Ahmadinejad (Done Speaking.)

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just checked out who Philip Giraldi is. A former CIA officer.

I don't know if he participated in the government's constant projections of events, but this kind of thing goes on all the time in the military at a high level. I wish a contrasting scenario had been presented (this is useful in highlighting intensity range of conflicts), but I wouldn't expect that on antiwar.com.

I skimmed over Giraldi's scenario and it was simply too speculative for me. Lot's of really iffy ifs.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

For anyone who thinks that Iran is such a horrible nation that attacking it is a good idea, here is a projected scenario for just what the likely consequences of such an attack might be. The article is entitled, "What World War III May Look Like".

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/giraldi.php?articleid=11666

Martin

Very frighting scenario. May reason save us.

The correct response to this scenario is genocide. If the Chinese are foolish enough to join in the struggle they can die too. No containment. Total destruction.

By the way, there is no neutron bomb. Jimmy Carter halted research to construct a neutron bomb and it has not resumed. Our bombs are live and dirty. They destroy people and property with equal neturality.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

For anyone who thinks that Iran is such a horrible nation that attacking it is a good idea, here is a projected scenario for just what the likely consequences of such an attack might be. The article is entitled, "What World War III May Look Like".

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/giraldi.php?articleid=11666

Martin

Very frighting scenario. May reason save us.

Nothing realistic about the scenario. Iran could not effectively engage U.S. forces on a large scale unless they occupied Iran, if then. The idea that the Eisenhower would be severely damaged and run aground is a hoot. Bush isn't going to rally the country for anything anyway. I don't think most people begin to understand how overwhelmingly powerful the U.S. is in the Middle East. It has only used a fraction of that power, but it's there. Israel is no slouch either. And this doesn't count any use of nuclear weapons.

--Brant

Edited September 26, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Aggrad02]

Nothing realistic about the scenario.

--Brant

I seriously hope so. I actually seriously hope we don't have to find out.

--Dustan

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The correct response to this scenario is genocide.

Bob,

Heh.

So if the Jews cut up, we can bomb them off the face of the earth. Right, Bob?

Be real careful with embracing evil. It can come back to haunt you.

Genocide is evil. Bigotry is evil.

Michael

[Martin Radwin]

For anyone who thinks that Iran is such a horrible nation that attacking it is a good idea, here is a projected scenario for just what the likely consequences of such an attack might be. The article is entitled, "What World War III May Look Like".

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/giraldi.php?articleid=11666

Martin

Very frighting scenario. May reason save us.

The correct response to this scenario is genocide. If the Chinese are foolish enough to join in the struggle they can die too. No containment. Total destruction.

By the way, there is no neutron bomb. Jimmy Carter halted research to construct a neutron bomb and it has not resumed. Our bombs are live and dirty. They destroy people and property with equal neturality.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You are living proof that it is possible for a person to be highly intelligent in the fields of math and physics and yet in other respects be a complete lunatic.

Martin

[BaalChatzaf]

You are living proof that it is possible for a person to be highly intelligent in the fields of math and physics and yet in other respects be a complete lunatic.

Martin

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[tjohnson]

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Unfortunately, violence breeds violence.

[BaalChatzaf]

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Unfortunately, violence breeds violence.

The last one standing is the winner.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Please, gentlemen, let's raise the standard of discussion again.

Here is an editorial on Ahmadinejad's speech.

SQUALID MISTAKE: ACADEMIA'S UGLY BLINDNESS

By ARTHUR HERMAN

September 25, 2007

New York Post

From the editorial:

The left in this country concluded long ago that this is not a war between Islamic extremist fascism and Western civilization, but a fight between Islamic "militants" and President Bush. The events of 9/11 never changed the left/liberal view that the real menace to world peace is the Bush administration and what Sen. J. William Fulbright used to call "the arrogance of American power" - much as British leftists in the early '30s assumed that the real cause of war wasn't men like Hitler or Mussolini, but capitalism and arms merchants.

One of the signs outside yesterday's events summed this view up nicely: "We refuse to choose between Islamic fundamentalism and American imperialism."

In short, too many men and women at Columbia (and on other U.S. campuses) see the War on Terror as something that they are free to judge and criticize as if it doesn't involve them.

Just as President Bush has the right to make his case, so the reasoning goes (yet when was the last time an administration official was given a major public forum at Columbia?), fairness demands that Ahmadinejad have the same right.

