The Muslims are Taking Over The World

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

A point of information before the mini war that will be occurring between Rich and yourself...

Since I am taking you as an expert in Islam, as you perceive it, which I respect, is there a conversion to Islam or is it a "reversion"?

I have seen both used with equal passion.

Is there a scholarly agreement on which is correct, or, if both can be used?

Thanks.

Adam

Reversion is generally used because we believe that all people are born Muslim, it's only the environment that they are brought up in that changes them. So we believe that upon coming back to Islam, you revert.

But saying convert is no problem at all.

[anthony]

Adonis,

I'm still having difficulty working out if you are over here to buy or to sell.

I would find it encouraging to know that you are promoting libertarianism on some Muslim forums, to the same degree that you are promoting Islam here to Objectivists and Libertarians.

Are you?

As the future global majority, the Muslim world may find value in individual rights, the principle of non-initiation of force, etc.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I am not convinced of a future global majority for Islam.

I have seen no real evidence to demonstrate that assertion.

Islam is growing right now. It's just as likely that it will continue growing as it will taper off over time. History happens according to world events (meaning interaction and collision of many different interests), not according to biased speculations.

Michael

[Selene]

I am not convinced of a future global majority for Islam.

I have seen no real evidence to demonstrate that assertion.

Islam is growing right now. It's just as likely that it will continue growing as it will taper off over time. History happens according to world events (meaning interaction and collision of many different interests), not according to biased speculations.

Michael

Yes, I agree.

I did a quick look while I was talking with a client. As it turns out, the burden seems to me to be on the religion to declare a standard of measuring the growth and to set a marking point. Is the rate, total numbers with all sorts of clever model predictions?

It sure is not clear.

ttp://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion

http://atlasofglobalchristianity.org/images/samplepages_3.pdf

Adam

[bmacwilliam]

Muslim women aren't complacent breeding machines. It's not what we want from them either. In fact I think you'll find that in places like Australia, the US, New Zealand, Canada, the UK etc that Muslim women are enrolled at university at a higher rate than their Anglo- non Muslim counterparts. Why is that?

If you have one rational molecule in your body, you'd see it would do yourself a whole lot of good to reflect seriously on this question. The answer is clear.

Why does this happen?

This happens when women are freed from the misogynistic Islamo-nonsense that infects countries that still live in the political stone age because the separation of church and state is an alien concept.

All world religions have a firm footing in the irrational, but Islam, at least recently, seems to spewing irrational nonsense at a stupefying rate.

Bob

[Libertarian Muslim]

If you have one rational molecule in your body, you'd see it would do yourself a whole lot of good to reflect seriously on this question. The answer is clear.

Why does this happen?

This happens when women are freed from the misogynistic Islamo-nonsense that infects countries that still live in the political stone age because the separation of church and state is an alien concept.

All world religions have a firm footing in the irrational, but Islam, at least recently, seems to spewing irrational nonsense at a stupefying rate.

Bob

What an ignorant statement, where'd you get your information from? Fox News?

I lived in the Middle East and women there attend universities at much higher rates than their Western counterparts do. Even in places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran and Pakistan etc.

I just didn't mention women in the Middle East because I was primarily referring to the West.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

I'm still having difficulty working out if you are over here to buy or to sell.

I would find it encouraging to know that you are promoting libertarianism on some Muslim forums, to the same degree that you are promoting Islam here to Objectivists and Libertarians.

Are you?

As the future global majority, the Muslim world may find value in individual rights, the principle of non-initiation of force, etc.

Tony

Well if you're asking whether I am on Islamic internet forums such as this promoting Libertarianism then the answer is most definitely not, I barely have time for this forum due to working fulltime and studying at university.

Instead I'm focusing on working with Libertarians and focusing on the Muslim community in my area for the time being.

Also, the principle of non-initiation of force? I'm sorry but it's not the Muslim community that needs to learn this.. It's the West..

Edited March 10, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[sbeaulieu]

I would find it encouraging to know that you are promoting libertarianism on some Muslim forums, to the same degree that you are promoting Islam here to Objectivists and Libertarians.

