I'm losing hope for the future

[caroljane]

John, it might even be possible that because of your age, you are experiencing the worst of your condition now, and that the future will be better simply because of the passage of time.

Many depressive and delusional related conditions present first, and most strongly, in the early 20's. With proper diagnosis and treatment they often can be improved, and such things as future psychotic episodes avoided. Acute depression can often be successfully treated with medication alone, the results sometimes seeming almost like magic, though the combination of meds and therapy is the ideal. I know that some depressive disorders just resist all treatment, which is a tragedy. But the mood-drug industry, bless its greedy corporate heart, treats the sick increasingly well, although it wrongly tries to convince the well that they are sick too.

I, like everyone here, say this knowing nothing of your medical condition.you have indicated that you know it best and are master of it. Is this attitude entirely wise? Just like everybody has a boss, everybody always has somebody who knows better. Even Ayn Rand.

[John Tate]

Geez,

Without accepting this on blind faith, it is very good to read something that confirms your own belief: I've been telling people this for years!

Now I've got a name for it - "depressive realism". Thanks, Shayne.

John, comparisons are only a bit better than analogies, I think, but some of what you say strikes a chord with me.

At age 23, I felt despondent about life, and veered for a while towards an approximation of escapism and sullen withdrawal. At about then I read Atlas Shrugged and rather than bolster me, I found its theme and message painful - as a state I was not worthy of, or capable of.

However, the long and short of it was that I couldn't escape the fact that I knew Objectivsm was true, and had many answers for me, and I perservered.

Sure, there were times I realised O'ism ran counter to the 'zeitgeist' around me - and I learned that argument was futile with the 'friends' I had.

But the real friends did come along eventually.

To keep it short, last points:

Wherever we live in the world, is not great, right now. As comparison, many South Africans see Aussie as the land of milk and honey - and can't wait to emigrate there, or next choice NZ, and Canada. It seems, wherever one is, you have to "keep your head when all about you are losing theirs'..."

As for fear, that's the biggest killer of the human spirit, and has to not be denied or evaded, but to be confronted and diverted into something better.

All this to say, others have gone through similar - stay conscious and rational and they will see you through.

Tony

They are good points, I've had a good sleep. I seem to get clouded by emotions and today I'm wondering why they happen. I've done a bit of thinking and I've realized that I have

On a side note, I think depressive realism is basically just a malevolent universe premise. Coining new terms seems unnecessary.

You should join whatever the equivalent of the Marines is in Australia. That will take you mind off your current problems rather abruptly.

Seriously, do you think you are likely to get useful advice on this issue from strangers?

Well I've posted here a bit a while ago, I've lurked a lot, and I have a lot of respect for many of the members. I'm really just a stranger to anyone else here.

That's good, I'm glad. You also need courage just to do what's right even when no one is attacking you in any way. That's more of the way I meant it; Courage to face the fear inside you.

Edit: I just realized you might have meant it the way I did .

I'm 23 basically.

I'm 23 too .

It does take a long time to find your way, and I believe the key lies in the first post I made. Just because I say it doesn't mean much though. You will have too prove it to yourself first for you to truly believe it.

It is good advise, thanks.

---

Mostly I'm hoping those here who have been through the same thing have good suggestions on overcoming it. I feel very overpowered. I need to live within the system but the system is almost completely irrational. Many trades and skills that would work well in the mean time require I complete courses when I think I should be able to do the tests. I've done electronics my entire life, but it would take five years of substandard wages on an apprenticeship to be legally able to market these skills. It bothers me because the Government here seems to be too trusted by people. I can see why a qualification adds an authenticity. Yet, no matter what I do it seems I have to impress rather than prove myself. Another thing that bothers me about the people around me is that they are too afraid of breaking laws when nobody could get caught. For example, minimum wage laws. I can't seem to get a break anywhere, and its killing me. I could get some kind of demeaning employment tailor made for crazy people through the welfare system. It's very hard to get work, when I feel I need to be honest about any shortcomings I have. Yet its not the shortcomings that seem to put anyone off employing me, many seem to feel its exploitation, and others it seems to be mass delusions about the nature of mental illness. Short comings I don't have are seen when they are not there.

