  Laure

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Everything posted by Laure

2. Thom, I still don't see what you're getting at with the "M" statements, but I think I understand your problem with statements such as HP4. Please see the thread I started, "Question on Conditionalizing", and visit the Wikipedia links mentioned there. I think you're a fan of "strict implication", which means that we look at the meaning of the P's and Q's and ask ourself if the P being true would in any way cause the Q to be true, and if not, we consider "P --> Q" to be false, even though the normal symbolic logic we learn in school says that it evaluates to true if P is false. I don't see any problem with conventional symbolic logic. We just need to define our terms so everyone is on the same page. In the link in the other thread on "paradoxes", the author mentions the idea that an argument with false premises can be logically "valid" although it is not logically "sound." I can go along with that, and suspect that you can, too. It's just a matter of defining our terms.
3. A basic question, Roger. Do you agree that for all x, x+0=x? If not, how do you do the algebraic simplification step that gets us from: x + 0 = y + 1 to x = y + 1? If you agree that we can "drop the '+ 0'", how is that in any way different from "substituting 'x' in place of 'x + 0'"? Like my hero Spock says, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference." (He probably got it from some philosopher but I dunno... )
4. Come on, Merlin, pay attention, fer chrissake! Laure (whom you were defending) was trying to show how ~MY PREMISES~ lead to a contradiction, and I was showing how they do not, that any attempt to use the distribute law gambit ended up with OTHER expressions that were undefined BY MY PREMISES. In other words, she AND YOU have failed to show a contradiction in my argument so far. "Fatally flawed" my pasty, white ass. You people are better than this, aren't you? REB I was trying to show the contradiction in your saying that 0*1=0 but 1*0 is "undefined". I think what I showed was that for your system to be consistent, 0*1 must also be "undefined". I think if we go through all the symbol manipulations, we will end up with everything in Roger's system being "undefined." Go through my postulates carefully and indicate all the modifications you would make, then we will see how things shake out.
5. Roger, of course you don't use "0" to "do" things, any more than you use "5" to "do" things. "0" and "5" are symbols; they are nouns. The operators (+,-,x,/) are the verbs; they are what "do" things. I say again, show me your equality principles and postulates.
6. I showed you my equality principles and postulates. Show me yours, Roger. Let's nail down the specifics of your system, and then we will see whether it is logically inconsistent or just consistent and useless!
7. Well,... yeah! The whole idea of mathematics is to abstract away the units, or the referents in reality, so that we can just manipulate the symbols. That's why we can say 2+2=4 and it doesn't matter 2 of what. We don't have to stop and think, "OK, if I take 2 apples and add 2 apples, I have 4 apples. But, what if I had 2 oranges and add 2 oranges?? Gee, what could the answer be?"
8. Roger, "for all x, y, z, (x+y)+z = (x+z)+y" is a postulate in my math. "For all x, y, x+y = y+x" is another postulate. So, (1-1) + (1-1) = (1+(1-1)) -1 = ((1-1)+1)-1 = 0+1-1 = 1-1 = 0. Let's keep it real simple. Roger says x+0 is incalculable. Roger, would you agree that if you see "x+0" in an equation, that you can simply substitute "x", since the "+0" does nothing? Well, when we say that "x+0=x", we are saying precisely that "we can substitute 'x' for 'x+0'". That is what it MEANS. "x+0" is synonymous with "x". Another example, this idea that 0*1 is 0 but 1*0 is undefined. Let's go back to Montessori Preschool for a moment. If we want to show what 2*3 is, we can lay out some pennies in 2 rows and 3 columns. If we want to show what 3*2 is, we can lay out the pennies in 3 rows and 2 columns. Now let's try 0*1. Roger says that's OK. 0 rows and 1 column. 0 pennies. How about 1*0? Oh, we could have 0 rows of pennies, but 0 columns is verboten! What if we go round to the side? So Roger, if 1 row of 0 columns is verboten, so is 0 rows of 1 column. So you can't have it both ways. If you object to 1*0, you can't "do" 0*1 either. The empty set means a set with no elements. Saying that there is no such thing as the empty set is as silly as objecting to the use of the word "nothing". If we have 5 chairs and add none, we still have 5 chairs. Why is it "forbidden" to say that we have added none? Just because Rand made a comment disparaging the "reification of the zero"? She was just complaining about philosophers who glommed onto the concept "zero" and tried to give it some mystical interpretation. You say "there isn't any kinetic energy", and we say "the kinetic energy is zero". It's the same thing! There is nothing to be gained by avoiding the word "zero" like a taboo! Here are the equality principles and postulates of my math: Show me yours. I think what you'll find (best-case scenario) is that if you create a new symbol for your special "I can't say 'zero' so let's say 'undefined'", (0*0=#) you will find that that symbol "#" is redundant, and is equivalent to "0". Worst-case, you end up with a system that contains a contradiction.
10. Thanks for the quick reply! So, given that the moon is a satellite, "if the moon is not a satellite, then the moon is a satellite" is just a funny little tautology and not a paradox.
