your body with alcohol and drugs.

Now, he would easily have used a socialist model to advance his people, but he was a realist.

Adam

[Mike11]

I feel like a racist but when I read "respect your women" my brain heard, "Move Bitch! Get out the way!"

[william.scherk]

This Wisconsin public union debacle is a watershed moment in American politics [ . . . ] public sector unions [ . . . ] unjustified assault on the taxpayers of Wisconsin [ . . . ] Reverend Wright [ . . . ] chickens coming home to roost [ . . . ] whole lot of trouble [ . . . ] despicable, ungrateful and illegal action [ . . . ] I wove them all together.

And Malcolm X. Carol, I give you the shorter, comprehensible version.

But, who gives a fig what politically correct Olers think? Here's someone that has her fingers on the puise of real Americans, and who will use the full power of Facebook to let the world know that the revolution in Tunisia Wisconson is not just thugs and hired goons of Mubarak Muslim Brotherhood leftists and/or Soros foreign media and their minions.

Fox News: Palin: Wis. Unions Must Be 'Willing to Sacrifice

MADISON, Wis. -- Sarah Palin says union members protesting Wisconsin Republicans' plan to help balance the state's budget by cutting collective bargaining rights are taking up "the wrong fight at the wrong time."

Palin weighed in on the debate in a Friday night posting on her Facebook page but didn't indicate whether she would join weekend conservative counter-protests organized by groups including the Tea Party Patriots and Americans for Prosperity.

In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."

Edited February 19, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

He who blinks first lost...

"Union leaders offer concessions

Top leaders of two of Wisconsin's largest public employee unions announced they are willing to accept the financial concessions called for in Walker's plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.

Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, and Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24, said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin's budget gap."

Wisconsin State Journal

Additional demands that should be on the negotiating table:

1) Docking the State Senators ten (10) days pay for each day they evaded their duty to be present at the State Capital;

2) Formally, sanctioning each State State Senator in the well of the State Legislature individually;

3) Docking each teacher and administrator a minimum of one (1) days pay for each day they called in sick and appeared at the demonstration rather than taking a personal day;

4) Open an investigation into fraudulent doctors notes that are alleged to have been given out at the rallies;

5) Open any additional investigations for any union leadership that conspired to defraud the taxpayers of Wisconsin in concert with other actors.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Selene

[william.scherk]

The Christian Science Monitor probes changing US attitudes toward unions, using Pew data.

In one survey taken early this month, the Pew Research Center asked a cross-section of Americans whether their view of labor unions is favorable or unfavorable.

Although the share of respondents taking some form of favorable view (45 percent) was slightly larger than the camp with unfavorable views (42 percent), support for unions has clearly ebbed over the past decade. When Pew asked the same poll question in 1999, the margin was 59 percent "favorable" to 36 percent "unfavorable."

Moreover, deeply held views of unions are more likely to be negative (17 percent say their view is "very unfavorable") than positive (11 percent say "very favorable). The opposite was the case as recently as 2007.

At the same time, the poll underscored views that don't tend toward either extreme.

Asked about "when you hear of a disagreement between state or local governments and unions that represent government workers," more Americans say their first reaction is to side with the union (44 percent) than with state or local governments (38 percent). And substantially more Americans see union contracts as ensuring that workers are "treated fairly" than as giving workers an "unfair advantage."

[pippi]

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

Where is the virtue? Please explain.

vir·tu·ous=

–adjective

1.

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life

[caroljane]

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

Where is the virtue? Please explain.

vir·tu·ous=

–adjective

1.

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life

In "The Virtue of Selfishness", by Ayn Rand, the virtues of seeking and receiving the highest rewards for one's productive activity are explained. These virtues trump "the greater good" such as the financial health of a state, for example.

Edited February 20, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Selene]

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

Where is the virtue? Please explain.

vir·tu·ous=

–adjective

1.