I'm glad I no longer get help from Government mental health services. They seem to have become full of Robert Stradler like doctors. I had this strange psychologist who I originally wanted CBT from. Yet all she wanted to do is show me these relaxation techniques she had invented. She didn't care about what I wanted, and that is because she didn't care about money. She doesn't have too. It is strange, because its twice something like that has happened in my life. Once while I was in a psychiatric hospital for mania a doctor did the same thing. I really don't feel I have many places to turn with my mental health. It has become very prudent to just avoid them, and so I learned to deal with my symptoms without medication. There are private psychologists, and I think I'll just keep looking for work so I can afford one in the private sector. I've realized nobody who is mentally aware could tolerate working directly for the State Government considering the strange regulations. As far as support for my mental health problems is, I'd be a healthier cave hermit rather than a client of the Government services. My ataxia and antipsychotics never mixes well anyway, I get akathisia and involuntary muscle movements when I am on those. They don't care about the agonizing akathisia, and so I got them to discharge me. They didn't even believe I had the symptom, and they never do. I hate most psychiatrists, they seem to have gone so far on a liars hunt for the welfare of irresponsible junkies that it just no longer makes any sense what they do. They clearly don't care about my welfare.

[John Tate]

I took a while to reply to the last batch.

John, a lot of people have taught you how to be a victim, many by victimizing you (going by what you've said). If you can refuse to be a victim, which would take a lot of practice, you'll discover that that light at the end of the tunnel--can you see it yet?--isn't from an oncoming train. This is something going on in your head and refusing to be a victim doesn't here mean striking out or striking back.

--Brant

get to work and good luck!

I noticed in my late teens when I'd spend a lot of time helping others who were sexually abused that this happens to everyone who has been put in that situation. There are others with the same effects. I've never thought of it this way, but it seems like I'm holding myself back in the same way by vicimizing myself over the policial situation. And I do spend too much time, thinking about ways to strike the Government. You've got me thinking.

Another thought: if people depress you, perhaps you should avoid them. Study, learn a new skill, etc. rather than interacting with them.

When I was in my 20's I noticed that reading the news made me depressed and angry. So I explicitly made the choice to stop reading it for many years and spent the time learning valuable things rather than getting mad about stupid things.

Shayne

It used to be that for me. It's all the catchphrases people say can leave me fuming sometimes these days, and avoiding people is doing me no good. Once I stormed off on a friend just for saying "Well, were in it together," a week ago while drinking. He never asked why, but he knows.

> I've become afraid to socialize, because people get so angry at my ideas.

John, one thing that works for me is that, since I have a lot of other values and interests, like to do sports, tell jokes, read history, discuss classical literature, etc., I don't feel the need to talk about Objectivism until I know someone really well.

Then if someone is really turned off by the ideas, since they already know me as a person they can put it in perspective -->

Well, Phil has a lot of good traits, I guess I'm going to think our philosophical differences are the only way we relate.

The things people say at the moment keep bringing it up for me, Objectivism. It's not just politics, actually its rarely politics. It is just ordinary life, sometimes this starts interesting discussions. I find 99% of people absolutely boring, and they find me absolutely snobby. Yet in the world of networking and such as a goal towards employment, it isn't doing me much good anymore it seems. In highschool being an overly self-educated snob with excellent grades did me a lot of good. I stayed out of trouble. Now it just has me out of sight completely. Sometimes, and with friends more in touch with American culture people don't understand what I am trying to say at all when I make a philosophical objection to something.

Another thought:

Do you live in a small town or small environment? You can meet lots of different kinds of people with a greater variety of responses to you in a big city.

Probably support groups for your psychological condition as well. People who are in the same boat can often be understanding, sympathetic, supportive.

Forget about whether or not they like Ayn Rand. I strongly suspect that's not as important at the stage you are in. Don't let it get in the way short term.

Yeah I live in a small town, I can't possibly afford to live in the city so I had to move here. I know what you mean, when I lived there I had a lot more interesting places to go. Then again, I never met anyone like Sarah in the city and she is a lot like me. I grew up in this area and left at 14 and moved back on my own last year around May. I've tried support groups - I don't like the entire theory behind bipolar and I might make a thread about that another time. I don't think I have depression at the moment, I don't feel unmotivated. I think I have been though without realizing it, which is making a lot of things seem strange. I'm worried I am on the verge of a bad manic episode - but I should be able to avoid it.

