Wagons Being Circled

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ms. Stuttle imagines that Ayn Rand wouldn't have made up a certain story, ergo it must be true that Rand didn't make up that story.

C'mon, that's really ridiculous. So you think AR would have coincidentally made up a story about getting the name from the typewriter at a time when there was no such typewriter? She just happened to invent exactly the story Fern told about the timing? Mighty implausible, I think.

Ellen

[Neil Parille]

Ellen,

C'mon, that's really ridiculous. So you think AR would have coincidentally made up a story about getting the name from the typewriter at a time when there was no such typewriter? She just happened to invent exactly the story Fern told about the timing? Mighty implausible, I think.

No, by the time Rand recounted the story (she last met Fern in the 30s, if I recall Heller's bio accurately) the RR typewriter had been around for a while.

By the time she told it to the Brandens she probably forgot the kind of typewriter she brought to the US and theBrandens wouldn't have known that there weren't RR typewriters in 1926.

Did Rand have any idea when RR typewriters were first made?

As I said above, perhaps the most likely explanation is Rand saying something to the effect that "I liked typing so much when I came to the US that I might as well have taken my last name from a Remington Rand typewriter."

-Neil Parille

Edited September 19, 2010 by Neil Parille

[Robert Campbell]

However, you're presuming, are you not, that they should have figured out what might go wrong with it? If they thought it was fine for NB to be Barbara's therapist concerning her romantic problems with him, why would they think it wrong for AR to help Nathaniel…

Yes, they all should have been able to figure it out.

As the leader, the presumed moral authority, and the one the others looked up to, Ayn Rand ought to have been the first to realize it.

Ms. Stuttle sometimes uses the pronoun "they," applied to Rand's circle, as though it includes Ayn Rand.

On other occasions, she pretends that the same pronoun "they," applied to the same group of people, does not include Rand.

Such linguistic trickery—or fumbling, whichever it is— is not particularly interesting.

Robert Campbell

[kiaer.ts]

Ellen, this is from Fitts "review" of PARC written this year. Do you think it needs correction, or not?

To get an idea of what I mean, let's consider some of the things Valliant proves in PARC:

http://inductiveques...w-of-james.html

(1) The origin of Rand's American name. Both Nathaniel and Barbara Branden claim that Rand (originally Alice/Alyssa Rosenbaum) changed her name to that of her Remington-Rand typewriter which she brought with her from Russia, with Rand's cousin Fern Brown as Barbara's source. Barbara even claims that Rand never told her family her new name, suggesting a kind of callousness and betrayal of a family who had cared for her enough to help her get out of Russia—fitting perfectly with their portrayal of Rand as manipulative. But these are all lies. As Valliant demonstrates, the Rand Kardex company didn't merge with the Remington company (i.e. the one which manufactured typewriters of the two) until 1927, a year after Rand arrived in America with her typewriter; in fact, Remington-Rand typewriters weren't even made in the 1920's, according to the Remington-Rand company itself. In a letter to a fan, Rand states that her first name is an American version of a Finnish name, and in a New York Evening Post interview she states that her last name is an abbreviation of her Russian surname. (Evidence of this is provided at the ARI site.) In any event, there's no proof that she took her name from a typewriter that didn't even exist at the time she had actually invented the name "Ayn Rand," (sometime around 1925), besides the claims of the Brandens. Furthermore, there are letters from Rand's family in 1926 that explicitly call her "Rand," which were sent beforeshe communicated with them in America, meaning she told them her new name before leaving, contrary to Barbara's claims. A small point, but that the Brandens felt the need to lie about this, and to even suggest that Rand was unfair to her family and left them in the dark about her life in America, is unforgivable and revolting. (PARC, p. 12-14; "How do you pronounce "Ayn?" and "What is the origin of "Rand?"; the "Objectivism Reference Center" speculates that Rand herself may have spread the story of the typewriter, if N. Branden's story is correct. His dishonesty generally, and her accounts of her name being an abbreviation of her Russian name to both theEvening Post and The Saturday Evening Post, however, suggest another instance of Branden simply lying.) [Emph. added.]

Edited September 19, 2010 by Ted Keer

[Robert Campbell]

So you think AR would have coincidentally made up a story about getting the name from the typewriter at a time when there was no such typewriter? She just happened to invent exactly the story Fern told about the timing? Mighty implausible, I think.

Ms. Stuttle is becoming desperate.

