The OL "tribe" and the Tribal Mindset

[Brant Gaede]

I think Jonathan is great. It's instructive watching someone attack an Objectivist fortress futilely seeking some rational digressions from bullheadedness with Phil as its Great Protector.

--Brant

[Philip Coates]

> Before complaining about what people have said on this thread regarding Lindsay Perigo, Phil should look up what Perigo said, repeatedly, gleefully, about Frank Zappa.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Robert.

Neither does 'I found a place where he did it first' make mean-spiritedness a virtue.

[9thdoctor]

I think it’s a good thing that Jonathan added a little bile to this discussion. Imagine if no one had said anything bad, how ronery that would have left Jabba feeling.

He’s using this to get attention, and this is the kind of attention he likes. Well, this and having his ass kissed by sycophants.

[Brant Gaede]

> Before complaining about what people have said on this thread regarding Lindsay Perigo, Phil should look up what Perigo said, repeatedly, gleefully, about Frank Zappa.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Robert.

Neither does 'I found a place where he did it first' make mean-spiritedness a virtue.

Not acknowledging your own wrong doesn't make it right either--to wit, implicitly sanctioning Perigo's true viciousness, said viciousness being Jonathan's context as he made crystal clear. If Jews danced in the streets when Hitler blew his brains out do we say it's unseemly and mean-spirited? Of course Perigo isn't a Hitler, nor is a mosquito an elephant.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Hoping Perigo suffers and dies is mean-spirited.

Blasting him for being a bigot and malicious jerk of a forum where people are normally critical of him is not, even if people are discussing his health problems. People here on OL are actually showing their good-spiritedness by rooting for him to get better.

Context matters in matters of the spirit.

Michael

[Jonathan]

> Before complaining about what people have said on this thread regarding Lindsay Perigo, Phil should look up what Perigo said, repeatedly, gleefully, about Frank Zappa.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Robert.

I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right. It is not a "wrong" for me to point out that Pigero is wrong to take pleasure in others' suffering, or to say that I hope his scare with cancer will have a positive effect on his life: that he'll pull his head out of his ass and become something that at least resembles a good human being.

Neither does 'I found a place where he did it first' make mean-spiritedness a virtue.

I haven't been "mean-spirited." I take no joy in Pigero's having cancer. I wish him the best in beating it. But I also hope that, in beating it and surviving it, he will learn something from it. I hope that he comes to realize exactly what a piece of shit he was for having expressed glee that others suffered and died from the same or other ailments. It doesn't make me happy to say it, but I think that he's a big enough piece of shit that he'll learn nothing, but will come away from it expressing even more glee at others' suffering.

J

[Rich Engle]

Perigo's comments about Frank Zappa. Oh, my. I wrote on that one. Talk about giving out tells. He literally has no idea, at all. I guess he listened to a few of Frank's novelty songs (you know, like "Don't Eat Yellow Snow"-type stuff, which is crafty and funny of its own) and had no freaking clue whatsoever of the full body of work. None. The work he did with hemiolas, or very nearly singly resurrecting the career of Varese, or "Orchestral Maneuvers," or, or, or all the musicians he spawned (Steve Vai, Ralph Armstrong, Adrian Belew, the Breckers, Ruth Underwood... the list is massive). Or being the developer of true "spontaneous composition" on the guitar, or, or...

He's a narrow-minded twit of a non-musician. The regional theater and opera circuits are teeming with these kinds of self-assumed bon vivants.

God, I hope not one person ever bought into nearly a thing he has ever said about music. His preferred list is fine, but you can only take so much Lanza. And what little he has ever said on jazz (has he even said anything about jazz?)? Oh, Lawd-My-Troubles it just goes on and on.

I wish he had left music alone--he poops all over plenty of other things.

rde

Edited November 28, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Robert Campbell]

> Before complaining about what people have said on this thread regarding Lindsay Perigo, Phil should look up what Perigo said, repeatedly, gleefully, about Frank Zappa.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Robert.

Neither does 'I found a place where he did it first' make mean-spiritedness a virtue.

Phil,

Having learned that Frank Zappa died a drawn-out, painful death from prostate cancer, Lindsay Perigo chortled over it. Repeatedly. Unrepentantly.

When I make a public call for Lindsay Perigo to die a drawn-out, painful death, then you can lecture me about mean-spriritedness.

Robert Campbell

[Jonathan]

He's a narrow-minded twit of a non-musician. The regional theater and opera circuits are teeming with these kinds of self-assumed bon vivants.

But let's not forget about his accomplishments as a consumer of music. Remember, he has taken some college-level courses in music, and he has read a few books on the subject. Also, as a television and radio personality, he has interviewed a few world-renowned professional singers and/or their surviving family members. And, perhaps most important of all, he has had very strong feelings about his opinions on music! Very, very strong feelings!

