Jon,
It's tough trying to explain my state of mind re the credibility of the liars to people who are emotionally wedded to the Ruling Class Establishment institutions.
They want to keep talking about these institutions and people as if there were something serious to gain from it. To me, it's like trying to tell them I don't find anything the spirit cooking lady says about, say, Ayn Rand's fiction credible to people who do, and who regularly consume art made with semen, blood and honey.
If they want to consume that art, that's their business. But I want nothing to do with it and