11. I have a question for the logic experts on the forum. (I'm not an expert, but I had a symbolic logic course in college and was the top student, and I had the benefit of a high school math curriculum that emphasized proofs. As a programmer, I use boolean logic just about every day.) In looking back at my high school math book, it describes Modus Ponens, Modus Tollens, and all that good stuff. It describes "Conditionalization": a conditional sentence follows from its consequent. So, if Q is true, P-->Q is true for any old P. 1) Is my interpretation correct, or does P have to be something that was previously used in order to derive Q? 2) My textbook gives an example that has Q as "The moon is a satellite", and two possible P's: "The moon is made of green cheese" and "The moon is not made of green cheese". It says either of the green-cheese statements can be used as P, and P-->Q is true in either case. This kind of makes sense, since we KNOW that the moon is a satellite, no matter what, so if the moon is made of green cheese, it's a satellite, and if it's not made of green cheese, it's a satellite. My question is, what about "If the moon is not a satellite, the moon is a satellite"? True statement? Is this considered a paradox, or is it just a perfectly valid, if strange, application of conditionalizing? (This post is not trying to start an argument; I just want to learn something from the experts. I defer to Ba'al & Merlin (and maybe even Dragonfly!).)
12. Question: what is the square of 0? It is 0*0. And what is 0*0 ? It is 0. In fact 0^n, for n > 0 is 0. Proof: 0^1 = 0 so the thing is true for n = 1. Suppose 0^n = 0. Then 0^(n+1) = (0^n)*(0^1) = 0*0 = 0 The induction completes the proof. For all n >= 1 0^n = 0 Ba'al Chatzaf 0 does not have a square. 0*0 is undefined. 0^n is NOT 0*0 n times. It is 1 * n factors of zero. There is no number that corresponds to n factors of zero. 0*0 n times is just as undefined as 0*0 is. So 0^n = 1. No induction necessary here. REB *sigh* Roger, now you're saying that 0*0 is undefined, but 0^n = 1. But 0^2 is just another way of writing 0*0. So, if 0*0 is undefined, then 0^2 must be undefined; it's the SAME THING. Are you saying that 0^n is undefined for n=2, but 1 for n not equal to 2?? Here's another grade-school example of why that just doesn't work. What's (1-1) * (1-1) ? If we simplify what's inside the parentheses first, we get 0 * 0, which in RogerLand is Undefined. But, if we use the good old "FOIL" method to distribute it out, we get 1 - 1 - 1 + 1. Compute it left to right, we get 0 - 1 + 1, or -1 + 1, or 0. So (1 - 1) * (1 - 1) both equals zero and is undefined. In your math, can something equal zero AND be undefined? Or don't you believe that (x + y)*(z + w) = x*z + x*w + y*z + y*w? Your system has a contradiction. Face up to it.
13. Thom, I'm sorry, but I think there's something I don't understand. I don't know the point you are trying to make about these "M" statements. You say, "MI1. Add dollar now if HP1." I interpret that as "if HP1 is true, then add a dollar". Is that correct? That is an imperative statement, not a material implication. If you want to phrase it as a material implication, you could say, "if HP1 was true then a dollar was just added", and you assume that your person with the money is "obedient", then the "M" statements are always true, because it's always the case that either a dollar was added or the HPn was false. So, what is it that I'm not understanding? I really think we may be able to get to the point where one or the other of us says, "Oh, OK, I get it."
14. Oh, that's interesting... so 0^1 = 0^2 = 1 or in other words, 0 = 1 and 0 * 0 = 1 ? That is Objectivist mathematics? Bingo! Roger, you have just stated that 0 = 1. You can certainly come up with your own mathematical system where 0 = 1, but I thought you liked math to be useful in practical applications!
15. Roger, the simplest way to explain why 0^0 should be thought of as undefined is to note that for nonzero n, 0^n = 0, and n^0 = 1. You'll accept that, right? So, what happens at zero? Is 0^0 = 0 or is 0^0 = 1? It depends which formula you use. Since it can't be both zero and one, it must be undefined. Also, you've got a contradiction in your post 106. First you say, Then you say, Here, you are taking (1 * (0^n)) / (1 * (0^n)) and you say 0^n is "nothing", i.e. 0. So, you are here assuming that 1 * 0 = 1, when above, you said that x * 0 = 0. *edit* Also, defining 0/0 as 1, as you want to do, can allow you to "prove" contradictions, and that's not a good thing! Here's a link to a good example of this: *Algebra Quandry*. I think you're trying to do math with the right side of your brain. Question for you: explain to me what a number like, say, 8 to the 0.4325 power corresponds to in reality?