John, it might even be possible that because of your age, you are experiencing the worst of your condition now, and that the future will be better simply because of the passage of time.

Many depressive and delusional related conditions present first, and most strongly, in the early 20's. With proper diagnosis and treatment they often can be improved, and such things as future psychotic episodes avoided. Acute depression can often be successfully treated with medication alone, the results sometimes seeming almost like magic, though the combination of meds and therapy is the ideal. I know that some depressive disorders just resist all treatment, which is a tragedy. But the mood-drug industry, bless its greedy corporate heart, treats the sick increasingly well, although it wrongly tries to convince the well that they are sick too.

I, like everyone here, say this knowing nothing of your medical condition.you have indicated that you know it best and are master of it. Is this attitude entirely wise? Just like everybody has a boss, everybody always has somebody who knows better. Even Ayn Rand.

I've been diagnosed, I've even been in a psychitatric ward about two years ago convinced I was a spy from a manic episode. I took lithium for a year and stopped because it made me too unemotional and I didn't seem to react to things very well. I cope very well with my condition, in fact anyone not coping could learn from me. Unforuntely, they're stuck with the system and nobody that copes with it needs the system. I wish they could find me.

----

Because of my experiences with akathisia, malnutrition food in psychiatric hospitals, and an obsession with patients whims I am very much anti-psychiatry though not completely. As a profession, they seem to be careless and sloppy. Ignorant of any cognitive side effects that would make my life useless. Seroquel I still take and can get from my ordinary doctor. Before that it was Risperidone, and my IQ dropped on online tests to 70 from 122 on that drug. On Seroquel, it gained 2 points to 124 by my own testing that I've experienced first hand and am comfortable with. The Seroquel however causes akathisia which is like an annoying sensation all over the body. It could be used to torture people it is that horrid. They didn't even care, and they refused to allow me alternatives. I just live with it or not take it when I can, its only when I am manic that I become prone to psychosis and delusions and all my manic episodes are easy to spot when I know the warning signs. Still, my medication is unbareable and three different psychiatrists did not care the slightest and won't authorize a change. They're quite evil I think, I hate the system. I wish I were in America, because the customer is always right. Here, because they don't need my money, they don't even care what I want.

I also have a problem because many people in mental health believe Objectivism is mentally unhealthy and need an intellectual shitkicking. There seems to be this immense faith in psychiatry by Objectivists. Well, I wish I could share the same sentiment, but here psychiatry is only a business for the rich now. Everyone else gets it for free, and so I can have useless doctors at $0 or a good one at $400. Good medicine is simply not in my means.

[kiaer.ts]

Just food for thought, not advocating swallowing it whole:

http://en.wikipedia....ressive_realism

"Depressive realism is the proposition that people with depression

actually have a more accurate perception of reality, specifically that

they are less affected by positive illusions of illusory superiority,

the illusion of control and optimism bias. The concept refers to

people with borderline or moderate depression, suggesting that while

non-depressed people see things in an overly positive light and

severely depressed people see things in overly negative light, the

mildly discontented grey area in between in fact reflects the most

accurate perception of reality."

Shayne

Why am I not surprised?

[kiaer.ts]

Not to be presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but just as an idea to think about: you might want to consider that the contradictions in Objectivism are biting you in your subconscious.

Ah, yes, when you don't know what to do, blame others.

Shayne, you might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of displacement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_activity

[sjw]

Why am I not surprised?

Of all the people at OL, only you are creepy enough to use a thread like this to fire a cheap shot at someone who you hold a grudge against for always losing arguments to.

Shayne

[sjw]

Not to be presumptuous as I don't know anything about you, but just as an idea to think about: you might want to consider that the contradictions in Objectivism are biting you in your subconscious.

Ah, yes, when you don't know what to do, blame others.

Ted's dogma: When Objectivism isn't working, blame yourself.

Shayne

[pippi]

I have not seen any immense faith in psychiatry among Objectivists.