The left assumes this neutral posture puts them in the middle and keeps them safe. In fact, it leaves them nowhere.

Terrorism involves all of us. The USA gained nothing with Columbia University offering a public platform to Ahmadinejad on American soil (well... Bollinger gained something to brag about in the club room), but Ahmadinejad gained a real PR victory.

If anybody wants to see this guy up close, here is the full 60 Minutes interview with him (on video and transcript) conducted by Scott Pelley on September 23: Ahmadinejad: Iran Not Walking Toward War.

I saw that interview and felt very sad. It was clear to me that Ahmadinejad is a sincere Muslim and believes he is doing what is "the good" as he understands it, but in a typical politician fashion. One part is actual concern for humanity (and he made some very interesting and true observations), but the other is as cunning as a fox and as ruthless as a rattle snake. I have seen this same kind of thing up close in some hardline old-school military Brazilian politicians. The bottom line is, as Rand states it, that he feels that his end justifies your means (or the means of anybody, and that includes atrocities if required for his end).

Ahmadinejad did not say what the real game was, but it was clear to me. Bush is making some very real war noises and Ahmadinejad is trying to buy time for the election to come, hopefully for him with a Democratic President, and for Iran to finish constructing its nuclear arsenal in the meantime. (On this, I think he is making a huge mistake. For as much as I don't like the Democrats, I have no doubt that when push comes to shove, they will be ruthless to Iran in war should Iran nuke Israel or something like that.)

I fear many Americans will make too much out of Ahmadinejad's "dancing around" answers to some of the direct questions. I believe part of that was purposeful evasion when it involved political repercussions for him at home, but mostly I perceived cultural responses steeped in religious-type discourse. The flowery language of religious Muslims leads them never to answer just yes or no. There is always some kind of hidden lesson to be discerned. On the other hand, I think Ahmadinejad outright lied when he wanted to and I think he wanted to several times.

Michael

[Aggrad02]

. The flowery language of religious Muslims leads them never to answer just yes or no. There is always some kind of hidden lesson to be discerned. On the other hand, I think Ahmadinejad outright lied when he wanted to and I think he wanted to several times.

Michael

Michael, I agree with you about the language, but I do not feel that it is due to "the flowery language of religous [islam]" but due to their culture regardless of religion. I may be stereotyping here but many of the people in that part of the world (From Turkey through Iran to India) have such mannerism in their language, hardly ever are they direct when speaking but they dance. In my business all of my suppliers, most of my competitors and some good friends that I have met have been either from Pakistan, Turkey, or India, and it has been hard to learn to take what they say and figure out what they really mean.

For instance, when my supplier says that he will be getting a certain product in next week that I need, this can mean one of several things: 1) He really is getting it in next week, 2) He has no idea if he can get it or not, but is going to try and find out and if he can get it, it might be next week it might be next month 3) he knows for sure that he can get it but he has no idea when or 4) He can't get it and probably won't, but won't tell me this just in case he eventually does.

Another interesting story is when a friend of mine Manish and I opened up our first business together. We went to our supplier (for the first time) and spent about 4 hours picking out goods to sell. It takes the staff there about an additional 45 minutes to count and package everything up. Then we go and stick with the owner to settle the invoice. Manu had told me to let him talk and he would handle the buying. He spent about 30 minutes haggling with the owner over pennies here and there. In the end we got about $40 off a $4,000 bill. Then Manu told him we needed 30 days credit on about $2500 of the bill and that we would leave him a check to deposit in 30 days. This was a man who we just met for the first time and to who Manish never told his real name too. After another 20 minutes of arguing over this, Manu told me we were not going to buy and that we were going to leave. The owner said fine and as we were almost to our cars in the parking lot, he came out and called us back in and eventually gave us the credit. Now listen to this, we didn't even need the credit, we had enough money to pay him, when I asked Manish about this he said "as long as we owe him money he will never try and cheat us in the future, it is like insurance". The whole business experience was extremely different from anything I had ever experienced before.

Back to Ahmadinejad, I don't think he is evil (other than being collectivist and religious, but that would include most of the world), nor do I think he is antisemitic. I think he is sincere in wanting peaceful resolutions (who doesn't want peace if they can get it). But I do think that they are trying to build a bomb. It is something about the way they talk about it, that is similar to the way my "desi" friends talk that leads me to believe that they are going after the bomb. But I also don't think they would use it against Israel for many reasons.