You have to admit that those are some serious achievements in music consumption. He may be one of the greatest music consumers the world has ever known!

J

[Brant Gaede]

He's a narrow-minded twit of a non-musician. The regional theater and opera circuits are teeming with these kinds of self-assumed bon vivants.

But let's not forget about his accomplishments as a consumer of music. Remember, he has taken some college-level courses in music, and he has read a few books on the subject. Also, as a television and radio personality, he has interviewed a few world-renowned professional singers and/or their surviving family members. And, perhaps most important of all, he has had very strong feelings about his opinions on music! Very, very strong feelings!

You have to admit that those are some serious achievements in music consumption. He may be one of the greatest music consumers the world has ever known!

My sarcasm filter just blew up.

--Brant

[Greybird]

[...] Context matters in matters of the spirit.

Yes, I'd agree. The context here, that of nearly the whole of this thread, is a core-dump of bile, revulsion, and character assassination. Whether these are being flung from Perigo and presumed associates toward OL members, or vice versa.

If you didn't want to place his particular suffering, as to something which was not his choice, into that particular context — thus fulfilling his cynical prediction — you would have started another thread, for discussion of this and for genuine commiseration. Instead of drenching such news in the acid of this one.

And that is all I can endure saying about it.

[Brant Gaede]

[...] Context matters in matters of the spirit.

Yes, I'd agree. The context here, that of nearly the whole of this thread, is a core-dump of bile, revulsion, and character assassination. Whether these are being flung from Perigo and presumed associates toward OL members, or vice versa.

If you didn't want to place his particular suffering, as to something which was not his choice, into that particular context — thus fulfilling his cynical prediction — you would have started another thread, for discussion of this and for genuine commiseration. Instead of drenching such news in the acid of this one.

And that is all I can endure saying about it.

The only reason you seem to come here any longer is to be revolted, comment on it and leave until next time. As usual, you overstate your case, even going so far as to condemn the thread in its entirety then getting somewhat more specific, but ignoring anything that contradicts your thesis.

This was a dead thread since Michael revived it with his post 661, so it doesn't really matter if he splits it off into a new one, even tossing it into the Garbage Pile, which would be my choice, though not for the usual reason.

--Brant

Edited November 30, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Steve (Greybird) has a context of the spirit, too.

Going from his posts, he apparently thinks that bitching about people doing things he doesn't understand or like--instead of producing something--somehow makes him a superior sort of fellow.

Unfortunately, I see this underachieving complainer attitude all too often in our subcommunity.

That's one of the reasons I never take him seriously, but go ahead and let him bitch. It literally doesn't mean anything.

btw - The reason for this thread is pretty obvious in the opening post. I generally add to the thread when something arises that ties into that theme. That way, I keep this stuff in one place and easier to find for people who are interested.

Michael

[william.scherk]

The context here, that of nearly the whole of this thread, is a core-dump of bile, revulsion, and character assassination.

Your cue for comment was MSK's post on Perigo's announcement of his prostate tumour. MSK wrote "I do hope his suffering ends soon and he is restored to health. I wish this for him as I wish it for any human being. I suspect many here on OL feel as I do." You could have hopped in right there, with a hearty hear hear.

What did you write, Greybird?

Nothing.

A few things bear remarking on the news -- some find telling that Perigo himself was pleased with the painful demise of Frank Zappa. We may wonder if the news and the eradication efforts will be accompanied by a new-found zeal for fairness, honesty and value-discernment in Perigo's opinion-making.

It looks like you only find one thing remarkable about the news and reaction: that some folks don't valourize Perigo.

So what? Why not comment on the news of the day, instead of only chastising? Surely an example of proper behaviour will do the same work as your usual vexed snipe.

Perigo starts his news by claiming his enemies (among whom you yourself) the Brandroids will be rejoicing. He is talking about you, Greybird, when he writes, "The good news for the aforementioned dregs is: I have cancer. The bad news is: it's eminently curable.."

He's talking about you. He is saying you will find good news in his cancer and bad news in its cure. Do you comment on this? Nope.

What is the value of your late intervention, then? You don't name anyone who did wrong, and you don't quote your findings of 'character assassination.'

It comes off as a pox on all who have commented on Perigo's illness and his behaviour, and a pox on all those who haven't.

I'll now be looking for some kind of 'best wishes' post to SOLO -- if you have anything positive to say. In any case, an atmosphere of bile, character assassination and revulsion seems to be a sort of background radiation to much Objectivish commentary.

If Perigo really believes that hearts are small and none here extend the basic decencies, what does that say about his sense of life?