[sjw]

I have not seen any immense faith in psychiatry among Objectivists.

I haven't seen any immense faith among Objectivists ;)

Shayne

[pippi]

I have not seen any immense faith in psychiatry among Objectivists.

I haven't seen any immense faith among Objectivists ;)

Shayne

True faith and objectivism are opposites, but what if you put your faith in Objectivism?

Guess you are sunk

[caroljane]

John,

Does anything make you laugh? Not head-shakingly or bitterly, but irresistibly, with joy?

Are you able to truly laugh?

[BaalChatzaf]

The OP's lament is the sort of schmertz and woe that happens when a person prematurely exposes him/her self to a cult like movement. Before even committing one's self to a philosophy, a religion, a system, an institution one should have a sense of him or her self.

Cults and cultlike movements can be dangerous to one's mental health.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[PDS]

John,

Does anything make you laugh? Not head-shakingly or bitterly, but irresistibly, with joy?

Are you able to truly laugh?

A good question for all of us.

[bmacwilliam]

Many trades and skills that would work well in the mean time require I complete courses when I think I should be able to do the tests. I've done electronics my entire life, but it would take five years of substandard wages on an apprenticeship to be legally able to market these skills. It bothers me because the Government here seems to be too trusted by people. I can see why a qualification adds an authenticity. Yet, no matter what I do it seems I have to impress rather than prove myself.

Not good. Several problems here. First of all, "paying your dues" may not be entirely rational if you think you have the skills and knowledge already - understandable. But it's even more irrational NOT to pay your dues if there's a good payday at the end of it.

Secondly, if you are good, really good, your days of "substandard wages" may be fewer than you think. If you make yourself valuable to an employer, you can get more money out of him.

Lastly, I think many Objectivist-leaning types spend too many years in their parents' basements because they forget that money is a pretty good proxy for your quality of service to others. Not enslavement, but service. You may have visions of great things, but to even have a chance to get there you generally must serve others. One of the best things you can do for your career is to make your bosses look good - not something that many Objectivists want to hear (after all, it's all about me). No, it's not about 'you' in the trivial sense.

Service=money.

Bob

Edited February 8, 2011 by Bob_Mac

[shifty]

I'm glad I no longer get help from Government mental health services. They seem to have become full of Robert Stradler like doctors. I had this strange psychologist who I originally wanted CBT from. Yet all she wanted to do is show me these relaxation techniques she had invented. She didn't care about what I wanted, and that is because she didn't care about money. She doesn't have too. It is strange, because its twice something like that has happened in my life. Once while I was in a psychiatric hospital for mania a doctor did the same thing. I really don't feel I have many places to turn with my mental health. It has become very prudent to just avoid them, and so I learned to deal with my symptoms without medication. There are private psychologists, and I think I'll just keep looking for work so I can afford one in the private sector. I've realized nobody who is mentally aware could tolerate working directly for the State Government considering the strange regulations. As far as support for my mental health problems is, I'd be a healthier cave hermit rather than a client of the Government services. My ataxia and antipsychotics never mixes well anyway, I get akathisia and involuntary muscle movements when I am on those. They don't care about the agonizing akathisia, and so I got them to discharge me. They didn't even believe I had the symptom, and they never do. I hate most psychiatrists, they seem to have gone so far on a liars hunt for the welfare of irresponsible junkies that it just no longer makes any sense what they do. They clearly don't care about my welfare.

This reminds of an experience I had with a psychologist ( or psychotherapist if I remember) from Mexico who really wanted me to feel better by showing a horoscope book type thing that predicted your attributes based on your birth day. I was skeptical but interested on how accurate the description was. Then I realized that she was reading the wrong section for my date. Any confidence I had with her collapsed into a deep contemptuous distrust bordering on hatred. I informed her of the error with a derisive smile, and never came back again. I also got of the med she had given me and went through a week of withdrawal, which of each day felt like I had a hangover.

My life was far from better at the time, but it did leave me with a sour taste for psychologists.

[John Tate]

I have not seen any immense faith in psychiatry among Objectivists.

It's often just that people have little other ideas in the area.

John,

Does anything make you laugh? Not head-shakingly or bitterly, but irresistibly, with joy?

