[Added by WSS, August 18 2018: old placeholder thread, updated with a puzzler snatched from the front pages of OL. It's a neat little attribution discussion, with sides of psychology and morality ... I may not get around to answering myself for a bit, but thought to dust this old entry off, give it some glitz, and apply twenty-first century cogitation tech. ]
Argument Clinic May 12 and 13
-- thanks to the tipster who saw this entrained convo begin to derail.
I'd like to think that I can with help rationally analyze the apparent impasse, and then put Reason to further work in solving the apparent misunderstanding. Something in this exchange suggests a pattern in disagreement in the Endless Love thread on the front porch.
(what I like about this blog is that it is visible only to Objectivist Living members. It would be an in-house solution if we could get MSK and PDS to a mutual comprehension, mutual understanding. It would go a long way toward restoring mutual-respect. Michael is fighting every step of the way over process/truncquotes -- without pausing to give PDS a good 'hearing.' It may be a function of being 3 things at once: Forum Leader, Forum Owner, Trump Campaigner. How can one stump for a candidate without setting aside The Principle of Charity or other rational aids? It seems to me almost impossible. So the challenge is to bring PDS and MSK to a common ground, however small.
I call this for clinical sake "The Danger in asking for Specifics: the specifics ... " because the dispute circles around the propriety of asking for specific things
On 5/11/2016 at 2:46 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:On 5/11/2016 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan said:
My view is that Drumpf is moving closer to my (our?) beliefs, where Ryan is moving farther from them
I have held this belief from the beginning with one nuance. I think Drumpf has been far closer to our beliefs since the beginning than many who proclaim to be.
Especially Paul Ryan, who, in political practice, is a pragmatist, not a man of principled vision. He says he is, but his acts don't align to his words. He works as a decent copywriter for his principles, I suppose, but he sure as hell doesn't live them.
Drumpf, on the contrary, has left a physical trail of his productive vision all over the world. If he had a slightly different personality (on a lower fundamental level, i.e. less bragging, less bickering and more polite, essentially), I have no doubt many people in our subcommunity would say Ayn Rand anticipated him in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.
On 5/12/2016 at 8:17 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:On 5/12/2016 at 6:55 AM, PDS said:
Is there anything that Ryan has specifically done that leads you to say that he is not a man of principled vision?
You mean like his efforts to pass last year's budget?
Yeah, he rationalized it (something to the effect that we had to get that nastiness and further budget bloating out of the way by capitulating to be able to concentrate on the glorious small government future), but rationalizing his principles when the going gets tough seems to be his standard MO.
On 5/12/2016 at 10:22 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:On 5/12/2016 at 9:49 AM, PDS said:
Okay. Can you name something specific you object to about last year's budget?
Come on. That's the way you want to argue this?
A: Tell me something about X that proves your point, I dare you. You can't can you? See? You can't...
B: Blah blah blah...
A: Oh... OK, well tell me another. You can't can you?
I'm not biting.
Also, I'm going to seriously regret this, but I will not wager on what Drumpf will do. This would be the easiest money I ever made in my life, but I don't gamble on the principle of keeping myself alive as long as my natural days allow. (I've been a serious drug and alcohol addict, remember? )
Let's just say Drumpf is being hired to do a job (several, actually, but let's lump them all under the singular). If he doesn't do that job, or if he doesn't get reasonably close to getting it done with some serious-ass reasons why he didn't complete it, I am going to be pissed as hell at him--like millions and millions of others. And, if he fails at his job, at such time I will take whatever means I can to remove him and get someone else who can do the job.
So I'm not going to waste my time--after doing this thread of over 6,000 posts and a lot of writing at other places, trying to convince anyone that I really believe Drumpf will do what he says. I believe it.
Besides, I'm extremely time-constrained at the moment (good things are happening to me in other areas of my life, but they are time-consuming to get right) and I have not yet answered Robert Campbell and some friendly passive/aggressive
gossipshit William is trying to stir up backstage.
Life is short, but this stuff can get awfully long...
And then there's this:
Drumpf is winning...
[Added by WSS: From a live re-performance recording of the Monty Python classic. ]