[Brant Gaede]

Hey! I just noticed--post # 666 here is mine!

--Brant

the mark of the beast (maybe that's what got Steve going)

[Jonathan]

Yes, I'd agree. The context here, that of nearly the whole of this thread, is a core-dump of bile, revulsion, and character assassination.

Wrong. It's not "bile" or "character assassination" to call a hypocritical, self-important buffoon a hypocritical, self-important buffoon, especially when his first concern when told that he has cancer is to try to use it to lash out at the people he hates, and to use it to promote the myth of his heroic importance.

If you didn't want to place his particular suffering, as to something which was not his choice, into that particular context — thus fulfilling his cynical prediction...

Wrong again. Pigero had predicted that we would take his announcement that he had cancer as good news. We didn't. No one fulfilled his prediction.

Here's what the buffoon wrote:

The good news for the aforementioned dregs is: I have cancer.

The bad news is: it's eminently curable...

...And Brandroids, pomowankers, goblinites, lefties, headbangers and humanity-diminishers generally should know: I'll be going after you with ever greater urgency!!

The twit is so obsessed with vindictiveness that he uses his own scare with cancer as an opportunity to try to smear others -- to judge them as evil for making the type of judgments that he makes, despite the fact that they haven't made such judgments -- and Steve falls for it. Apparently in Steve's mind, it is "bile" and "character assassination" to respond to smears if they're made by someone who has cancer.

Anyway, as things stand, it sounds as if Pigero has already beaten the cancer. I hope that he'll be around for a long time. It's very entertaining watching him promote the idea of how important and effective his act of urgently "going after" his enemies is.

I think the essential thing to be taken away from Pigero's announcement is how significant our opinions of him are to him. If I were told tomorrow that I had cancer, it would never enter my mind to worry about what the people I've argued with online might think about it.

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Just to be clear, the theme of this thread is the tribal mindset, not Perigo's health.

Part of the tribal mindset is to divide humanity up into two camps. There are some variations, but they always fall into the big divide of Us against Them. When "Us" is down, this usually takes the form of the oppressed and the oppressors, with Them being the evil oppressors. When "Us" is up, it takes the form of vile scapegoating of the other side.

There is no room for the true independent individual.

When I read Perigo's notice, the first thing that jumped out at me--right from the headline--was the tribal mindset of Us against Them.

The trouble is, there actually is no "Them" as a group. And the only "Us" is Perigo and a few of his followers. Another trouble is that cancer is not a good excuse to use for expressing this. It sounds so petty. Another trouble is this crap is put forth as a tribute to Ayn Rand. And there are a few other troubles, but all indicative of the tribal mindset.

So I thought it deserved to be mentioned, seeing as how we were mentioned. Theme-wise, this thread was perfect for it.

If there were no such signs, I would not have made my views public. I can wish that Perigo be restored to health in the privacy of my own soul. (That, btw, is the root of integrity--when you do something good when no one is looking, just because you want to.) I don't need to put this forum at the service of commiserating with Perigo, if that is the only purpose. Perigo has not earned that. On the contrary, he has earned disrespect and contempt.

Now, as to Steve (and Phil, for that matter).

Because of WSS's post, I realized that Steve was feeling so sorry for himself that he did not offer any well-wishes to Perigo, even as he admonished others for doing this within the context of contention.

I understand his self-pity, too.

I believe it is one of the traps within Objectivism. Rand did a hell of a good job blasting her enemies, so much so that, if you adopt the negative part of her mindset, it is easy to adopt her enemies as your own and to scapegoat them, not just blast them. It is easy to fall into an Us against Them mindset--but always reminding anyone who will listen that "Us" is not a really a collective, but a group of individuals (and reminding them at little too intensely over and over).

In other words, it is easy to fall into a tribal mindset.

Now, you know you are not stupid. You see things, even if you don't want to. So what happens when you stop liking the tribe around you?

That does happen. When you start looking around, you can't help but notice that what should be an Objectivist Shangri La is actually nothing more than a bunch of people snarling at each other--at least that's about all you see in the subculture from that viewpoint once the bitterness starts eating at you. And you blame anyone who gets involved in anything hostile--it doesn't matter whose side they are on or what the issues are.

The feeling is, "You guys are screwing up my shot at paradise! And you are screwing it up for everybody else, too! Stop it!"

You don't devote yourself to any major inspiring achievements of your own because you are too bitter to summon the energy. You do a few things, but your heart isn't fully in the effort.

I know that feeling because I was there once--minus the subculture.

I think this describes Steve and Phil from what I have read of their posts.

But don't think I am saying this just because I want to point the finger at them and make some kind of denouncement. I don't.

And don't think I don't have a solution. I do--at least I have one that worked for me. Otherwise, what's the point of going into this stuff on this thread?

