Sign of the Times Middle East Style

[william.scherk]

Is someone a "bad person" if they come from a muslim country? No, but you can't be a devout muslim and be a good person. You simply can't.

[ . . . ]

You have to separate the criticism of Islam (which is worthy of the harshest imaginable) from the prejudice of middle-eastern people (which is NOT justified). You really have a hard time disentangling these concepts - that's what's sad.

If I have this right, one can disentangle Muslim and Islam on one hand, and then entangle the two with the other hand.

So, the Aga Khan is not a good person. Zarqa Nawaz is not a good person. Tarek Fatah is not a good person. One can't be a devout muslim and be a good person. One simply can't.

That's so easy! Thanks to my fellow Canuckistani for giving me such a foolproof tool.

Fatah = devout muslim? Now that's funny!!

If you think Fatah is a devout muslim then you equate

"one who ignores Islamic scripture" = devout muslim

Sorry, different definitions here.

Right. As Grand Taliban Mufti of all Islam, you decide who is and who is not a devout Muslim. Handy for buttressing your hateful prejudices, and allying yourself with the most extreme Wahhabist nutcases in the world.

Setting aside your fatwa on Fatah, let us hear your diktat about the two other folks I mentioned, shall we?

[william.scherk]

For those who are monitoring the convulsions racking Egypt, currently under an unprecedented internet blackout, here's a report on Mubarak's televised address to the nation. His statements resemble the 'too late, too little' tactics that doomed Ben Ali.

I expect Grand Ayatollah Wiig and Supreme Mufti MacWilliams will spout their usual green-eyed Taliban mutterings about disloyalty and the need for harsh measures to contain the Islamist menace . . .

Mubarak addresses nation, calls on government to resign but vows to remain in power himself

By late night on Friday, police had largely abandoned the streets of the capital to the remaining bands of protesters.

By blaming the cabinet under Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif for the turmoil, Mubarak, 82, hoped to sidestep demands for his resignation after three decades of autocratic rule. He said he had asked the government to give the demonstrators the "space" they needed to voice their grievances and was "so sorry" to see protesters and police injured in clashes.

"There is a very thin line between freedom and chaos," he declared. "I am absolutely o the side of freedom for each citizen, and at the same time I am on the side of the security of Egypt. And I would not let anything dangerous happen that would threaten peace . . . and the future of the country."

Mubarak said he would not allow looting and arson, but he suggested that he would work toward "new steps for more democracy," more job opportunities and aid to the poor.

"We need to build on what we already have and to make a new future," he said. "What happened in the last few days puts fear in everybody's heart." He vowed to honor his "oath to protect Egypt."

[Selene]

Joseph Biden, the dumbest, stupidest man to ever occupy the Vice Presidency, which is saying a lot, stated the following last night:

"Asked if he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator Biden responded: 'Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.'"

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-Biden-says-Egypt-s-Mubarak-no-dictator-he-shouldn-t-step-down?cmpid=addthis_twitter&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d421b92d593d07c,0

[BaalChatzaf]

Joseph Biden, the dumbest, stupidest man to ever occupy the Vice Presidency, which is saying a lot, stated the following last night:

"Asked if he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator Biden responded: 'Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he's been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.'"

http://www.csmonitor...21b92d593d07c,0

Right. He is not a dictator. Just a guy who does not suffer political opposition gladly.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Think of me as a spiteful bigot if that keeps you happy.

Richard,

It doesn't "keep me happy." It fills me with sadness and pity. It really does.

Michael

Well, you shouldn't waste your time on it, because I am not a spiteful bigot. It's what you see, or think you see, but you are wrong. There's are far more important things to focus on. The recent bombing in the airport in Moscow and what it is is what's important. Whether or not I am a bigot is of zero value.