Did Ayn Rand actually know when the Remington-Rand typewriter was first sold?

If Ayn Rand did know, did she have any reason to believe that her audience (relatives, disciples) would know?

Robert Campbell

[Neil Parille]

On page 332-33 of ARWSM Heller writes that Rand spoke in Chicago in 1963 and that Fern Brown was in attendance.

That Rand told Brown and the Brandens that she took her name from a RR typewriter and that Brown retrojected it into her childhood memories has its problems, but it is not logically impossible. Nor is there any reason to think at the time she told it (if she did) that her hearers would have known it couldn't be true.

-Neil Parille

Edited September 19, 2010 by Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

By the time [AR] told it to the Brandens she probably forgot the kind of typewriter she brought to the US and theBrandens wouldn't have known that there weren't RR typewriters in 1926.

Did Rand have any idea when RR typewriters were first made?

I have no idea if she knew when RR typewriters were first made. But I don't find plausible that she'd have forgotten what kind of typewriter she brought to the US (if indeed she did bring a typewriter -- I think there's been some question about that). And I don't find plausible that she said she adopted the name from a Remington-Rand typewriter "soon after coming to America," which is what NB says she said and is just what Fern said.

As I said above, perhaps the most likely explanation is Rand saying something to the effect that "I liked typing so much when I came to the US that I might as well have taken my last name from a Remington Rand typewriter."

Which is not what Nathaniel said she said. Instead what he reports, supposedly in Rand's words, is what Barbara reported Fern recounting.

Is that so difficult to grasp?

Ellen

[Neil Parille]

And I don't find plausible that she said she adopted the name from a Remington-Rand typewriter "soon after coming to America," which is what NB says she said and is just what Fern said.

Why not? Because it involves Rand lying, or because Brown or the Brandens would have known it couldn't have been true?

-Neil Parille

Edited September 19, 2010 by Neil Parille

[Philip Coates]

> More fudging and foozling from Ms. Stuttle. [Robert]

FOOZLING????!!!!

I can't believe you are actually accusing her of foozling. That is a clear proof of your immorality and your seeking to become a microscopic fish in an invisible pond here in the backwoods of the steadily shrinking Objectivist movement. Clearly you are only saying this because you are a power luster and are trying to impress your followers who will applaud you and give you even greater power than you already have. But beware, because those who live by the sward die by the shard and he who does not have something nice to say about another human being should stay nutty overall.

NO ONE can in good conscience accuse another human being of foozling without incontrovertible evidence.

You should have at least asked her if she was foozling, presented foozling photographs, assembled a consensus of experts all of whom had seen the identical foozling activity.

I thought better of you than this, Robert, than to play the foozling card. You have sunk beneath the level of psychoepistemological horror, dropping beneath the level of being a monster even, into the realm of the tar pit of true subhumanistic linguisticizing.

I demand an immediate retraction. (No foozling.)

Edited September 19, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen, this is from Fitts "review" of PARC written this year. Do you think it needs correction, or not?

To get an idea of what I mean, let's consider some of the things Valliant proves in PARC:

http://inductiveques...w-of-james.html

(1) The origin of Rand's American name. Both Nathaniel and Barbara Branden claim that Rand (originally Alice/Alyssa Rosenbaum) changed her name to that of her Remington-Rand typewriter which she brought with her from Russia, with Rand's cousin Fern Brown as Barbara's source. Barbara even claims that Rand never told her family her new name, suggesting a kind of callousness and betrayal of a family who had cared for her enough to help her get out of Russia—fitting perfectly with their portrayal of Rand as manipulative. But these are all lies. As Valliant demonstrates, the Rand Kardex company didn't merge with the Remington company (i.e. the one which manufactured typewriters of the two) until 1927, a year after Rand arrived in America with her typewriter; in fact, Remington-Rand typewriters weren't even made in the 1920's, according to the Remington-Rand company itself. In a letter to a fan, Rand states that her first name is an American version of a Finnish name, and in a New York Evening Post interview she states that her last name is an abbreviation of her Russian surname. (Evidence of this is provided at the ARI site.) In any event, there's no proof that she took her name from a typewriter that didn't even exist at the time she had actually invented the name "Ayn Rand," (sometime around 1925), besides the claims of the Brandens. Furthermore, there are letters from Rand's family in 1926 that explicitly call her "Rand," which were sent beforeshe communicated with them in America, meaning she told them her new name before leaving, contrary to Barbara's claims. A small point, but that the Brandens felt the need to lie about this, and to even suggest that Rand was unfair to her family and left them in the dark about her life in America, is unforgivable and revolting. (PARC, p. 12-14; "How do you pronounce "Ayn?" and "What is the origin of "Rand?"; the "Objectivism Reference Center" speculates that Rand herself may have spread the story of the typewriter, if N. Branden's story is correct. His dishonesty generally, and her accounts of her name being an abbreviation of her Russian name to both theEvening Post and The Saturday Evening Post, however, suggest another instance of Branden simply lying.) [Emph. added.]

