Muslim Brotherhood is Secular?

[pippi]

DNI Clapper retreats from 'secular' claim on Muslim Brotherhood

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper is backing away from comments he made Thursday calling Egypt's branch of the Muslim Brotherhood movement "largely secular."

"To clarify Director Clapper’s point - in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood makes efforts to work through a political system that has been, under Mubarak’s rule, one that is largely secular in its orientation," a spokesman for Clapper, Jamie Smith, said Thursday afternoon. "He is well aware that the Muslim Brotherhood is not a secular organization."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0211/DNI_Clapper_Egypts_Muslim_Brotherhood_largely_secular.html

[Selene]

Pippi:

This is a scary statement by one of our top intelligence officers. There has been testimony in a recent federal trial wherein documents from the Muslim Brotherhood in America specifically states that they are in favor of a progressive jihad within America.

I will find the citations.

Adam

[Jerry Biggers]

Reminiscent of Gerald Ford's nationally televised debate with Jimmy Carter in the 1976:

Chopping the air with his right hand, Gerald Ford boldly declared: "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, and there never will be under a Ford Administration." Incredulous, New York Times Associate Editor Max Frankel asked a follow-up question that offered Ford a chance to retreat, but Ford lowered his head and charged into a trap of his own making. By his reckoning, Yugoslavia, Rumania and even Poland were not under the Soviet thumb. "Each of these countries is independent, autonomous; it has its own territorial integrity."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946700,00.html#ixzz1DcNFr18S

(italics added to above quote from Time magazine, October 18, 1976.

And these are our "leaders!"

[Selene]

Now this information is dated 1991and was found in Virginia. The writer highlighted the section below.

A 1991 strategy paper for the Brotherhood, often referred to as the Ikhwan in Arabic, found in the Virginia home of an unindicted co-conspirator in the case, describes the group’s U.S. goals, referred to as a "civilization-jihadist process."

"The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions," it states. This process requires a "mastery of the art of ‘coalitions,' the art of 'absorption' and the principles of 'cooperation.'"

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2011/02/09/major-media-miss-muslim-brotherhoods-stated-goal-has-long-been-seize-us#ixzz1DcS5qeRQ

[Selene]

December 14, 2007 01:29 PM

Summary of Special Panel on Holy Land's Ties to Hamas & Muslim Brotherhood

By Andrew Cochran

On Tuesday, December 11, the Counterterrorism Foundation, along with the NEFA Foundation and International Assessment and Strategy Center, conducted a special panel, "Infiltration and Deception: The Holy Land Foundation and the Muslim Brotherhood in America," in the halls of Congress before a packed room of experts, law enforcement and intelligence community personnel, Congressional staff, and industry leaders. Here is the written version of my introduction of the co-sponsors and the panel. The audio of the discussion and Q&A is available for download here.

From further down in the article:

The exhibits make four things clear:

1) Many of the existing organizations that have set themselves up as the interlocutors between the Islamic community in the United States and the outside world (including government, law enforcement, and other faiths) were founded and controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood from their inception. Many of them changed their names over time to achieve broader national acceptance.

2) The Brotherhood established a highly-structured organization with many different faces inside the United States while deliberately and continually seeking to hide the Brotherhood’s links to its front groups.

3) The agenda to be carried out by these groups in the United States in reality had little to do with the organizations’ publicly-proclaimed goals, such as protecting the civil rights of Muslims. Rather, the true goal is to destroy the United States from the inside and work to establish a global Islamist society.

4) The primary function of the Brotherhood structures, from the early 1990s forward, was to support, materially and politically, the Hamas movement in the Palestinian territories, as instructed by the office of the general guide of the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo.

Here is the full link:

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/12/special_panel_summarized_holy.php

Adam

[Selene]

Here is an opposing view that this fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is from right wing hysterics:

"Joel Beinin of Stanford University, writing at Middle East Channel, also notes how the Brotherhood was late to the protests, debunking the American right's insistence that the Brotherhood is behind the protests, and therefore that toppling Mubarek would mean shari'ah law and all that:

The Muslim Brotherhood, widely acknowledged as the largest and best organized opposition force in the country, abstained from the January 25 demonstrations, but belatedly endorsed the January 28 demonstrations. Perhaps as a result of this waffling there has been almost no Islamic content to the demonstrations. The tone has mostly been nationalist and secular."