On one of the worst days of my life as a drug addict in a flea-bag hotel in São Paulo, Brazil, I made one of the best decisions of my life. We only get to make 3 or 4 such decisions within a lifetime, and this was one of mine.

I decided that if I wanted to change the world, I had to start by changing myself and stop blaming others. The only way to change others was to start with myself.

I wish I could say I made this decision because of a noble soul and whatnot, but it was more reactive than that. It was out of the pain of apathy. (Apathy only hurts when you want something. That's a quip,. but it's so, so true.) I was sick and tired of not caring and watching the days pass as my life went nowhere. I was literally bored with living and (thankfully) uncomfortable with the idea of dying. The words from the song, "Old Man River" kept haunting me: "Tired of livin', but feared of dyin'."

Sure, other people screw up. I still knew that. But I was sick of them screwing up my life. Or better, I was sick of letting them. I decided to do something about it. Not against them, mind you. Instead, I wanted to do something that was only by me and for me. I wanted to want badly again. Want something without a scapegoat attached. Anything at all.

But when I looked, I wasn't in proper condition to do very much. Nothing, really. I was half-dead. So I shut up on blaming others and got to work.

Well, it's been a long haul since then. There's been a lot of hardship, apathy relapses, confusions, false starts, discouragement, getting really hurt and God knows what. But that was the best decision I ever made.

I'm alive and I feel it. By God, I'm alive!

And I'm doing something.

Am I where I want to get to?

No. Obviously not.

But I am well on the way--without a shred of doubt that I am going to get there. Hell, the hard part is over.

For people who recently got perplexed at my fascination with Glenn Beck, the message of changing yourself for the better in order to change the world for the better is precisely his message. This resonates so deeply within me that it cuts to my core.

I understand this principle to be individualism at its finest.

I highly recommend it for anyone who is suffering like I was. And like Steve and Phil are.

And I recommend it for them.

It works. It pulls you out of the bitterness. It is the opposite of the tribal mindset and it is worth every bit of the pain you go through when you implement it from a dark place.

Michael

[Selene]

A lot of wisdom in that post Michael.

Thanks

Adam

[Starbuckle]

"Now, as to Steve (and Phil, for that matter). Because of WSS's post, I realized that Steve was feeling so sorry for himself that he did not offer any well-wishes to Perigo, even as he admonished others for doing this within the context of contention. I understand his self-pity, too. I believe it is one of the traps within Objectivism. [etc.]"

Steve being Graybird, who said he didn't like the tenor of this thread? If you must disagree, isn't it possible to do so on point, without being a condescending blowhard?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Steve being Graybird, who said he didn't like the tenor of this thread? If you must disagree, isn't it possible to do so on point, without being a condescending blowhard?

<br>Starbuckle,<br><br>No.<br><br>If people talk about me, I'll talk about them.<br><br>And I suggest you learn how to spell Greybird, but you decide.<br><br>Michael<br><br><br>EDIT: I got to thinking, since you decided to step up, I have a question. What do you mean by "condescending blowhard"? I am truly interested in your standards.<br>

[PDS]

A lot of wisdom in that post Michael.

Thanks

Adam

Agreed.

[9thdoctor]

Just to be clear, the theme of this thread is the tribal mindset, not Perigo's health.

Nevertheless, it seems as good a place as any to report on Valliant's heart attack.

http://www.solopassion.com/node/8218

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dennis,

Those people can't even get sick, or say one of them is sick, without saying something bad about the Brandens.

Did you read Fahy's thing? His friend almost died. Yet most of his letter was bashing the Brandens instead of talking about Valliant.

What spiritually disturbed, repugnant people.

As to Valliant, I have very little to say.

I hope he gets better. There. That's something.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Dennis,

Those people can't even get sick, or say one of them is sick, without saying something bad about the Brandens.

Did you read Fahy's thing? His friend almost died. Yet most of his letter was bashing the Brandens instead of talking about Valliant.

What spiritually disturbed, repugnant people.

As to Valliant, I have very little to say.

I hope he gets better. There. That's something.

Michael

If you have a heart attack and are unconscious on arrival at the hospital you have about a 95% chance of death or permanent brain damage.

Keep coughing

--Brant

why does Ellen love James?

Edited December 22, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[9thdoctor]

Those people can't even get sick, or say one of them is sick, without saying something bad about the Brandens.

Did you read Fahy's thing? His friend almost died. Yet most of his letter was bashing the Brandens instead of talking about Valliant.

Yup. There’s not much to say about it. Maybe JV will come out with the results of his mind-meld with God, and we'll finally learn who really committed the OJ murders: TheBrandens!!! (no offense, JNS)