Just to clear up a misconception, Adonis in an advocate/follower of Islam. From the threads I've read, I've yet to see him promote Islam, as in trying to convert us.

~ Shane

[tjohnson]

Call it racism or tribalism, it's still going to happen in that sitaution.

the word 'race' is very ambiguous. It is often used to mean your religion, country of origin, ethnic background, etc. Perhaps discrimination is the best term. In this case I guess it would be discrimination on the basis of religion.

[bmacwilliam]

If you have one rational molecule in your body, you'd see it would do yourself a whole lot of good to reflect seriously on this question. The answer is clear.

Why does this happen?

This happens when women are freed from the misogynistic Islamo-nonsense that infects countries that still live in the political stone age because the separation of church and state is an alien concept.

All world religions have a firm footing in the irrational, but Islam, at least recently, seems to spewing irrational nonsense at a stupefying rate.

Bob

What an ignorant statement, where'd you get your information from? Fox News?

I lived in the Middle East and women there attend universities at much higher rates than their Western counterparts do. Even in places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran and Pakistan etc.

I just didn't mention women in the Middle East because I was primarily referring to the West.

You said "Muslim women aren't complacent breeding machines. It's not what we want from them either." and you offer University attendance (in the Middle East now) as evidence of what? Enlightned, fair, and equal treatment of women in the middle east? What a joke. But they're making some gains.

Women got the right to vote in Kuwait in 2005.

Jordan and Tunisia just introduced legal protection against domestic violence.

Do you even know how long the list is of Middle East countries that have NO legal concept of spousal rape?

Shafeeq Ghabra (professor of political science at Kuwait University) - not Fox News - also agrees that University Graduation rates for Middle Eastern women are high, but doesn't conveniently leave out the other side of the picture - ie -

"Yet at the same time there is a strong Islamic movement in the region which is inhibiting women's rights, through segregation laws in universities and at the workplace, limited working hours for women and initiatives like this that try to keep women's advancement in check"

Here's a few tidbits regarding Saudi women graduates

"Women account for almost two-thirds of university graduates but only seven percent of the Saudi work force."

"Government leadership is totally male, with the exception of a woman deputy minister of education, appointed this year, the first-ever female with ministerial rank."

"Guided by a strict interpretation of Islamic teachings, Saudi society has some of the world's toughest controls on women.

Women can not drive, must have a male relative's permission and company when moving outside the home, and are banned from mixing with unrelated males, whether in universities or government or private sector offices. "

We could argue all day whether or not it's Islam itself, or a perverted interpretation of Islam that results in this nonsense, but it's pretty clear that women in these countries go to university in spite of, or to escape this treatment, but certainly NOT as a result of their "high" status.

Bob

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What's wrong with Fox News?

I happen to like Fox News. Especially Glenn Beck. Most of their coverage is balanced, albeit the most popular show hosts are slanted to a small-government view.

Michael

[jeffrey smith]

Do you even know how long the list is of Middle East countries that have NO legal concept of spousal rape?

Bob

I suggest that you drop that particular item out of the litany. Even here in the US, the concept of spousal rape is a very modern idea, one that began to take hold only within the last twenty five years or so. A jurisdiction that does not recognize spousal rape is not very far behind the times. (There may even be still some states here in the US were the concept is not accepted law, although hopefully I'm wrong on that point.)

Jeffrey S.

[Robert Campbell]

Also, the principle of non-initiation of force? I'm sorry but it's not the Muslim community that needs to learn this.. It's the West..

Adonis,

I find this comment curious.

Is the Muslim community everyone who considers himself or herself a Muslim?

Including, for instance, the Sa'udi wahhabi clerics you often profess to despise?

Or does it consist only of those whose interpretation of Islam you personally consider correct?

And, if you mean the latter, how big would you say the present-day Muslim community actually is?

Robert Campbell

[anthony]

I would find it encouraging to know that you are promoting libertarianism on some Muslim forums, to the same degree that you are promoting Islam here to Objectivists and Libertarians.

