Richard Wiig Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 No ones simplified anything, Michael. You haven't been able to show that Sharia is separate from Islam, so now you're saying that Sharia is all things to all men. Whether it is or not doesn't matter. Whether there are lots of people who say it is nothing but a few innocuous rules or lots of people who say it includes the death penalty for apostates and gays, is irrelevant. Either way, it is part of Islam. You can't even face up to that simple little fact. Some objectivist you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Some objectivist you are.Richard,I'm not your kind of Objectivist. You can count on that as an absolute.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) The reader is encouraged to look up all this stuff. If you want to know what sharia is, look it up. Google it. One of the better things, Michael, has said. May I suggest the Legacy of Jihad by Andrew Bostom, for a rundown on the history of Jihad in Islam - documented fact that Jihad, and Sharia, existed long before the Islamic collaboration with the Nazis, and that Shariah has been with Islam throughout - and his Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism. Raymond Ibrahim's Al Qaeda Reader, so that you can read Al Qaeda in their own words, the words they put to non-muslims, and what they say behind non-muslims backs to Muslims themselves. I suggest you read Robert Spencer's books, and judge his ideas on their own merit, rather than on Michael's characterisation of him as a bigot. Check what he says against the actual Islamic sources that he references. Read the likes of Resa Aslan, Tarriq Ramadan, Karen Armstrong, and other's who are opponents of the "bigots", and judge on their argument, not on their charges of bigotry, or "over-simplification". Fact is fact, whether its a simple thing or a complex thing. Sharia is part of Islam, is not an over-simplification. It's a basic fact. Read Sayd Qutb, and Hasan Al Bana, and investigate the religious grounding of their movement. Check out all four mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and see what they actually have to say on Jihad and relations with non-muslims. Check it all out, and then come to conclusions based on the facts, rather than on some peoples constant charges of bigotry. Edited February 7, 2011 by Infidel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Nazism isn't a race, nor is Islam. It's not about Germans, or about Pakistanis. It's about ideology. Is sharia part and parcel of Islam or not?Not.What do you think is at the heart of Islam?Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Submission.Submission to imaginary demons is very dangerous. It is no mystery why so many of the practitioners of Islam are either violent themselves or passively tolerate violence. Submission is a vile and dangerous meme.Ba'al Chatzaf Edited February 7, 2011 by BaalChatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 One of the principal tenets of Objectivism is submission.Submission to reality."Nature to be commanded must be obeyed," and so forth.Submission to God's will is a basic tenet of Christianity.Submission to the state is a basic tenet of statism.Submission to falsifiability is a basic tenet of scientists.And so on.Making a package deal out of submission+Islam+evil, and turning it into one word, makes it a vile and dangerous meme. It turns into a rationalization for bigotry.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 What do you think is at the heart of Islam?Bob,The same thing that is at the heart of all religions, an attempt to address the meaning of human life and the establishment of a moral code.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 One of the principal tenets of Objectivism is submission.Submission to reality."Nature to be commanded must be obeyed," and so forth.MichaelNot submission in the Islamic sense (which is surrender) but recognition. To recognize is to know. To know means one can deal with what one recognizes. Ayn Rand had a word for it: identity and identification.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,Obey means submit.Obey does not mean recognize.Rand's books are full of instances of where people surrender what they want to obeying reality.I submit that "recognizing reality" in those instances means "obeying reality," which means "submitting your will to the dictates of reality."Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,Obey means submit.Obey does not mean recognize.Rand's books are full of instances of where people surrender what they want to obeying reality.I submit that "recognizing reality" in those instances means "obeying reality," which means "submitting your will to the dictates of reality."MichaelObey whom? Obey Wild Imams who call for the murder of unarmed people?Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,You're playing games.Not obey whom. Obey what.But you know that already.There's no logical way to spin the concept of submission as something that applies only to Muslims and to no one else. All you can do is use a double standard to make it work. Shall we go into why people use double standards?This is the kind of muddled thinking that prolongs the problem, not solves it. You are making the same logical mistake as the bad guys among those you accuse do.