Russians name Muslim convert as prime suspect for airport bombing

By Shaun Walker in Moscow

Friday, 28 January 2011

REUTERS

An undated photo of Vitaly Razdobudko, released by the Russian authorities. The 32-year-old vanished last year

Security sources have named an ethnic Russian Christian who converted to Islam as the prime suspect in Monday's deadly suicide bombing at a Moscow airport.

http://www.independe...ng-2196704.html

Richard:

I wonder if Bob would consider this man a devoutly ecumenical terrorist being that he converted from Christianity to Islam? Or, maybe he is just a hateful person who would have found a path to violence in either religious creed?

Good thing he did not have one of them gun thingy's, Carol,

Adam

Edited January 29, 2011 by Selene

[Selene]

Folks:

This is the "official" English version website of the Muslim Brotherhood. I think it is important for all of us to become familiar with this organization that is about to achieve what it has been working for since 1928.

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

[william.scherk]

Joseph Biden, the dumbest, stupidest man to ever occupy the Vice Presidency, which is saying a lot, stated the following last night:

"Asked if he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator Biden responded: 'Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he's been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.'"

http://www.csmonitor...21b92d593d07c,0

Right. He is not a dictator. Just a guy who does not suffer political opposition gladly.

A very stupid thing to say on Biden's part.

It certainly will be hard for the US to navigate between "Treasured Ally" and "Our new Friend/Old Friend/New Regime/Old Regime with Facelift, given the longstanding relationship between the US and the Egyptian leadership. Clinton at least is a diplomat, and must use diplomatic language as the administration tries to figure out what to say as the crisis unfolds. Biden could have been kept in the box reserved for Dan Quayle. Distinctly unhelpful and stupid . . .

On balance I liked Bush better with regard to Egypt -- in the sense of being mealy-mouthed. The Egyptians cooled their relationship with the US because of Bush's outspoken, universal demands for human rights during his tenure. But the bind US foreign policy faces is pretty stark.

[Selene]

William:

Very troubling situation especially with the Suez Canal in play.

If this is true, O'bama has basically blown all credibility with the remaining "moderate" Middle Eastern dictators for good.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html

The secret document in full

"On December 23, April 6 activist xxxxxxxxxxxx expressed satisfaction with his participation in the December 3-5 \"Alliance of Youth Movements Summit,\" and with his subsequent meetings with USG officials, on Capitol Hill, and with think tanks. He described how

State Security (SSIS) detained him at the Cairo airport upon his return and confiscated his notes for his summit presentation calling

for democratic change in Egypt, and his schedule for his Congressional meetings. xxxxxxxxxxxx contended that the GOE will never undertake

significant reform, and therefore, Egyptians need to replace the current regime with a parliamentary democracy."

Nightmare.

Adam

[william.scherk]

If this is true, O'bama has basically blown all credibility with the remaining "moderate" Middle Eastern dictators for good.

I am not sure I understand your points, Adam.

From the first of your links: "On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011."

From the second link: "xxxxxxxxxxxx described his Washington appointments as positive, saying that on the Hill he met with xxxxxxxxxxxx, a variety of House staff members, including from the offices of xxxxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxxxx), and with two Senate staffers. xxxxxxxxxxxx also noted that he met with several think tank members. xxxxxxxxxxxx said that xxxxxxxxxxxx's office invited him to speak at a late January Congressional hearing on House Resolution 1303 regarding religious and political freedom in Egypt.

So, who was President in December of 2008, again? Which party sponsored HR 1303?

Do you actually think about the stuff you post? Do you want the US to support democratic dissent in these unnamed countries, or what?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Obama's hypocrisy on this issue makes me sick.

He's lecturing Mubarak on listening to the people.

Keriiiiist!

Where was he when they were demonstrating in Iran about election fraud?

I have read in a few places that the USA has been meddling big time in Egypt and is partially behind these demonstrations. There's a lot of monkey-business going on by Obama & Co. in this affair and I'm not sure what the real deal is. I am sure it will become apparent before too long and I am also sure it will be just as bad, if not worse, than what Bush did.