--Dustan

[Martin Radwin]

You are living proof that it is possible for a person to be highly intelligent in the fields of math and physics and yet in other respects be a complete lunatic.

Martin

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The Iraqi government was not responsible for 9/11. Neither was the Iranian government. Neither was the Chinese government. And even more so, the people of Iraq, Iran, and China were not responsible. So perhaps you should think twice before deciding that they are your enemies and should be exterminated like so many insects.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of the US invasion. These Iraqis were not guilty of anything other than living in a country ruled by a dictator that the US government didn't like, a dictator who the US government had previously supported. Since the US invasion, relative to its population, Iraq has experienced the equivalent of about one 9/11 attack every day.

Since the 9/11 attack has by your own admission turned you into someone utterly bloodthirsty and seeking the complete and utter destruction of your enemies, which apparently include people who are not actually your enemies at all, how many Iraqis who have lived through the equivalent of one 9/11 attack every day for the last four years may have been turned into bloodthirsty monsters intent on the complete and utter destruction of the American enemies who did this to them?

Martin

[Brant Gaede]

You are living proof that it is possible for a person to be highly intelligent in the fields of math and physics and yet in other respects be a complete lunatic.

Martin

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The Iraqi government was not responsible for 9/11. Neither was the Iranian government. Neither was the Chinese government. And even more so, the people of Iraq, Iran, and China were not responsible. So perhaps you should think twice before deciding that they are your enemies and should be exterminated like so many insects.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of the US invasion. These Iraqis were not guilty of anything other than living in a country ruled by a dictator that the US government didn't like, a dictator who the US government had previously supported. Since the US invasion, relative to its population, Iraq has experienced the equivalent of about one 9/11 attack every day.

Since the 9/11 attack has by your own admission turned you into someone utterly bloodthirsty and seeking the complete and utter destruction of your enemies, which apparently include people who are not actually your enemies at all, how many Iraqis who have lived through the equivalent of one 9/11 attack every day for the last four years may have been turned into bloodthirsty monsters intent on the complete and utter destruction of the American enemies who did this to them?

Martin

Twice? I don't think Bob's really thought once about this. Nevertheless, he's no monster, it's all intellectualization. Not surprising in a scientific mind, not to me. I've actually seen war and hundreds of dead bodies. I can't take him seriously; if I did it would be him or me on OL. Note that he really presents no arguments. He just keeps repeating himself. Asseverations. There's simply no muscle behind his "genocide." It's completely phoney.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Twice? I don't think Bob's really thought once about this. Nevertheless, he's no monster, it's all intellectualization. Not surprising in a scientific mind, not to me. I've actually seen war and hundreds of dead bodies. I can't take him seriously; if I did it would be him or me on OL. Note that he really presents no arguments. He just keeps repeating himself. Asseverations. There's simply no muscle behind his "genocide." It's completely phoney.

--Brant

I have seen and washed dozens of dead bodies. When I was more observant I worked for the Chavurah Kaedsha, the Jewish Burial Society. We wash'em, shroud'em and box'em for burial within twenty four hours. I have handled the stiffs. Have YOU?

I am also a homicide (it were accidental and non-criminal). How many people have YOU killed directly?

In addition I have worked on the design of nuclear weapons and terrain guidance systems that bring cruise missiles to their targets. This was all pre-GPS stuff. Now GPS does the job. I have a few thousand enemy scalps on my belt.

When I was a kid, I wanted to drop bombs on Germans like my Uncle Phil, but the war ended in 1945. Uncle Phil was Adolph Hitler's worst nightmare -- a Jew with a Norden Bombsight and I wanted to do that very much. When I was older I attempted to enlist (three times) in the military. I was rejected thrice, because of asthma. I did so want to be warrior, which I consider to be the greatest thing a man can be. Having been thwarted in that end, I settled for being a toolsmith for the warriors. If I could not throw a spear, at least I could make a better spear for the warriors to throw. I am out of that business now and I do more peaceful things. But in my heart I still long to be a warrior. Maybe in my next life.

How many scalps do YOU have on your belt?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited September 27, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dustan,

I will try to find some stuff on Ahmadinejad and his personal views about antisemitism, which I am almost positive can be found despite his careful public statements. Anyone who would sponsor an international Holocaust-denial conference is insulting every Jew to his/her face. This is from the same mentality that staged violent demonstrations over cartoon depictions of Mohammad because that offended sensibilities.