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,You're playing games.Not obey whom. Obey what.But you know that already.There's no logical way to spin the concept of submission as something that applies only to Muslims and to no one else. All you can do is use a double standard to make it work. Shall we go into why people use double standards?This is the kind of muddled thinking that prolongs the problem, not solves it. You are making the same logical mistake as the bad guys among those you accuse do.MichaelThe Germans were submissive (obedient) too. They submitted to the will and goals of the Leader. And we know what came of that. So it isn't just Muslims. It is batshit crazy fanatics (of which the Prophet, pus and blisters upon him, was one too). Crazy people with crazy memes make misery for the rest of us.The Japanese were also submissive to the will of their Emperor God. Banzai!. You saw what came of that. Two mushroom clouds. And so it goes. There will always be people submissive (obedient) to demons and evil ideas. And so it goes.Ba'al Chatzarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,There you go. You agree with me.Submission per se is not Muslim exclusive.The important parts are who submits and what that person submits to.A fanatic submitting to a violent leader is not the same thing as a rational person submitting to reality.Oversimplifying and implying submission is evil because it is Islamic is like implying money-lending is evil because it is Jewish.You can run that backwards too. Watch.Oversimplifying and implying Islam is evil because it mean submission is like implying Judaism is evil because it allows money-lending.Is your BS meme meter in overdrive yet? Mine reached the red zone a long time ago over this.The only thing that happens when you fight evil with evil is that you become evil yourself. I say give it up--give up the bigotry and embrace the good. You'll win and it will be an enduring win.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Bob,There you go. You agree with me.Submission per se is not Muslim exclusive.The important parts are who submits and what that person submits to.A fanatic submitting to a violent leader is not the same thing as a rational person submitting to reality.Oversimplifying and implying submission is evil because it is Islamic is like implying money-lending is evil because it is Jewish.You can run that backwards too. Watch.Oversimplifying and implying Islam is evil because it mean submission is like implying Judaism is evil because it allows money-lending.Is your BS meme meter in overdrive yet? Mine reached the red zone a long time ago over this.The only thing that happens when you fight evil with evil is that you become evil yourself. I say give it up--give up the bigotry and embrace the good. You'll win and it will be an enduring win.MichaelWhen battling your mortal enemy sink below his level. That way you can attack him from beneath and kill him.If the end is just any means to it are also just.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 If the end is just any means to it are also just.Hitler used to say that, too.I'll stay with my idea of not becoming evil.I'll especially stay with the idea of not promoting evil as a moral good.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike11 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Remember, keep emphasizing aspects of Islamic ideology followed by some Muslims. The moment we actually look at who is exploiting, humiliating and murdering who the Objectitard's Burden becomes less convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 When battling your mortal enemy sink below his level. That way you can attack him from beneath and kill him.If the end is just any means to it are also just.Ba'al Chatzaf Careful there. You might drown or suffer PTSS. Not likely, though, from your living room chair. This mindless, ignorant chatter about war is always hard for me to take. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 If the end is just any means to it are also just.Hitler used to say that, too.He did? I thought that came from Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Of all things for him to quote! Actually, I think it was Machiavelli originally, and the Protocols were fabricated from a book someone unrelated had written, critiquing Napoleon III by way of a fictional dialogue between Machiavelli and Montesquieu. Whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Submission in Islam means surrender of the individual will to the will of Muhammad. Islam is a collectivist social system that sacrifices the individual to the Ummah. That they bicker and disagree to varying degrees as to what constitutes the will of Muhammad means sweet f.a. It's absolutely bizarre to see so-called Objectivists leaping to defend a collectivist system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Submission in Islam means surrender of the individual will to the will of Muhammad. Islam is a collectivist social system that sacrifices the individual to the Ummah. That they bicker and disagree to varying degrees as to what constitutes the will of Muhammad means sweet f.a. It's absolutely bizarre to see so-called Objectivists leaping to defend a collectivist system.The Muslims claim they submit to the will of Allah as revealed through the words of the Prophet Mohamed (pus and blisters upon him). Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 It's absolutely bizarre to see so-called Objectivists leaping to defend a collectivist system.Richard,This is where you keep getting it wrong, and this is nothing more than the false-dichotomy game people like you play to try to intimidate others ("if you don't bash those I hate, you aren't on my side, you are on the other side").I am not defending a collectivist system.I am defending correct identification.Unfortunately, I no longer find it "absolutely bizarre to see so-called Objectivists leaping to defend" bigotry.I've gotten used to it.But I will still speak out against it when I see it.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike11 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Yah mother fucker we're Number One,All outta beers so go get yer gun!Now we'll take we wanna!The price of freedom is getting steepFor every one we kill threeNow we'll take we wanna!Oh yah,Alright!North American,For Life! Edited February 8, 2011 by Joel Mac Donald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Yah mother fucker we're Number One,All outta beers so go get yer gun!Now we'll take we wanna!The price of freedom is getting steepFor every one we kill threeNow we'll take we wanna!Oh yah,Alright!North American,For Life!Sounds like the Theme Song of Team America --- Fuck Yeah!Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Here is another program by Glenn Beck dealing with intellectual issues for real instead of silly oversimplifications. And he asks you to not accept the dots he connects, but to do your own research instead.<br><br>A few highlights:<br><br>He says that the notion of freedom that is propagated in Egypt "sucks." It sucks because it includes widespread agreement with stoning people to death for adultery (according to one poll) and other things like that. He finds the media comparison between the Egyptian demonstrations and the American Revolution offensive and states in no uncertain terms that the American founders had a far better concept of freedom than other places in the world that cried freedom with a flawed view of it--and the proof is in the pudding, the USA got a republic and those other places got brutal dictatorships.<br><br>(If people want some intellectual work to do, getting proper ideas of freedom into the Egyptian mainstream is a good place to go do it. Does that seem impractical? It shouldn't for someone truly interested in changing the world.)<br><br>Beck gives a far different view of the Muslim Brotherhood than is presently given in the modern mainstream media in the West. He focuses on Sheik Yousuf al-Qaradhawi, who has a TV program on Al Jazeera called "Shariah and Life" that is watched by 40 million people. (Here is some addition information that was not in the Beck show: This guy does not speak officially for the Muslim Brotherhood, but he was offered to be their leader a couple of times. His intellectual influences are Hassan al-Banna--the founder of the MB, a real nasty piece of work--and Sayyid Qutb--an MB fundamentalist who is also an even nastier piece of work intellectual-wise, both now deceased). <br><br>Beck thinks the most reliable sources for anyone's views are the words of the people themselves--on videotape. Thus you will see on the show below a video of Sheik Yousuf al-Qaradhawi broadcasting (in 2009) following message on Al Jazeera (the text below is more complete than what Beck shows--you can see the whole thing on MEMRI <a href="http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3006.htm" class="bbc_url" title="" rel="nofollow"><b>here</b></a>):<br><br>Oh Allah, take your enemies, the enemies of Islam. Oh Allah, take the Jews, the treacherous aggressors. Oh Allah, take this profligate, cunning, arrogant band of people. Oh Allah, they have spread much tyranny and corruption in the land. Pour Your wrath upon them, oh our God. Lie in wait for them. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people of Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, and You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale, and You destroyed the Pharaoh and his soldiers — oh Allah, take this oppressive, tyrannical band of people. Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish Zionist band of people. Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one.<br>He also shows Sheik Yousuf al-Qaradhawi calling for child bombs (children suicide bombers).<br><br>To get an idea of the size of this audience, Beck himself is giving Obama major headaches with Beck's audience of about 4 million viewers. The audience of Sheik Yousuf al-Qaradhawi is about 10 times larger than Beck's. That's major league influence. <br><br>There's a lot more. Here are the two videos:<br><br><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/__KhQThX-G0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><br><br><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IIGCzSfpRuA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><br><br>Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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