If Egypt gets a Muslim Brotherhood fundamentalist regime, i have no doubt the USA government will have had it's little toe in that water, screwing up big time as usual when it messes in Middle.East countries.

Michael

[william.scherk]

Obama's hypocrisy on this issue makes me sick.

He's lecturing Mubarak on listening to the people.

Keriiiiist!

What would any American leader have to say to Mubarak, Michael? What has he said to Mubarak and on the subject of Egypt's crisis that you wouldn't say, if you were the leader?

What direction would you give to the State Department? What difference do you see between the Bush administration and the Obama administration on this brief? It would be good to hear what your prescriptions would be for your country's policy on Egypt . . .

Can you please fetch up a link or two to let us follow these other reports you cite concerning 'meddling' by the US?

Edited January 29, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

If this is true, O'bama has basically blown all credibility with the remaining "moderate" Middle Eastern dictators for good.

I am not sure I understand your points, Adam.

From the first of your links: "On his return to Cairo in December 2008, the activist told US diplomats that an alliance of opposition groups had drawn up a plan to overthrow President Hosni Mubarak and install a democratic government in 2011."

From the second link: "xxxxxxxxxxxx described his Washington appointments as positive, saying that on the Hill he met with xxxxxxxxxxxx, a variety of House staff members, including from the offices of xxxxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxxxx), and with two Senate staffers. xxxxxxxxxxxx also noted that he met with several think tank members. xxxxxxxxxxxx said that xxxxxxxxxxxx's office invited him to speak at a late January Congressional hearing on House Resolution 1303 regarding religious and political freedom in Egypt.

So, who was President in December of 2008, again? Which party sponsored HR 1303?

Do you actually think about the stuff you post? Do you want the US to support democratic dissent in these unnamed countries, or what?

William:

You can keep taking those shots, but just read the selected quotes from the article. I doubt that anyone in the Executive Office even knew these plans were being made, if the story is true.

Second, the contacts continued, upon information and belief through at least 2009. I do not know if O'biwan knew about it.

Finally, the critical point for the rest of the Islamic world is that the US cannot be trusted. I believe the new Turkish Islamic government said that you can never be sure of being the United States ally because they will stab themselves in the back!

"Ambassador Scobey questioned whether such an “unrealistic” plot could work, or ever even existed. However, the documents showed that the activist had been approached by US diplomats and received extensive support for his pro-democracy campaign from officials in Washington. The embassy helped the campaigner attend a “summit” for youth activists in New York, which was organised by the US State Department."

"The documents released by WikiLeaks reveal US Embassy officials were in regular contact with the activist throughout 2008 and 2009, considering him one of their most reliable sources for information about human rights abuses."

From the report:

"...his Washington appointments as positive, saying that on the Hill he met with xxxxxxxxxxxx, a variety of House staff members, including from the offices of xxxxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxxxx), and with two Senate staffers. xxxxxxxxxxxx also noted that he met with several think tank members. xxxxxxxxxxxx said that xxxxxxxxxxxx's office invited him to speak at a late January [2009] Congressional hearing on House Resolution 1303 regarding religious and political freedom in Egypt."

I am assuming that he met with Democratic House and Senate members since they controlled both houses then.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Adam

[william.scherk]

Hope that clears things up for you.

I'm glad you took the time to read through the reports after being prodded.

I understand you regard Obama as a marxist monster, and that in itself does not trouble me unduly. Sometimes I am puzzled by hasty comments such as "O'bama has basically blown all credibility with the remaining "moderate" Middle Eastern dictators for good."

I don't see how you can rationally blame one man for the actions and policies of several administrations going back to 1952. It's not like Obama has done anything different in the Middle East. No US President has copped to propping up authoritarian regimes. I expect all US presidents to carry out a policy both aboveground and below that enhances American power and influence, by diplomacy, public pressure, cash, kisses, whatever. I also expect every US administration to use every means of gathering intelligence and putting teeth into its public statements about 'free expression, free press, freedom of conscience' and so on. I would be appalled as an American if I learned that it was all just lip service . . .