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/sarahposner/4140/the_roots_of_the_american_right%E2%80%99s_muslim_brotherhood_panic/

[pippi]

I don't see how any group calling themselves the "Muslim" brotherhood can be secular.

You all have cited many things I should read. But I don't think I will.

Either way.

Thank you

Edited February 11, 2011 by pippi

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This Egypt thing (quintessentially illustrated by Clapper's claptrap about MB) is undermining the public image of Obama's administration in a manner that even repealing the health care bill will not be able to duplicate.

The words "botch" and "boneheads" come to mind.

Michael

[pippi]

This Egypt thing (quintessentially illustrated by Clapper's claptrap about MB) is undermining the public image of Obama's administration in a manner that even repealing the health care bill will not be able to duplicate.

The words "botch" and "boneheads" come to mind.

Michael

I don't think at this point anyone will question Obama-they never have and never will.

Most are too scared of the race card to get down to brass tacks with this person.

It is part of the reason why this country has descended into a pathetic jelly mass of ignorance and denial. It is political correctness aka the fear of being sued.

I don't like Putin but at least he isn't afraid to be a man.

Edited February 11, 2011 by pippi

[caroljane]

"a pathetic jelly mass of ignorance and denial."

Indeed.

[caroljane]

redundant

Edited February 11, 2011 by daunce lynam

[BaalChatzaf]

This Egypt thing (quintessentially illustrated by Clapper's claptrap about MB) is undermining the public image of Obama's administration in a manner that even repealing the health care bill will not be able to duplicate.

The words "botch" and "boneheads" come to mind.

Michael

American foreign policy vis a vis the Islamic domains of the world has never been good. Our State Department is run by Gentiles who do not have the least understanding of the Middle East mind set. It is beyond their comprehension. Jews have a better grasp. Historically Judaism and Islam have a common ancestor, Abraham and his early monotheistic cult. Islam could be thought of as a mutation from an early kind of Judaism. In Biblical times Jews invaded their neighbors, busted up their stuff (especially graven images and holy trees) and took their women. In later times Jews learned to be more civilized (mostly by having the shit beat out of them). But there is still a memory of what eventually produced Islam, that morbid fixation on a demon mono-god who kills people when He is pissed off. The God of Abraham and Mohammed is not a loving God. Of all the non-Islamic people in the Middle East, the Jews of Israel probably have the best grasp of what their Muslim adversaries are thinking and feeling. The "goyim" (i.e. the Gentiles, especially Christians) do not have the least idea. They are totally incompetent to deal with Middle Eastern craziness.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Robert Campbell]

I actually feel some sympathy for Barack Obama in this situation.

Whatever he says about the revolution in Egypt, he's guaranteed to catch it from one direction or another.

The wisest course of action would be to make no public statements at all until it's over and a new government is in place.

But even if Obama were characterologically capable of holding his tongue, the media would keep pestering him for a statement.

My sympathies are nonetheless limited. Obama can't make anyone forget his bad judgment appointing an idiot like Clapper, but at least he could fired him for making that pronouncement about the Muslim Brotherhood. And of course Obama won't fire Clapper.

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Our State Department is run by Gentiles who do not have the least understanding of the Middle East mind set. It is beyond their comprehension. Jews have a better grasp.

Bob,

I only have one main criticism of Jews and Israel. I'll illustrate it by analogy.

Suppose you have a fairly large family and it was attacked by a serial killer, who tortured and murdered about half of them.

Then suppose you discovered that this serial killer was in cahoots with other serial killers, but the good guys finally came and ran them off.

Then suppose that the serial killers who were not captured went to live among a group of sympathizers elsewhere, and those people listened to them brag about what they had done. They admired the serial killers and even wanted to emulate them.

Then, to feel safe, you decide to move what's left of your family to the same neighborhood as the serial killers and their admirers. You become next-door neighbors to them.

That's exactly what the Jews did with Israel. I submit that this involves a huge dose of irrationality--something people need to understand about the Jewish tradition-bound culture.

So while Jews might understand "the Middle East mind set" better than Gentiles, they don't do so well in understanding the wisdom of not living next door to serial killers (and admirers) who are frustrated that they did not finish the job in killing them off.