Quite a few things, I make lots of bitter jokes. I can have a very dark sense of humor.

Are you able to truly laugh?

Yeah, I watch a lot of comedy.

I'm glad I no longer get help from Government mental health services. They seem to have become full of Robert Stradler like doctors. I had this strange psychologist who I originally wanted CBT from. Yet all she wanted to do is show me these relaxation techniques she had invented. She didn't care about what I wanted, and that is because she didn't care about money. She doesn't have too. It is strange, because its twice something like that has happened in my life. Once while I was in a psychiatric hospital for mania a doctor did the same thing. I really don't feel I have many places to turn with my mental health. It has become very prudent to just avoid them, and so I learned to deal with my symptoms without medication. There are private psychologists, and I think I'll just keep looking for work so I can afford one in the private sector. I've realized nobody who is mentally aware could tolerate working directly for the State Government considering the strange regulations. As far as support for my mental health problems is, I'd be a healthier cave hermit rather than a client of the Government services. My ataxia and antipsychotics never mixes well anyway, I get akathisia and involuntary muscle movements when I am on those. They don't care about the agonizing akathisia, and so I got them to discharge me. They didn't even believe I had the symptom, and they never do. I hate most psychiatrists, they seem to have gone so far on a liars hunt for the welfare of irresponsible junkies that it just no longer makes any sense what they do. They clearly don't care about my welfare.

This reminds of an experience I had with a psychologist ( or psychotherapist if I remember) from Mexico who really wanted me to feel better by showing a horoscope book type thing that predicted your attributes based on your birth day. I was skeptical but interested on how accurate the description was. Then I realized that she was reading the wrong section for my date. Any confidence I had with her collapsed into a deep contemptuous distrust bordering on hatred. I informed her of the error with a derisive smile, and never came back again. I also got of the med she had given me and went through a week of withdrawal, which of each day felt like I had a hangover.

My life was far from better at the time, but it did leave me with a sour taste for psychologists.

I am just tired of it. In all my life the only contempt or discrimination I've ever been treated with has been by some pain the the arse case manager who doesn't jack squat about anything. Social workers are also complete godamn fools, I can never trust any of these rats. Once in a rehab like place, and I am a terrible chess player but I was quite out of it and drugged up on prescription drugs. The doctor wanted to get me out of the 'anxious' mindset by keeping me relaxed for a week. I dare say it kind of worked. Yet I bet this idiotic social worker in a Chess game, I don't know how anyone could be that bad. That isn't just humor, I'm not even that fond of the game. I left quickly after that. My problem isn't so much the therapy as the system itself. The Mental Health Act allows involuntary treatment but unless I stay for six months I'm not getting into the state supreme court of victoria, where I live I don't have rights it seems. I've had to operate under compulsion for a quick release too many times. I've seen the state destroy people with ECT too many times, against their will.

Hell, I've had daydreams of having a posse of escaped lunatics and we just go and break people out periodically like gangsters getting protection money from psych wards, but patients who want to leave. It's a fucked up system, I rarely see it helping anyone. Quite frankly its like an awful long scene from Half-Life 2 but its real, right in front of me, and more a result of a spendthrift lunatic altruist in Governement for too fucking long than my mental illness. I emailed to the Prime Minister on National Suicide Week when she pledged more Federal money and programs, "How many more people have to kill themselves before you push them over the edge?"

[BaalChatzaf]

John,

Does anything make you laugh? Not head-shakingly or bitterly, but irresistibly, with joy?

Are you able to truly laugh?

What is that funny? All I can manage is the ironic and the sardonic.

As to total joy? That is a little bit difficult when we all live with a death sentence hanging over us. Odds are we won't live to see some tomorrow.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[anthony]

case manager... Social workers these rats... The doctor... idiotic social worker... the game... the system itself... The Mental Health Act... the state supreme court of victoria... the state...

a fucked up system... altruist in Governement... the Prime Minister

John,

I offer you this favorite of mine (which I was pleased to find out was Rand's also).

You might know it.>

"[Lord], Grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change;

The Courage to change the things I can; and,

The Wisdom to know the difference."