In other words, I am heartened by the US engagement with democratic forces, and reassured that the US helps out legitimate dissenters find support in your country. American ideals of political freedom are powerful, universal, and the great struggle of America in the past century has been to put meat on those fine bones.

America is impressive in its ideals of freedom, and it is most impressive when it puts its money where its mouth is.

Like I asked, "Do you want the US to support democratic dissent in these unnamed countries, or what?" I am interested in your response and how it fits into your preferred course for your country as it deals with the unprecedented uprisings . . .

I will challenge you (or anyone) when I see something sloppy, biased or misinformed. It's not personal, brother. If you might do a bit more homework before you dash off a post, you would get fewer challenges. We are on the same side when it comes to freedom and reason.

Turkey is a NATO ally of your country and mine. Their bitch is with Israel . . .

Edited January 29, 2011 by william.scherk

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

I saw this stuff earlier today, but I can't find it right now.

There were some things from Wikileaks documents...

All I can find right now is a blog of dubious credibility and several reports of tear gas canisters marked "Made in U.S.A."

Oops... Just looked one last time and found one:

U.S. secretly supported Egyptian opposition groups: Wikileaks

International Business Times

There's more, but it's late.

As to what Obama should have said to Mubarak, I think he should have kept his mouth shut until he learns more about how it plays out. Just like he did with Iran.

I believe he's blabbering right now because he has a pretty good idea of how it might turn out.

I don't trust that dude. (Yup. I just called the USA President a "dude.") His consistent style--time after time--is to present a public face with one message, do backroom deals on the sly, then spring the results on people after the point of no return.

Michael

[pippi]

Michael-I was listening to Michael Savage and he suggested Obama defended the uprising in Egypt because of the possibility of the Muslim Brotherhood being behind it and and didn't support the uprisings in Iran because they weren't Muslim generated.

I am just throwing this out there-I sincerely do not know all the specifics.

He also said if the uprising wins in Egypt both sides of the Suez canal will be Muslim controlled and oil prices will skyrocket. I know he is an alarmist (probably for the sake of ratings) but I thought it was interesting.

Pippi

Edited January 29, 2011 by pippi

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Pippi,

Obama also stands to gain much with his Green Policies if oil becomes complicated.

Michael

[pippi]

Pippi,

Obama also stands to gain much with his Green Policies if oil becomes complicated.

Michael

At what cost? At whose sacrifice? (I think that is a Rand quote sort of)

ugh

[Selene]

Hope that clears things up for you.

Not much.

I'm glad you took the time to read through the reports after being prodded.

I understand you regard Obama as a marxist monster, and that in itself does not trouble me unduly. Sometimes I am puzzled by hasty comments such as "O'bama has basically blown all credibility with the remaining "moderate" Middle Eastern dictators for good."

I don't see how you can rationally blame one man for the actions and policies of several administrations going back to 1952. It's not like Obama has done anything different in the Middle East. No US President has copped to propping up authoritarian regimes. I expect all US presidents to carry out a policy both aboveground and below that enhances American power and influence, by diplomacy, public pressure, cash, kisses, whatever. I also expect every US administration to use every means of gathering intelligence and putting teeth into its public statements about 'free expression, free press, freedom of conscience' and so on. I would be appalled as an American if I learned that it was all just lip service . . .

In other words, I am heartened by the US engagement with democratic forces, and reassured that the US helps out legitimate dissenters find support in your country. American ideals of political freedom are powerful, universal, and the great struggle of America in the past century has been to put meat on those fine bones.

America is impressive in its ideals of freedom, and it is most impressive when it puts its money where its mouth is.

Like I asked, "Do you want the US to support democratic dissent in these unnamed countries, or what?" I am interested in your response and how it fits into your preferred course for your country as it deals with the unprecedented uprisings . . .