The parts I think need correcting are these:

Barbara even claims that Rand never told her family her new name, suggesting a kind of callousness and betrayal of a family who had cared for her enough to help her get out of Russia—fitting perfectly with their portrayal of Rand as manipulative. But these are all lies. [....] that the Brandens felt the need to lie about this, and to even suggest that Rand was unfair to her family and left them in the dark about her life in America, is unforgivable and revolting.

I see no reason to think that Fern was lying, as distinct from falsely remembering. And Barbara didn't know Fern's story wasn't true. Possibly Nathaniel was lying in saying that Rand told the same story to him and Barbara, but he might have just been misremembering details of what she said. The claims that Barbara was suggesting "a kind of callousness [...]" and that "the Brandens" were suggesting "that Rand was unfair to family and left them in the dark about her life in America" come from Valliant's badly mangling and misinterpreting a quote from Passion. Fitts could get the correct version on that from Neil's paper.

I don't see any need for correction with the second statement you bold-faced. Fitts wrote "suggest." He didn't assert lying as definitely established in that sentence.

Ellen

[Philip Coates]

I need a drink. Ellen, pick that nit and Brant, pass the whiskey.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Ellen Stuttle]

And I don't find plausible that she said she adopted the name from a Remington-Rand typewriter "soon after coming to America," which is what NB says she said and is just what Fern said.

Why not? Because it involves Rand lying, or because Brown or the Brandens would have known it couldn't have been true?

-Neil Parille

Slapping my forehead in despair and about to give up.

For neither of those reasons!!! Because it's too big a coincidence that Rand would say the same detail of timing as Fern said independently. Rand sure had no idea Fern was going to tell a story to Barbara after Rand died about Rand taking the name from a typewriter "soon after coming to America." Yeah, coincidences happen. But I find that one just wildly implausible. Your mileage may differ.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Poor Phil.

You needn't read the thread, you know, if you're not interested.

Or bother to get into it.

I'm headed for a drink myself.

Ellen

[kiaer.ts]

And I don't find plausible that she said she adopted the name from a Remington-Rand typewriter "soon after coming to America," which is what NB says she said and is just what Fern said.

Why not? Because it involves Rand lying, or because Brown or the Brandens would have known it couldn't have been true?

-Neil Parille

Slapping my forehead in despair and about to give up.

For neither of those reasons!!! Because it's too big a coincidence that Rand would say the same detail of timing as Fern said independently. Rand sure had no idea Fern was going to tell a story to Barbara after Rand died about Rand taking the name from a typewriter "soon after coming to America." Yeah, coincidences happen. But I find that one just wildly implausible. Your mileage may differ.

Ellen

Have you read Good Copy? Do you know what the title means in general, and in that story specifically?

Edited September 19, 2010 by Ted Keer

[Neil Parille]

Ellen,

I must be a little slow on the uptake.

Rand tells Fern, "I took my name from a Remington Rand typewriter shortly after I arrived in the US."

Fern "retrojects" the memory and later tells the story to Barbara.

Rand tells Barbara, "I took my name from a Remington Rand typewriter shortly after I arrived in the US."

I don't see what coincidence is involved.

In fact the detail about the name being adopted shortly after her arrival to the US is perfectly reasonable if Rand wanted to tell potential listeners that it couldn't be "traced" to Russia. (At some point Rand probably became worried that she had corresponded with her family using "Rand.")

-Neil Parille

Edited September 19, 2010 by Neil Parille

[Robert Campbell]

I see no reason to think that Fern was lying, as distinct from falsely remembering. And Barbara didn't know Fern's story wasn't true. Possibly Nathaniel was lying in saying that Rand told the same story to him and Barbara, but he might have just been misremembering details of what she said. The claims that Barbara was suggesting "a kind of callousness [...]" and that "the Brandens" were suggesting "that Rand was unfair to family and left them in the dark about her life in America" come from Valliant's badly mangling and misinterpreting a quote from Passion. Fitts could get the correct version on that from Neil's paper.