I sense you are identifying over-much with the system you're locked in to (for now), and not enough with determining your own life, and peace of mind.

I agree, it is easy not to see the forest for the trees, at times...

Tony

[PDS]

John,

Does anything make you laugh? Not head-shakingly or bitterly, but irresistibly, with joy?

Are you able to truly laugh?

What is that funny? All I can manage is the ironic and the sardonic.

As to total joy? That is a little bit difficult when we all live with a death sentence hanging over us. Odds are we won't live to see some tomorrow.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Very odd statements, and I'm sure this will cheer John up. The only way not to have a "death sentence" hanging over you is to have not lived in the first place. Clumps of dirt don't have the problems we humans face... I for one will take the death sentence, if that is part of the deal.

Edited February 9, 2011 by PDS

[shifty]

Hell, I've had daydreams of having a posse of escaped lunatics and we just go and break people out periodically like gangsters getting protection money from psych wards, but patients who want to leave. It's a fucked up system, I rarely see it helping anyone. Quite frankly its like an awful long scene from Half-Life 2 but its real, right in front of me, and more a result of a spendthrift lunatic altruist in Governement for too fucking long than my mental illness. I emailed to the Prime Minister on National Suicide Week when she pledged more Federal money and programs, "How many more people have to kill themselves before you push them over the edge?"

Terrible system, but keep searching for happiness, even if you don't see it anywhere, because it's better than not searching. And don't loose sight of a future that's possible.

Also, Half-Life 2 is a great game . I think you are referring to the scene at the beginning right? . Have you played the episodes?

P.S. On a side note, some parts were not as discernible from grammar errors, I guess from writing on the spur.

Shifty

[caroljane]

Re Laughter=Medicine?

John, it is good to know you can enjoy comedy. It is an encouraging sign that there is hope for you.

Ba'al, I don't know about you. I hope you were writing in irony, but the line is so fine with you it is hard to tell. You are a master of deadpan.

D

future corpse

Edited February 9, 2011 by daunce lynam

[BaalChatzaf]

Re Laughter=Medicine?

John, it is good to know you can enjoy comedy. It is an encouraging sign that there is hope for you.

Ba'al, I don't know about you. I hope you were writing in irony, but the line is so fine with you it is hard to tell. You are a master of deadpan.

D

future corpse

I tell the truth as best I know it. It is my nature.

I am very bad at deception and lying. It is not as though I haven't tried them. But with me, it just does not work.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

Re Laughter=Medicine?

John, it is good to know you can enjoy comedy. It is an encouraging sign that there is hope for you.

Ba'al, I don't know about you. I hope you were writing in irony, but the line is so fine with you it is hard to tell. You are a master of deadpan.

D

future corpse

I tell the truth as best I know it. It is my nature.

I am very bad at deception and lying. It is not as though I haven't tried them. But with me, it just does not work.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I Know you're very literal - you didn't misread "deadpan" for "deception" by chance? I was giving you a compliment.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I Know you're very literal - you didn't misread "deadpan" for "deception" by chance?

Daunce,

He probably thought it meant a whacked wok.

Bob is also a world-class bullshitter. All he can manage is "the ironic" and "the sardonic"?

Heh.

Search through his posts and see how many times you find when he says he's peeing in his pants from laughing so hard. That's a standard line from him.

He reminds me of my great grandmother (and I say that affectionately). She used to talk about how great she felt since she took her diet seriously. That would have been fine except for the big honking piece of chocolate cake or apple pie she would be putting away right as she said it.

Michael

[caroljane]

I Know you're very literal - you didn't misread "deadpan" for "deception" by chance?

Daunce,

He probably thought it meant a whacked wok.

Bob is also a world-class bullshitter. All he can manage is "the ironic" and "the sardonic"?

Heh.

Search through his posts and see how many times you find when he says he's peeing in his pants from laughing so hard. That's a standard line from him.

He reminds me of my great grandmother (and I say that affectionately). She used to talk about how great she felt since she took her diet seriously. That would have been fine except for the big honking piece of chocolate cake or apple pie she would be putting away right as she said it.

Michael

Oh, well. As long as he wasn't pulling my leg about the haggis too. Some things are sacred.