I strongly support the idea of a safe haven for Jews after all they have suffered. Making that safe haven right next door to people who live and breathe left-over Nazi ideas mixed with their own brand of antisemitism is pretty dumb, I don't care what their traditions are.

This doesn't mean I am against Israel. I support it, even though it happened that way.

But, God, what a mess!

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Our State Department is run by Gentiles who do not have the least understanding of the Middle East mind set. It is beyond their comprehension. Jews have a better grasp.

Bob,

I only have one main criticism of Jews and Israel. I'll illustrate it by analogy.

Suppose you have a fairly large family and it was attacked by a serial killer, who tortured and murdered about half of them.

Then suppose you discovered that this serial killer was in cahoots with other serial killers, but the good guys finally came and ran them off.

Then suppose that the serial killers who were not captured went to live among a group of sympathizers elsewhere, and those people listened to them brag about what they had done. They admired the serial killers and even wanted to emulate them.

Then, to feel safe, you decide to move what's left of your family to the same neighborhood as the serial killers and their admirers. You become next-door neighbors to them.

That's exactly what the Jews did with Israel. I submit that this involves a huge dose of irrationality--something people need to understand about the Jewish tradition-bound culture.

So while Jews might understand "the Middle East mind set" better than Gentiles, they don't do so well in understanding the wisdom of not living next door to serial killers (and admirers) who are frustrated that they did not finish the job in killing them off.

I strongly support the idea of a safe haven for Jews after all they have suffered. Making that safe haven right next door to people who live and breathe left-over Nazi ideas mixed with their own brand of antisemitism is pretty dumb, I don't care what their traditions are.

This doesn't mean I am against Israel. I support it, even though it happened that way.

But, God, what a mess!

Michael

The didn't just move in. They BOUGHT their land from the Ottoman Turks prior to The Great War. For cash. A fat lot of good it did them.

Maybe they should have done what the Americans did with the Indians. Move into the land, take the land and kill the savages. That seems to work

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Your comments show how much denial is involved in the Jewish "mind set."

Since when did serial killers stop killing because of a receipt of payment?

And since when did receipt of payment make it OK to ignore that you are going to where the serial killers are?

It's stupid to move in next door to them, I don't care what else is involved.

Serial killers... er... like to kill. That's what they do.

That's obvious to me.

(Note: I do not mean to imply that all Muslims are serial killers.)

Michael

[william.scherk]

Your comments show how much denial is involved in the Jewish "mind set."

[ . . . ]

(Note: I do not mean to imply that all Muslims are serial killers.)

Cool.

How might we tuck the Balfour Declaration into a tale of Muslim/Nazi serial killers and dumbass Jews?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

Why it's easy.

Pretend that the Nazis never existed after the Balfour Declaration. And that the Holocaust never happened. And that the Grand Mufti & Co. never worked with Hitler.

Then we can happily throw out the whole idea of rabid antisemitism, terrorism, brainwashing, etc., as Nazi intellectual input in the Islamist world, since the good Muslims in the Grand Mufti's entourage never worked with Vichy and leftover Nazis never did migrate to the Palestine Mandate areas, nor were there ever entire Muslim networks of Nazi collaborators. And we can pretend that the Soviets weren't trying to gain a foothold in that region and that the Brits and Americans didn't hire those Nazi-leftover Muslim networks to combat them.

Then, because the Brits made the Balfour thing several decades earlier based on Jewish tradition and history, there actually were no serial killers at all next door when the Jewish migrations after WWII started. It's perfectly logical.

In fact, Islamists love Jews and Israel.

I don't even know why people think there's a problem.

If I were a Jew migrating to Israel back then, especially if I were coming from Germany or Russia, I wouldn't even worry about leftover Nazis, Musims who were former Nazi collaborators and Nazi ideas. Too many myths and conspiracy theories, anyway. Not worth thinking about...

In fact, Israel is much safer where it is than if it had gone to, say, a slice of Brazil about 20 times larger than it currently is, for one possibility.

Does that work better for you?

Of course, I didn't get into the good Muslim folks left over the the Ottoman empire who were delighted when it fell apart. But that's just another non-fundamental detail. A trifle, really. These are great neighbors all by themselves without even thinking about leftover Nazi stuff added to their kind hearts.