Just to clear up a misconception, Adonis in an advocate/follower of Islam. From the threads I've read, I've yet to see him promote Islam, as in trying to convert us.

~ Shane

Shane,

Convert us? No, you misread me.

Let me rather call it 'educating' us. I'm sure the value of it varies from one person to the next. Are we educating him?

I am much more interested in what Adonis is getting out of it (the trader principle, remember? ) and if he could apply some of O'ism and Reason to correspondence with fellow Muslims.

I've seen him spend many hours online here, so maybe something has "taken" - because from my point of view, he could take more from us, than we from him. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Tony

[merjet]

I lived in the Middle East and women there attend universities at much higher rates than their Western counterparts do. Even in places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran and Pakistan etc.

LOL, especially regarding Saudi Arabia. They enroll, but what do they attain? Most go to become teachers (elementary to high school) at all girls schools and their drop-out rate is alarming.

Girls also drop out of university at an alarming rate - the dropout rate reached approximately 60% in the academic year 2005-06.

"Women's degrees are concentrated in education and teaching, human sciences, natural sciences, and Islamic studies. Of all female university graduates in 2007, 93% had degrees in education and teaching or human sciences," Al Munajjed commented.

http://www.ameinfo.com/199773.html

[sbeaulieu]

Shane,

Convert us? No, you misread me.

Let me rather call it 'educating' us. I'm sure the value of it varies from one person to the next. Are we educating him?

I am much more interested in what Adonis is getting out of it (the trader principle, remember? ) and if he could apply some of O'ism and Reason to correspondence with fellow Muslims.

I've seen him spend many hours online here, so maybe something has "taken" - because from my point of view, he could take more from us, than we from him. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Tony

Tony,

I'm following you, and would agree. It would be interesting to read what reactions he was getting from his Muslim counterparts with regard to O'ism.

~ Shane

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Shane and Tony,

This is the kind of stuff I am interested in. That is where the common ground grows.

Also, you say Adonis has not impacted people on OL, but I would bet a lot (and I would win) that many readers who have only had a stereotyped image of Muslims as fed by anti-Islamic outlets have not had contact with a libertarian Muslim before. So they see that this merge is not only possible, it's desired by at least one Muslim. (I have no doubt there are many, though.) He even interprets Islam from a libertarian angle.

I believe this stuff is extremely healthy.

Michael

[sbeaulieu]

Michael,

I should have clarified my agreement with Tony: his first paragraph. A good friend of mine, Moses, is Muslim. Religion was never really a topic of discussion, other than he didn't eat pork. One helluva guy, and I'm proud to call him a friend. I would bet his mindset is similar to Adonis's.

Adonis has definitely shattered the anti-Islamic media's image of blood-thirsty zealots (albeit, there are those as with any religion).

Consider me impacted.

~ Shane

[Robert Campbell]

The video Adonis posted at the top of thread was a fear-mongering hunk of junk. It makes Mark Steyn or Robert Spencer look like Mr. Rogers. And I suspect the numbers have been fried.

I would like to see how Adonis thinks that more Muslims (including a number of sects and subgroups he thinks ill of) can be persuaded of the basic sociopolitical value of not initiating force. That hasn't become clear in the discussion up to now.

I also keep finding more than a little rhetoric in his posts attributing the world's biggest problems and flashpoints to the malign influence of American imperialism. It reads like standard-issue Western Leftism (though such sentiments are not unheard of among libertarians).

Does Adonis really think that, in the absence of American political and military influence, India and Pakistan will promptly get all neighborly?

Robert Campbell

[ginny]

Robert, Adonis was undoubtedly raised (I'm guessing here) in an anti-American atmosphere and amidst a lot of Muslim propaganda. The fact that he's willing to "talk" at all is admirable. He has definite ideas and presents them mostly in a polite manner. I disagree with some of his ideas (his ready acceptance of stoning gives my chills). My best guess is that he's a proud Muslim who'd like to see his world get a lot better. I can live with that. I hope his world gets a lot better, too.