I will challenge you (or anyone) when I see something sloppy, biased or misinformed. It's not personal, brother. If you might do a bit more homework before you dash off a post, you would get fewer challenges.

Turkey is a NATO ally of your country and mine. Their bitch is with Israel . . .

William:

Turkey is a "nominal ally" at this point in time. Its turn towards a Muslim government has changed it's gestalt. Turkey has, as I am sure you are aware an extremely peculiar history.

O'bama is a marxist. If you have not read his books, I suggest you do. His mentor's from the time he was eight were hard core, card carrying communists. His father and grandfather hated the United States and white European Colonial powers. His entire training and enculturation is not rooted in the concepts that founded this country.

Secondly, he is not exceptionally wise in terms of economic or global affairs. He is, in my opinion, way over his head in terms of administrative skills, business acumen and the ability to judge a persons qualifications to administer agencies.

However, he is exceptionally cunning and manipulative. He has his playbook and he is going to run his agenda. I believe that he wants to radically transform this nation by leveling its power in relation to the rest of the world.

He is an ideologue.

Now in terms of my positions on "freedom movements" throughout the world:

1) the U.S.should support all freedom movements, covertly and overtly where ever they exist;

2) the U.S. should finance them;

3) the U.S. should also utilize extremely aggressive intelligence resources to eliminate oppressive dictatorships where ever they exist and whether they are monarchial, fascist, communist, theological, etc.

4) here is the tricky part, it should be done with the least use of military power.

We should be the beacon of the world. I agree with you completely on that issue.

The devil is in the details though.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

As a PS, in one of those weird coincidences that have been happening in my life recently, this just came up on Drudge:

How's that for a source?

Here's the link: Egypt protests: America's secret backing for rebel leaders behind uprising (Telegraph)

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just saw this on The Blaze, too.

WikiLeaks: U.S. Gov‘t ’Secretly Backed’ Egyptian Dissidents Plotting Regime Change

That's enough for now. Dayaamm!

But I have a feeling this news is going to grow.

Michael

[william.scherk]

Now in terms of my positions on "freedom movements" throughout the world:

1) the U.S.should support all freedom movements, covertly and overtly where ever they exist;

2) the U.S. should finance them;

3) the U.S. should also utilize extremely aggressive intelligence resources to eliminate oppressive dictatorships where ever they exist and whether they are monarchial, fascist, communist, theological, etc.

4) here is the tricky part, it should be done with the least use of military power.

Fair enough.

What I wonder is what a US President and administration should do and say to put your favoured policies in practice.

[caroljane]

Will

O'bama is a marxist... His father and grandfather hated the United States and white European Colonial powers. His entire enculturation....

Would that grandfather be the white one who brought him up, with the elite American high school Punahou setting the seal on his enculturation? What a sleeper agent, what a conspiracy!

[Selene]

William:

First, plan on being a one term President A second term would be a blessing.

I am working on your answer and will post it sometime on Saturday.

I am waiting to hear from my Egyptian friend and his family.

Adam

[Mike11]

Finally, after 6 pages of bull shit this thread is beginning to go somewhere.

Thanks to everyone who is not Bob, Krolker or Infidel.

[Richard Wiig]

Richard:

I wonder if Bob would consider this man a devoutly ecumenical terrorist being that he converted from Christianity to Islam? Or, maybe he is just a hateful person who would have found a path to violence in either religious creed?

Good thing he did not have one of them gun thingy's, Carol,

Adam

If he had a psychological drive to commit violence against others, then he found a sanctioning of it in Islam. If Christianity offered it to him then he wouldn't need to convert would he. I don't know why you even entertain the idea, given the overwhelmingly obvious difference between the two. Whether he was made by Islam, or psychologically prone to violence prior to Islam, is irrelevant. Islam sanctions the violence either way. Islam is the perfect creed for every would be murderer and thug. That is the reality of it.