16. OK, Thom, here's how I coded it. It's possible that I made a mistake somewhere, but here's what I have. (I made no attempt to make it elegant, because I want to show everything as explicitly as possible.) #include <stdio.h> void main() { int Table = {1,0,0,0,0,0,0}; // Table starts with 1 dollar int Hand = {4,0,0,0,0,0,0}; // Hand starts with 4 dollars if (Table!=1 || &Table) // Note" "||" means OR { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 1 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 1 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } if (Table!=2 || Table == Table + 1) { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 2 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 2 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } if (Table != 3 || Hand == 3) { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 3 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 3 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } if (Table!=2 ||Table == Table + 1) { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 4 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 4 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } if (Table != 3 || Hand == 0) { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 5 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 5 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } if (Table <= 0 || Hand > 0) { Table = Table + 1; Hand = Hand - 1; printf("Step 6 TRUE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } else { Table = Table; Hand = Hand; printf("Step 6 FALSE, Table=%d, Hand=%d\n", Table, Hand); } } My output is: Step 1 TRUE, Table=2, Hand=3 Step 2 TRUE, Table=3, Hand=2 Step 3 FALSE, Table=3, Hand=2 Step 4 TRUE, Table=4, Hand=1 Step 5 TRUE, Table=5, Hand=0 Step 6 FALSE, Table=5, Hand=0
17. Gosh, I guess I'm not human. I'm feeling more like Ba'al every day. In answer to your last post, Thom, I got "5". I admit some of them were a little tricky, so I had to be careful to express all the "if p then q" statements as "q or not p". Humans often read an "if" and wrongly assume that it means "if and only if". I don't really know what you mean by evaluating the instructions MI1 through MI6. Do you mean performing them? Or determining their truth-value? I'm going to write you up a little computer program that will run your example, but I cannot put an "if-then-do" into an "if" statement as the expression to be evaluated; it's a syntax error. I could make a function called AddADollarIfTrue, and pass in the truth-value of the H statement above it. Then I could decide if I want that function to return "true" in all cases or only if I've added a dollar; it's up to how I want to code it. You haven't answered whether you dispute that "if p then q" is equivalent in truth-value to "q or not p", and if so, what you think the problem is.
18. Amen, Ba'al! (but, shouldn't a^n / a^(-n) be a^n / a^n ?)
19. Thom, you haven't shown how the practical logic as practiced by a programmer or circuit designer contradicts in any way the state model of logic that you're railing against. "If p then q" is truth-value equivalent to "q or not p", and I can prove it. When can "if p then q" be false? Only in the case that q and not p. There are four possibilities: p and q, p and not q, q and not p, and not q and not p. "If p then q" is false for one of those cases, "If p then q" is either true or false, so... for the other three cases, "if p then q" is true. The other three cases are: p and q, q and not p, and not q and not p, which reduces to: q or not p. What part of that do you dispute? I think your whole line of thinking here is based on the same kind of misapprehension as the novice in a programming class, seeing the statement x = y+1 and saying "no it isn't!" instead of realizing that in a program, x = y+1 is not an algebraic assertion, but an operation: it means "set x equal to y plus 1". Likewise, in a computer program, we wouldn't typically evaluate the truth-value of "if p then q"; we evaluate the truth-value of p, and if it's true, we DO the ACTION q.
20. I was going to say "true", but actually Baal has the correct answer here. There's no need for a poll; this is how it is! :edit: So, "gfd" doesn't appear anywhere else in the article??? Why would the author use it, then? I'd still go with "it's either true or false", but you'd have to look to other sources to determine which it is, because we don't know if there are any gfd.
21. Roger, you can call x + 0 a non-sum if you feel like it, but my point is that there is absolutely no need to make a special case out of it. It works just like 0 + x; it doesn't need to be treated any differently.
22. Roger, come on! X*0 IS defined. It's 0. X-0 IS defined. It's X. X+0 IS defined. It's X. As I pointed out in my other post, if you say these things are undefined, you are going to be stopped dead in your tracks when you get: X = 12 + 14 - 14... X = 12 + 0... *freak out!! -- gaah!! -- undefined!!* Dividing by zero is fundamentally different from adding, subtracting, multiplying by zero. Draw a graph of y = 1/x, for goodness' sake. It goes to infinity at x = 0. Now draw a graph of y = 1 + x. It goes to 1 at x = 0. Didn't Ayn Rand say "A is A is all there is to metaphysics. All the rest is epistemology."? I want to reiterate that numbers are not operators, they are operands. They're "nouns" if you like, while the operators are "verbs" (adding, subtracting, squaring...). You compare adding zero to dividing by zero, when really what it's like is dividing by 1. What does it mean to "divide a number by 1"? You're NOT dividing it at all, right? But that doesn't mean that we say that x/1 is "undefined" - it's not, it equals x. Just like x + 0 is not "undefined", it's x. Think "Occam's Razor", keep it simple.
23. I don't know what silly things some Objectivists may have been expounding in mathematics, but I didn't read anything in ITOE that contradicted what I learned in math. I don't know where Roger gets this stuff about numbers being operators! "Plus" is an operator. A number is an operand. Example in pseudocode: Plus(a,b ) { return a+b } Plus3(a) { return a+3 } In the second one, 3 is a constant, or you can think of the function as being y = x + 3. The operator is "plus" and it is acting on the operands x and 3. Roger, you seem to be saying that 0 + x does not equal x + 0. If it doesn't, then what IS x + 0? If you're chugging along trying to solve an equation, and you get it down to: x = 12 + 14 - 14 ... x = 12 + 0 ... Is your next step "Ah Ah Ah, x is undefined because you cannot add zero to anything"? Or do you say x = 12?