AnitaB86

Is ideology sound or unsound?

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not. A sound ideology may breed pride. However, an ideology may be unsound, yet one may be proud of their ideology, as they are unaware of the flaws.

What I mean by 'sound' is with respect to its internal and external consistency. A sound philosophy is one that is consistent and irrefutable by any logical argument. That is, it has no logical fallacies. An ideology may be quite convincing (apparently sound), but may suffer from a logical fallacy that ultimately reveals it to be either limited or incorrect. I'm simply saying that people may believe in ideologies that are extremely convincing, but not entirely correct; believing it to be infallible, they become proud. A true ideology does not rest on pride, but on the strength (soundness) of its internal and external consistency. It is mathematically true, and provably so. Me being proud of 2 + 2 = 4 does not make it any less or more equal to 4. It is simply so, irrespective of my beliefs (or disbelief) in it. That said, many ideologies are not provable, limiting their soundness - that does not however mean that people will stop believing in them.

All that said, the very definition of ideology, is not entirely clear. In the strictest sense an ideology is the science of ideas. But in the general use, it is a world-view, or a belief structure that shapes (one might say, biases) one's perspective.

What do you think? Is ideology sound or unsound? What is the definition of an ideology?

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not.

Nope, the first question you have to deal with is whether your opening statement is valid, sound, true, meaningful. You cannot simply assume it is correct.

What do you think? Is ideology sound or unsound? What is the definition of an ideology?

You had better start again with your own definition of ideology, with your own analysis of an ideology that fits your definition, with your own examples of ideological loyalty creating suffering. You then need to limit your statements and examples, search for contra-examples, and then present your argument in a coherent, well-supported and well-referenced manner.

I don't mean to be unkind, or to suggest that your musings are valueless. I just mean to underline that you should do a bit of homework on your initial idea . . .

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not. A sound ideology may breed pride. However, an ideology may be unsound, yet one may be proud of their ideology, as they are unaware of the flaws.

What I mean by 'sound' is with respect to its internal and external consistency. A sound philosophy is one that is consistent and irrefutable by any logical argument. That is, it has no logical fallacies. An ideology may be quite convincing (apparently sound), but may suffer from a logical fallacy that ultimately reveals it to be either limited or incorrect. I'm simply saying that people may believe in ideologies that are extremely convincing, but not entirely correct; believing it to be infallible, they become proud. A true ideology does not rest on pride, but on the strength (soundness) of its internal and external consistency. It is mathematically true, and provably so. Me being proud of 2 + 2 = 4 does not make it any less or more equal to 4. It is simply so, irrespective of my beliefs (or disbelief) in it. That said, many ideologies are not provable, limiting their soundness - that does not however mean that people will stop believing in them.

All that said, the very definition of ideology, is not entirely clear. In the strictest sense an ideology is the science of ideas. But in the general use, it is a world-view, or a belief structure that shapes (one might say, biases) one's perspective.

What do you think? Is ideology sound or unsound? What is the definition of an ideology?

I think you are describing an idealized model of reality, either from an individual or cultural point of view. Reality is what it is, any model of reality will at best be an approximation. Therefore ideology is unsound. That is, it cannot be a one to one correspondence with reality. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make sense of things and make models. Just don't be surprised if your experiments fail occasionally.

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not. A sound ideology may breed pride. However, an ideology may be unsound, yet one may be proud of their ideology, as they are unaware of the flaws.

What I mean by 'sound' is with respect to its internal and external consistency. A sound philosophy is one that is consistent and irrefutable by any logical argument. That is, it has no logical fallacies. An ideology may be quite convincing (apparently sound), but may suffer from a logical fallacy that ultimately reveals it to be either limited or incorrect. I'm simply saying that people may believe in ideologies that are extremely convincing, but not entirely correct; believing it to be infallible, they become proud. A true ideology does not rest on pride, but on the strength (soundness) of its internal and external consistency. It is mathematically true, and provably so. Me being proud of 2 + 2 = 4 does not make it any less or more equal to 4. It is simply so, irrespective of my beliefs (or disbelief) in it. That said, many ideologies are not provable, limiting their soundness - that does not however mean that people will stop believing in them.