Ginny

[Selene]

Robert, Adonis was undoubtedly raised (I'm guessing here) in an anti-American atmosphere and amidst a lot of Muslim propaganda. The fact that he's willing to "talk" at all is admirable. He has definite ideas and presents them mostly in a polite manner. I disagree with some of his ideas (his ready acceptance of stoning gives my chills). My best guess is that he's a proud Muslim who'd like to see his world get a lot better. I can live with that. I hope his world gets a lot better, too.

Ginny

Ginny:

He actually "reverted" at the age of seventeen (17) based on Malcom X's Hadj and what he transformed into after that event.

Adam

[ginny]

Yeah, I've been curious about that. No one's asked him where he lived and what he was before that. I'm tempted, but he'd probably consider it rude. His English is so good I've wondered if he's not from here. If that's the case, and if he abandoned America for Islam, then we part ways. That I just can't buy into.

Ginny

[Libertarian Muslim]

Robert, Adonis was undoubtedly raised (I'm guessing here) in an anti-American atmosphere and amidst a lot of Muslim propaganda. The fact that he's willing to "talk" at all is admirable. He has definite ideas and presents them mostly in a polite manner. I disagree with some of his ideas (his ready acceptance of stoning gives my chills). My best guess is that he's a proud Muslim who'd like to see his world get a lot better. I can live with that. I hope his world gets a lot better, too.

Ginny

Wow, Ginny.. You're quite wrong about me there.. What gave you the impression that I was 'undoubtedly' raised in such a place?

Ginny:

He actually "reverted" at the age of seventeen (17) based on Malcom X's Hadj and what he transformed into after that event.

Adam

Almost! I reverted at the age of 16, not based on Malcolm X's Hajj, rather it was his dedication to attaining justice for African Americans and willingness to give his life for it that set me on the path towards Islam. Ultimately it was Islam's stance on justice that made me convert amongst other things.

Yeah, I've been curious about that. No one's asked him where he lived and what he was before that. I'm tempted, but he'd probably consider it rude. His English is so good I've wondered if he's not from here. If that's the case, and if he abandoned America for Islam, then we part ways. That I just can't buy into.

Ginny

I have stated it numerous times I believe. I was born and raised in Australia. I have excellent English and thankfully no Australian accent. I also disagree that becoming Muslim means that you've abandoned your country, quite the contrary actually. I believe that if a Muslim properly understands the Libertarian ideas within Islam it would make them stick up for the constitution more and thus become a better American.

[ginny]

Well, I said I was guessing. Had no idea you were an Aussie. Okay, so you embraced Islam. Can't imagine why, but let's accept it. What puzzles me then, since you were raised under circumstances where women are treated equally (and strut the beatches in bikinis) how you can at some point accept their obedient status to their husband? As for the whole stoning thing - nope, I can't even go there. Actually, if you don't mind telling us (if I've missed it, I apologize) what would compel you to make such a major conversion? Was it just reading Malcom X? Seems like a big step. If my questions are personal enough to be rude, just ignore. But you seem willing enough to share.

ginny

Edited March 12, 2010 by ginny

[BaalChatzaf]

I have stated it numerous times I believe. I was born and raised in Australia. I have excellent English and thankfully no Australian accent. I also disagree that becoming Muslim means that you've abandoned your country, quite the contrary actually. I believe that if a Muslim properly understands the Libertarian ideas within Islam it would make them stick up for the constitution more and thus become a better American.

Right! Sure. A better American like Jihad Jane. Or Azzam the American. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Yahiye_Gadahn for details.

Caution! Before any of you believe this man look up taqiyya (Arabic for deceit). The doctrine of deceit is part and parcel of Islam. Then decide if what our buddy here is saying is truthful.

Keep in mind that we Americans are part of the dar al harb which it is the mission of Islam to destroy or subjugate. When your enemy smiles at you, don't be so quick to be taken in. Think about it carefully. Have a look at this site for more details:

http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

Islam is Submission to the will of Allah. There is no liberty there. It is pure slavery of both the body and the soul.

Ba'al Chatzaf