The following documentary (free on Google video) is not about Iran and is from a while back, but it will give you some kind of notion about what is permeated in the media in Islamic countries about Jews.

Blaming the Jews

Produced and directed by Nick Hayes

Written and presented by David Aaronovitch

Channel 4 (England)

It is inconceivable to me that Ahmadinejad does not know about these things and even agree with them. (Incidentally, I have seen a lot of videos recently and some Arabs are getting really pissed that he is getting involved in the Palestinian issue. Shi'a and Salafi do not mix well.)

btw - I have examined quite a lot of stuff. I am only going to give you links where there is little or no propaganda present (from the reporter's perspective, not as regards what he is reporting on). This criterion cuts out the vast majority of what I am looking at. (God, do these people hate on both sides! Spiteful rhetoric is as thick as flies on crap.)

In the above documentary, the reporter went out on a look-see mission, not a mission to debunk Islam. What he saw in terms of antisemitism wasn't pretty, though. Especially the stuff on TV.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dustan,

Will you look at this You Tube video?

Ahmadinejad embraces Jews

Dayaamm!

I have a feeling that Jews Against Zionism is not held in great esteem by other Jews.

Michael

[Aggrad02]

btw - I have examined quite a lot of stuff. I am only going to give you links where there is little or no propaganda present (from the reporter's perspective, not as regards what he is reporting on). This criterion cuts out the vast majority of what I am looking at. (God, do these people hate on both sides! Spiteful rhetoric is as thick as flies on crap.)

Michael

Yes Michael this makes finding any information very difficult. Even when presented with information that maybe correct most times the tone that it is presented really questions the authenticity. (This is from both sides)

--Dustan

[Brant Gaede]

Twice? I don't think Bob's really thought once about this. Nevertheless, he's no monster, it's all intellectualization. Not surprising in a scientific mind, not to me. I've actually seen war and hundreds of dead bodies. I can't take him seriously; if I did it would be him or me on OL. Note that he really presents no arguments. He just keeps repeating himself. Asseverations. There's simply no muscle behind his "genocide." It's completely phoney.

--Brant

I have seen and washed dozens of dead bodies. When I was more observant I worked for the Chavurah Kaedsha, the Jewish Burial Society. We wash'em, shroud'em and box'em for burial within twenty four hours. I have handled the stiffs. Have YOU?

I am also a homicide (it were accidental and non-criminal). How many people have YOU killed directly?

In addition I have worked on the design of nuclear weapons and terrain guidance systems that bring cruise missiles to their targets. This was all pre-GPS stuff. Now GPS does the job. I have a few thousand enemy scalps on my belt.

When I was a kid, I wanted to drop bombs on Germans like my Uncle Phil, but the war ended in 1945. Uncle Phil was Adolph Hitler's worst nightmare -- a Jew with a Norden Bombsight and I wanted to do that very much. When I was older I attempted to enlist (three times) in the military. I was rejected thrice, because of asthma. I did so want to be warrior, which I consider to be the greatest thing a man can be. Having been thwarted in that end, I settled for being a toolsmith for the warriors. If I could not throw a spear, at least I could make a better spear for the warriors to throw. I am out of that business now and I do more peaceful things. But in my heart I still long to be a warrior. Maybe in my next life.

How many scalps do YOU have on your belt?

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'd apologize Ba'al, except you didn't answer the core of my criticism, so I still can't think of you as a genocidalist. I don't know how many enemy soldiers I killed. One right in front of me. I may have even killed a South Vietnamese soldier by "friendly fire." Unlikely, but possibly. In the context of WWII, I could have been a crew member on the Hiroshima bomber, not because I would have wanted to kill Japanese but to help end the war as quickly as possible. I made the conscious decision after I joined the army that if there was going to be any combat I wasn't going to be in the rear. I had and still have a blood-thirst for Stalinist communists and Muslims who live by the sword. I don't need the police to protect me. Most people think police protect them. They are fools; police are mostly reactive. The general protection they give is as part of the criminal justice system. If the bad guys are in jail I don't have to shoot them when they break into my home.