I don't see any need for correction with the second statement you bold-faced. Fitts wrote "suggest." He didn't assert lying as definitely established in that sentence.

This correction is on the feeble side—note Ms. Stuttle's sidestep in the second paragraph.

All the same, let's see whether Ms. Stuttle goes onto Roderick Fitts' site and posts a comment saying what she said here.

Robert Campbell

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Slapping my forehead in despair and about to give up.

Heh.

That'll be the day.

Just for the broken record, I fully believe Rand made up the typewriter story to impress her young disciples in one of her not-finest moments, but let it slide later. And she probably did it years before with Fern. (People never say this kind of thing one time only.) As I am speculating, I believe she eventually did not like the fact that it was not true, so she just let it be.

That even sounds a lot like her.

Barbara has told me in private that Rand told her the story.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Rand's public record of making things up ("no one helped me"--the changes to WTL are minor) provides enough credence to her making up that story about where she got her pen name for whatever reasons.

--Brant

when you get on the horse to go horseback riding be sure you don't end up looking at the rear end of the animal

[Philip Coates]

> You needn't read the thread, you know, if you're not interested. [Ellen]

Train wreck spectator.

> I'm headed for a drink myself.

I'd especially love it if you, Robert, Neil, and Michael could make a hundred repetitive posts across several years about what type of typewriter was used to print the label on the beer bottle and whether the beer bottle will be used afterwards to mix paint or clean brushes. And what the beer manufacturer said on June 23 exactly sixty years ago about his thinking process regarding beer-naming psuedonyms.

That would be a real big contribution in a world that is starving for lack of one to a philosophy of reason which could make a difference.

Keep up the useful and productive work.

Find those nits, every single one.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Rand's public record of making things up ("no one helped me"--the changes to WTL are minor) provides enough credence to her making up that story about where she got her pen name for whatever reasons.

Brant,

And maybe there is plausibility from the fact that Rand was a human being and all human beings make stuff up. That's an inherent part of human nature.

As a parallel to that, ethical principles are chosen. They are not inherent. And after being chosen, they are constantly tested in constantly changing contexts. So people sometimes screw up. This even applies to Rand.

When setting a premise in discussing Rand's life, it is far wiser to say, "Ayn Rand was a human being," rather ignore this fact.

Michael

[Neil Parille]

Rand also said that "Rand" was an "Americanization" or "abbreviation" of her Russian name. But the couple Russian speakers I asked said this isn't true. While there is no rule book on how to abbreviate a name, "Rand" doesn't sound like a condensation of "Rosenbaum" to me.

There is also the report of Rand telling Barbara that she received "highest honors" at her university when the courses were pass/fail.

-Neil Parille

[9thdoctor]

what the beer manufacturer said on June 23 exactly sixty years ago about his thinking process regarding beer-naming psuedonyms.

June 23? St. John’s Eve? These are deep waters, have you started reading books I’ve recommended?

Rand also said that "Rand" was an "Americanization" or "abbreviation" of her Russian name. But the couple Russian speakers I asked said this isn't true. While there is no rule book on how to abbreviate a name, "Rand" doesn't sound like a condensation of "Rosenbaum" to me.

I saw somewhere, probably on an ARIan site, an image of how Rosenbaum looked in a fancy script (Russian alphabet), like you’d have on a diploma, and you could see RANDAYN in there if you wanted to see it. I found it fairly convincing when I saw it.

[kiaer.ts]

Rand also said that "Rand" was an "Americanization" or "abbreviation" of her Russian name. But the couple Russian speakers I asked said this isn't true. While there is no rule book on how to abbreviate a name, "Rand" doesn't sound like a condensation of "Rosenbaum" to me.

There is also the report of Rand telling Barbara that she received "highest honors" at her university when the courses were pass/fail.

-Neil Parille

While there is no way literally to describe Rand as an abbreviation of the Russian Rozenbaum:

Розенбаум

It's quite obvious that these cavils are mere quibbles.

[Selene]

Ted:

That's the tribble with troubles!

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

Ted:

That's the tribble with troubles!

Adam

Mmmmmm...

Tribble...