Michael

[Mike11]

You've routinely mentioned the connection between Husayni's ties to Axis powers and the fate of Israelis and Palestinians. I find the connection you imply overblown honestly. While its no secret Husayni was an evil man who did his best to corrupt Islam with Nazi ideology its practical effect was limited. I think it also distracts from the actual causes of the unrest in 47-8, causes still at work today.

When I look at the actual practical effects of Husayni's Nazism on the Palestinian population it is very, very limited. I do not know the circulation of Husayni's propaganda in Palestine but I know he was heavily opposed by the people. The Nashabishi and other tribes resented his dictatorship, even going as far as accepting negotiation with Zionism.

Husayni's crown achievement - outside of raising a small army to attack Arab Muslim targets in Egypt, Transjordan and Iraq - was raising a small Balkan army for the Axis powers. Not a Palestinian "SS" but a Balkan one. Keep in mind at this point in the war the SS was not really the Nordic, Pagan society but a State on its own with Arab, French and even Slavic units. An adherence to Nazi ideology was not nearly as relevant as more guns on the battlefield.

Husayni was also sidelined in the Palestinian movement when the war broke out. Show me leaders in Arab Salvation Army, Arab League, or Islamic clergy at the time expressing ideas with clear roots in Nazism as opposed to Arab Socialism or Islam and I will reevaluate my opinion.

Not only, IMHO, was Husayni's Nazism irrelevant but it masks his blame in crucial respects.

Its widely known that Palestine is not burdened by a glut of competent leadership. What is not widely known is Husayni is largely the problem's cause. In the 20's Husayni had the option of forming an Arab Agency, parallel to the Jewish Agency, under British supervision. The Jews had successfully built up trade unions, postal services, health care, political parties and even an army through the Jewish Agency. Husayni refused the offer, his national pride would not give an inch. As a result the Palestinian class most needed to form a government - the doctors, lawyers, teachers and so on - were forced to be British employees. When the British pulled out this class - a full one hundred thousand - moved to Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian and Iraqi labor markets. Palestine was effectively decapitated by Husayni's pride before a shot had been fired by the Jews. The long term damage this caused is obvious. 60 years after the war Palestine is just beginning to develop democratic institutions plagued by corruption, tribal conflicts and an underdeveloped economy.

As the board anti-zionist I also believe the emphasis on Husayni's Nazism distracts from the real grievances of the Palestinians which fueled both the Nakba and the current conflicts.

The Zionists displaced and thus angered the Palestinian Fellahin. They had been made homeless - by the Hundreds of Thousands - through Jewish land purchases of dubious legitimacy. Unable to integrate into an intentionally designed racist labor market in the Yishuv the Palestinians were left without a political solution (thanks to Husayni). You do not need Nazism to explain a violent resistance which predates Hitler by decades.

This same economic displacement continued through the Occupation. It was illegal for Palestinians to set up a wide variety of businesses, constant embargoes made any trade difficult forcing the Arabs to become cheap labor for Israel. This continues today with a system of check points, routine land and resource expropriation, and trade embargoes.

I fail to see how Nazism is required to explain the Palestinian reaction.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Joel Mac Donald

[Jerry Biggers]

You've routinely mentioned the connection between Husayni's ties to Axis powers and the fate of Israelis and Palestinians. I find the connection you imply overblown honestly. While its no secret Husayni was an evil man who did his best to corrupt Islam with Nazi ideology its practical effect was limited. I think it also distracts from the actual causes of the unrest in 47-8, causes still at work today.

When I look at the actual practical effects of Husayni's Nazism on the Palestinian population it is very, very limited. I do not know the circulation of Husayni's propaganda in Palestine but I know he was heavily opposed by the people. The Nashabishi and other tribes resented his dictatorship, even going as far as accepting negotiation with Zionism.

Husayni's crown achievement - outside of raising a small army to attack Arab Muslim targets in Egypt, Transjordan and Iraq - was raising a small Balkan army for the Axis powers. Not a Palestinian "SS" but a Balkan one. Keep in mind at this point in the war the SS was not really the Nordic, Pagan society but a State on its own with Arab, French and even Slavic units. An adherence to Nazi ideology was not nearly as relevant as more guns on the battlefield.

Husayni was also sidelined in the Palestinian movement when the war broke out. Show me leaders in Arab Salvation Army, Arab League, or Islamic clergy at the time expressing ideas with clear roots in Nazism as opposed to Arab Socialism or Islam and I will reevaluate my opinion.