All that said, the very definition of ideology, is not entirely clear. In the strictest sense an ideology is the science of ideas. But in the general use, it is a world-view, or a belief structure that shapes (one might say, biases) one's perspective.

What do you think? Is ideology sound or unsound? What is the definition of an ideology?

Are you sound? Are you looking for a green light "to create suffering for the innocent?" Does the fact that "many ideologies are not provable" mean that many are? And what are those and those?

--Brant

Edited by Brant Gaede

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not.

Nope, the first question you have to deal with is whether your opening statement is valid, sound, true, meaningful. You cannot simply assume it is correct.

OMG I agree. In what way would one's ideology create suffering? Wouldn't it depend on what ideology it is?

I would love to hear the original poster's answer to this.

Edited by pippi

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent...

Anita,

I don't understand this.

Are you claiming that all ideologies create suffering for innocents if they are adhered to with loyalty?

If you are, we disagree on the premise level.

Anyway, an ideology is merely a codified set of beliefs and moral conclusions used as a guide for actions and choices--somewhat like a compass. It's a standard, not the actual choice. You still have to use your brain before choosing and acting if you want to be responsible and rational.

Or do you mean that being loyal to an ideology means turning your brain off?

Would you claim that using a compass creates bewilderment about location for innocent travelers?

I find this manner of reasoning odd...

Michael

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All Anita seems to want to do is pick this forum's collective brain and give nothing in return (so far) isn't that a little like poaching?

If she is writing some sort of paper or study she should be forthcoming about it. I am sure she would find alot of help and information.

I also admit I don't give most posts my full attention, many are too unclear to me , but that is my prerogative.

It is bothering me she gives so little but takes so much.

Pippi

*edited to fix spelling*

Edited by pippi

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not. A sound ideology may breed pride. However, an ideology may be unsound, yet one may be proud of their ideology, as they are unaware of the flaws.

Again, please define your terms. I hope this is not a veiled poke at Objectivism. Despite vicious rumors, we don't eat our young or cause suffering to others.

An ideology such as racism would be cause for suffering of the innocent, particularly when there are hate crimes involved, and of course, there is Nazism. Even sick haters can be quite proud. I don't know if I would call such things sound ideologies, because they seem quite evil to me. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by "sound ideology" though.

Kat

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent...

Anita,

I don't understand this.

Are you claiming that all ideologies create suffering for innocents if they are adhered to with loyalty?

I suspect she’s slipped into the premise that certainties lead to Auschwitz’s.

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Since loyalty to one's ideology create suffering for the innocent, the real question is whether the ideology is sound or not. A sound ideology may breed pride. However, an ideology may be unsound, yet one may be proud of their ideology, as they are unaware of the flaws.

What I mean by 'sound' is with respect to its internal and external consistency. A sound philosophy is one that is consistent and irrefutable by any logical argument. That is, it has no logical fallacies. An ideology may be quite convincing (apparently sound), but may suffer from a logical fallacy that ultimately reveals it to be either limited or incorrect. I'm simply saying that people may believe in ideologies that are extremely convincing, but not entirely correct; believing it to be infallible, they become proud. A true ideology does not rest on pride, but on the strength (soundness) of its internal and external consistency. It is mathematically true, and provably so. Me being proud of 2 + 2 = 4 does not make it any less or more equal to 4. It is simply so, irrespective of my beliefs (or disbelief) in it. That said, many ideologies are not provable, limiting their soundness - that does not however mean that people will stop believing in them.

All that said, the very definition of ideology, is not entirely clear. In the strictest sense an ideology is the science of ideas. But in the general use, it is a world-view, or a belief structure that shapes (one might say, biases) one's perspective.

What do you think? Is ideology sound or unsound? What is the definition of an ideology?

This may be obtuse, but I like to point out that if you had made your points in a reverse order the flow of the comment would have been from general to specific instead of specific to general, making it more coherent.

I whole heartedly meant this as a constructive insight.

Edited by Shifty

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