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life

In "The Virtue of Selfishness", by Ayn Rand, the virtues of seeking and receiving the highest rewards for one's productive activity are explained. These virtues trump "the greater good" such as the financial health of a state, for example.

Carol:

I do not think you are representing the "virtue" and "selfishness" of the public employees union the way Ayn meant the concept.

"The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and upholds rational selfishness—which means: the values required for man’s survival qua man—which means: the values required for human survival—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial practice of human sacrifices, have never discovered an industrial society and can conceive of no self-interest but that of grabbing the loot of the moment.

The Objectivist ethics holds that human good does not require human sacrifices and cannot be achieved by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. It holds that the rational interests of men do not clash—that there is no conflict of interests among men who do not desire the unearned, who do not make sacrifices nor accept them, who deal with one another as traders, giving value for value."

The issue is not the financial health of the state, the issue is the theft at the point of the state's gun to further extort tax dollars from the taxpayers to pay for an unsustainable whim which was grabbed by the public sector unions without seriously considering the future economic consequences.

I have been a teacher, I have been a school board member and the public educational system is economically flawed. Moreover, in Wisconsin, as in a number of other states, the union is a closed shop. You have to be a member. That concept is anti-freedom and anti individual.

We have a serious problem in America. California, New York, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania are basically bankrupt. In an almost crazy contradiction, these are amongst the wealthiest state in the Union!

This is why the Wisconsin confrontation is a watershed moment for my country.

Adam

[Selene]

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

Where is the virtue? Please explain.

vir·tu·ous=

–adjective

1.

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life

In "The Virtue of Selfishness", by Ayn Rand, the virtues of seeking and receiving the highest rewards for one's productive activity are explained. These virtues trump "the greater good" such as the financial health of a state, for example.

Carol:

I do not think you are representing the "virtue" and "selfishness" of the public employees union the way Ayn meant the concept.

"The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and upholds rational selfishness—which means: the values required for man’s survival qua man—which means: the values required for human survival—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial practice of human sacrifices, have never discovered an industrial society and can conceive of no self-interest but that of grabbing the loot of the moment.

The Objectivist ethics holds that human good does not require human sacrifices and cannot be achieved by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. It holds that the rational interests of men do not clash—that there is no conflict of interests among men who do not desire the unearned, who do not make sacrifices nor accept them, who deal with one another as traders, giving value for value."

The issue is not the financial health of the state, the issue is the theft at the point of the state's gun to further extort tax dollars from the taxpayers to pay for an unsustainable whim which was grabbed by the public sector unions without seriously considering the future economic consequences.

I have been a teacher, I have been a school board member and the public educational system is economically flawed. Moreover, in Wisconsin, as in a number of other states, the union is a closed shop. You have to be a member. That concept is anti-freedom and anti individual.

We have a serious problem in America. California, New York, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania are basically bankrupt. In an almost crazy contradiction, these are amongst the wealthiest state in the Union!

This is why the Wisconsin confrontation is a watershed moment for my country.

Adam

[caroljane]

You bet they're being selfish! And virtuous.

Where is the virtue? Please explain.

vir·tu·ous=

–adjective

1.

conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life

In "The Virtue of Selfishness", by Ayn Rand, the virtues of seeking and receiving the highest rewards for one's productive activity are explained. These virtues trump "the greater good" such as the financial health of a state, for example.

Carol:

I do not think you are representing the "virtue" and "selfishness" of the public employees union the way Ayn meant the concept.

"The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and upholds rational selfishness—which means: the values required for man’s survival qua man—which means: the values required for human survival—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial practice of human sacrifices, have never discovered an industrial society and can conceive of no self-interest but that of grabbing the loot of the moment.

The Objectivist ethics holds that human good does not require human sacrifices and cannot be achieved by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. It holds that the rational interests of men do not clash—that there is no conflict of interests among men who do not desire the unearned, who do not make sacrifices nor accept them, who deal with one another as traders, giving value for value."