--Brant

[tjohnson]

I have been crazy since 08:46 AM of September 11, 2001. Prior to that I was not bloodthirsty (well, not too bloodthirsty). Now I want complete and utter destruction of my enemies and God Damn the collateral damage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

And what about your grandchildren, what if they become "collateral damage"? Will you still think war is the answer?

[BaalChatzaf]

And what about your grandchildren, what if they become "collateral damage"? Will you still think war is the answer?

As long as we win. Collateral damage is one of the infelicities of modern war and it happens on both sides. The last one standing is the winner.

War does work. War ended Japan's imperial inclinations and Germany has been well behaved for over 60 years. Apparently, wars sometimes work.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[tjohnson]

As long as we win. Collateral damage is one of the infelicities of modern war and it happens on both sides. The last one standing is the winner.

War does work. War ended Japan's imperial inclinations and Germany has been well behaved for over 60 years. Apparently, wars sometimes work.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Hard to say, we never tried anything else.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

OK. We know killing works for making people dead. And dead people are no threat. We got it.

Can we move on?

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

OK. We know killing works for making people dead. And dead people are no threat. We got it.

Can we move on?

Michael

By all means.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Dayaamm! That was too easy!

Don't you have a few others you want to kill first?

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dustan,

Last night I spent the good part looking at online video resources for antisemitism in Islamic countries and I came away depressed as all get out. Despite all the rhetoric and pure spiteful hatred on both sides that is prevalent, the antisemitism situation in Islamic Middle East countries is horrible. Just horrible. (And the anti-Muslim racism by many Jews I read certainly doesn't help understanding for outsiders. I came across more than one outsider saying the equivalent of, "You folks are all crazy, every last one of you." That's close to how I felt after looking at this. I am not allowing myself to go there, but it sure is a temptation.)

There are two more-or-less objective sources I want to mention right now—the first giving some historical information on the Nazi connection and the second with respect to Ahmadinejad and some of the Jewish support we are seeing for him, but it mainly concerns Hitler.

Here is the first. I saw a documentary a while back on the Nazi roots of Saddam Hussein and the Baath party. It is called Saddam and the Third Reich and was made for The History Channel. Unfortunately the link I just provided gets you a teaser sample, not the whole documentary. However the blurb is worth repeating here:

Few people realize that the Baath party was actually formed upon the principles and organizational structure of the Nazi party.

Iraq, because of its oil and hatred of Jews, was an important battleground between the Axis and Allied powers in World War II.

Nazi propaganda was broadcast throughout Baghdad, and Iraqis often went on rampages against Jews throughout the war.

One of the most ardent Nazi supporters during WWII was named Khairallah Talfah. Talfah was Saddam's uncle.

After the war, many of the key Iraqi Nazi supporters, all of whom evaded prosecution, wound up involved in Saddam's rise to power.

This special examines the key individuals of the Iraqi-Nazi connection, the little-known battle for Iraq in WWII, and the strange link to Saddam Hussein.

Now this is interesting in itself, but there is a section on You Tube from this film (about 7 minutes) that deals specifically with The Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his involvement with the Nazi government.: Adolph Hitler Meets with Arab Muslim Grand Mufti Amin Al Hus

Amin al-Husseini was probably the grandfather of modern fanatical Islamism. (It would be interesting later to see if he ever had a connection with or influence on Sayyid Qutb.) After the Nazis fell, he stayed on in the Muslim world in important places organizing and organizing. All his efforts had antisemitism as a base. There are literally oodles and oodles of antisemitic intellectual garbage left over from him in all kinds of places in the Muslim world.

The most ironic part of the video excerpt is that Amin al-Husseini could not fully enjoy his Nazi privileges until a Nazi physician declared him to be an Anglo Saxon. Until then, he was deemed to be of an inferior race and this was problematic for the Nazis. In other words, he sold out his own heritage (and, essentially, his followers) because of his hatred of Jews.

Here is a highly informative site on him and includes online books provided by Simon Wiesenthal: Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

(There are several spellings for our dear Grand Mufti.) There is a video on that site from a German TV show about him (with English subtitles) containing old footage. Ahmadinejad even makes an appearance in that video. I found that site really interesting so far.

This Nazi connection is as good a starting point as any for untangling this mess to try to understand it. At least the Nazis are close enough in history where we can still see cause and effect.

I will do the next set of videos on Hitler and fringe Jewish supporters of Ahmadinejad in the next post to keep this bite-sized.

Michael