Not only, IMHO, was Husayni's Nazism irrelevant but it masks his blame in crucial respects.

Its widely known that Palestine is not burdened by a glut of competent leadership. What is not widely known is Husayni is largely the problem's cause. In the 20's Husayni had the option of forming an Arab Agency, parallel to the Jewish Agency, under British supervision. The Jews had successfully built up trade unions, postal services, health care, political parties and even an army through the Jewish Agency. Husayni refused the offer, his national pride would not give an inch. As a result the Palestinian class most needed to form a government - the doctors, lawyers, teachers and so on - were forced to be British employees. When the British pulled out this class - a full one hundred thousand - moved to Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian and Iraqi labor markets. Palestine was effectively decapitated by Husayni's pride before a shot had been fired by the Jews. The long term damage this caused is obvious. 60 years after the war Palestine is just beginning to develop democratic institutions plagued by corruption, tribal conflicts and an underdeveloped economy.

As the board anti-zionist I also believe the emphasis on Husayni's Nazism distracts from the real grievances of the Palestinians which fueled both the Nakba and the current conflicts.

The Zionists displaced and thus angered the Palestinian Fellahin. They had been made homeless - by the Hundreds of Thousands - through Jewish land purchases of dubious legitimacy. Unable to integrate into an intentionally designed racist labor market in the Yishuv the Palestinians were left without a political solution (thanks to Husayni). You do not need Nazism to explain a violent resistance which predates Hitler by decades.

This same economic displacement continued through the Occupation. It was illegal for Palestinians to set up a wide variety of businesses, constant embargoes made any trade difficult forcing the Arabs to become cheap labor for Israel. This continues today with a system of check points, routine land and resource expropriation, and trade embargoes.

I fail to see how Nazism is required to explain the Palestinian reaction.

I suggest that you closely examine Baathism, as expressed in both its Syrian and Iraqi versions.

You may also find information on the close collaboration of post-World War II nazis and neo-nazis with Baathist, Nasserite, and other Arab socialists, in The Beast Reawakens,by Martin A. Lee, - and there many other books on this relationship. You might also like to explore the activities of a real neo-Nazi, as portrayed in Dreamer Of The Day: Francis Parker Yockey and the Post-War Fascist International, by Kevin Coogan (1999, Brooklyn, N.Y., Autonomedia), who used the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the FBI's extensive files covering 30 years of Yockey's international travels to promote nazi activities in cluding the Middle East. This is a very long book (644 pages), but I think you will find Chapter 38, "A Bomb for Nasser," quite revealing.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Jerry Biggers

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You've routinely mentioned the connection between Husayni's ties to Axis powers and the fate of Israelis and Palestinians. I find the connection you imply overblown honestly.

Joel,

Nobody is saying all the ills of the world are the fault of one man. Does anyone think Adolf Hitler was the only Nazi? There were a bunch of people involved. Al-Husseini was merely the most visible--especially because of Jerusalem and his open ties to Hitler. Another biggie back then was al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. But there were oodles.

I've posted links before, but if you want hard information, please check out the following link. This was the first one I encountered that put Nazism solidly in my radar when I started researching this.

Tell The Children The Truth

You can also look at some of my previous posts in the Mideast section for a lot of other links.

And you could Google the following:

Nazi Islamism

I got well over 5 million pages just now. In fact, I am pleased to see how this has grown since I began talking about it a few years ago. The world is starting to wake up on this point.

If you will actually read some of this stuff, I will give you some targeted links already on OL and I will look through some of the things on Google to select some of the more factual ones.

But look at "Tell The Children The Truth" first. There you will see facts, dates, people, photos, etc.

Just for the hell of it, here's a very quick overview from Discover the Networks: Jihad's Nazi Connections.

(Incidentally, I do not like a lot of the stuff I have seen that Horowitz has produced--too propaganda-like--but the facts I have seen on this site--the ones I looked at--I have been able to corroborate in other places. Also, this site is not heavy in propaganda rhetoric, so I find it easy to read without getting irritated.)

Michael

[Mike11]

I've skimmed the source material, I plan on reading it in more detail after exams.

[caroljane]

I don't see how any group calling themselves the "Muslim" brotherhood can be secular.

You all have cited many things I should read. But I don't think I will.

Either way.

Thank you

You sum up your practical objectivism most succinctly.

Well done.