The issue is not the financial health of the state, the issue is the theft at the point of the state's gun to further extort tax dollars from the taxpayers to pay for an unsustainable whim which was grabbed by the public sector unions without seriously considering the future economic consequences.

I have been a teacher, I have been a school board member and the public educational system is economically flawed. Moreover, in Wisconsin, as in a number of other states, the union is a closed shop. You have to be a member. That concept is anti-freedom and anti individual.

We have a serious problem in America. California, New York, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania are basically bankrupt. In an almost crazy contradiction, these are amongst the wealthiest state in the Union!

This is why the Wisconsin confrontation is a watershed moment for my country.

Adam

But Adam, what I identify as productive individual, you identify as irrational brute. The productive individuals who I maintain are receiving adequate compensation, are being asked to sacrifice (by sarah Palin) for the collective.

For the State, on the grounds that "they can't afford it." Sounds like a case for charity to the impecunious state, not robbing the productive teachers.

[Selene]

Carol:

Sarah Palin is no objectivist, she is a limited government, religious, conservative/libertarian and I am sure that the quote you are referring to had a whole lotta context to it.

"Sarah Palin waded into the Wisconsin budget debate Friday night with a Facebook posting that called on public employee union members to break away from their leadership. "You don’t have to kowtow to the union bosses who are not looking out for you, but instead are using you," wrote Palin.

"'Wisconsin union bosses want union members out in the streets demanding that taxpayers foot the bill for unsustainable benefits packages.'"

George stephanopllis - a Bill Clinton man

"As recently as Thursday in an appearance before the Long Island Association in Woodbury, NY, Palin declared "a pension is a promise" and that benefits should not be cut for retirees and older workers who have been paying into the programs. However, she has said that younger workers should be willing to sacrifice. On Facebook, Palin noted that her family has union connections -- her father was a longtime science teacher in Alaska -- and said that union members are "doing themselves no favor" by "closing down classrooms and abandoning children’s needs in protest against the sort of belt-tightening that people everywhere are going through. Union brothers and sisters: this is the wrong fight at the wrong time."

She called on the union members to 'sacrifice and carry our share of the burden. It does no one any favors to dismiss the sacrifices others have already had to make -- in wage cuts, unpaid vacations, and even job losses—to weather our economic storm.'"

Seems quite a bit different than what you implied, dear.

Adam

[Mike11]

WSS,

One thing I can NOT for the life of me understand about Americans.

We learned everything we need to about Labour and Business in the Winnipeg Strike.

Americans, after downsizing and outsourcing have wrecked their country, cry to their Galtian Betters for their own complete emasculation.

Its mind boggling.

[Selene]

This Salon article has some fantastic photos of the occupation of the Wisconsin Capital building.

Battlefield Wisconsin: Visualizing the protest

Michael, find this Chicago hotel and make a citizen's arrest of this Wisconsin Senator...man what great publicity that would be!

Headline:

Objectivist Living Moderator Selfishly Acts For Wisconsin Taxpayers

lol

Adam

[caroljane]

This Salon article has some fantastic photos of the occupation of the Wisconsin Capital building.

Battlefield Wisconsin: Visualizing the protest

Michael, find this Chicago hotel and make a citizen's arrest of this Wisconsin Senator...man what great publicity that would be!

Headline:

Objectivist Living Moderator Selfishly Acts For Wisconsin Taxpayers

lol

Adam

Re citizens' arrests - the law is being amended here to validate them. A shopkeeper chased down an habitual thief, tied him up and detained him till the police came. The shopkeeper was arrested for kidnapping. All is now well. I can't forbear saying, in right-to-bear-arms territory, this could have been a murder trial.

[pippi]

Americans, after downsizing and outsourcing have wrecked their country, cry to their Galtian Betters for their own complete emasculation.

Its mind boggling.

How is America crying to it's Galtian betters to complete their emasculation specifically?

I agree re: the outsourcing, chickens coming home to roost indeed. Very sad.

[merjet]

Obama Taking Sides in Wisconsin Pension Battle?