List of plagiarisms by Victor Pross


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Robert,

Out of respect for you -- apparently you aren't understanding my point either -- I'll state it one more time in a different way.

I'll preface by reminding you that you -- like many others here -- were for the most part not reading Victor Pross's posts. I, too, skipped a whole lot of them. But I was aware, as were some others, well before even the Nicholas Dykes incident, that Victor was habitually lifting material from unnamed sources. I'm also aware that Michael was aware of this.

Thus my point is that Michael has no moral high ground from which to complain about someone's having shat all over his list. He knew the current habits (whether they're long-standing habits or not is immaterial to the current circumstances) of the person whom he was allowing to roam his precincts. Granted, he didn't do the plagiarizing. He isn't directly culpable for Victor's actions. But neither is he innocent. It's his presenting himself as the aggrieved party to which I object.

Now, if you, Robert, or if someone else besides you and Michael, still doesn't understand why I've felt that in good conscience I could not keep silent about Michael's presenting the "poor Michael" picture he's been presenting, I'm willing to answer a direct question.

Otherwise, I want very much to retire to lurk-only mode -- and not just because of the Victor Pross mess; because i want to retire, period, from e-list involvement.

Ellen

___

Edited by Ellen Stuttle
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Thus my point is that Michael has no moral high ground from which to complain about someone's having shat all over his list.

. . .

But neither is he innocent. It's his presenting himself as the aggrieved party to which I object.

Now, if you, Robert, or if someone else besides you and Michael, still doesn't understand why I've felt that in good conscience I could not keep silent about Michael's presenting the "poor Michael" picture he's been presenting, I'm willing to answer a direct question.

Ellen,

This is disgusting. The reason you are not understood is that you are wrong.

I am not presenting "poor Michael" crap. I have fully owned up to my part, it's in public and you know it. I will let others speculate as to why you are insisting otherwise. I tried to keep all this backstage but people like you keep it in the foreground because you value these things.

I deeply regret the inconvenience to everyone for the Pross mess. I explained clearly why I did what I did. The only thing I know to do about it is to apologize, clean up the mess and make sure it doesn't happen again. You want more. You want to claim (and for me to claim) that I had dishonorable motives. I did not and I can't give it. I made a terrible mistake in judgment in trying to develop a value of mine (redemption from addiction and moral learning) and that's all you are getting.

I am tired of being insulted like this on my own site. You had your say and it is on record. I will delete any further examples of your so-called explanations of my own immorality.

I will not host any more of that crap.

Michael

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Mr. Pross's legacy to OL is pretty damn sour already. Why give him the satisfaction (if that's the right word for it) of knowing that major legitimate contributors to the list are quarreling over him after he's gone?

Robert,

It didn't take long. Pross is now crowing on Meetup that he and Ellen are joint seekers of the truth in uncovering the true villain (see here). According to him, they are now comrades in arms. He claims Ellen liberated him. Here's a direct quote:

Yeah, I know how she feels. Been there and done that. Finally, I am free.

Great job, folks. Wonderful teamwork!

:)

(My good humor is starting to return.)

Michael

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I see that Mr. Pross is publishing more private emails as well.

If called on that lovely practice, won't he say that Lindsay Perigo and Diana Hsieh taught him to do it?

Robert Campbell

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Where he [Victor] did impress me was in his caricature work; there is real talent there, though I frequently disliked it--intensely disliked it. He did do a great one of Chris.

--Brant

Brant, I wrote the following awhile ago in an email to Michael:

"His consistent style is to caricature in the direction of extreme ugliness, even when he's caricaturing someone he admires or likes. Even his drawing of Angie shows a woman with a very unattractive soul; she looks sullen, and mean, with none of the high energy and spirit of the woman who posts to OL; she seems secretive, withdrawn, as if fearful of being seen. Interestingly, there is a strong element of fear in almost all of the faces.

"Victor may have a certain talent, but the use to which he puts it, and what his psychology has done to it, makes me indifferent to whatever talent he has. These drawings are quite consistent with my view of him -- although probably a little worse. I found them acutely unpleasant to look at. (Seeing The Hockey Players, I thought of Capuletti's wonderful drawings of American football players.)

Barbara

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Barbara wrote:

Brant, I wrote the following awhile ago in an email to Michael:

"His consistent style is to caricature in the direction of extreme ugliness, even when he's caricaturing someone he admires or likes. Even his drawing of Angie shows a woman with a very unattractive soul; she looks sullen, and mean, with none of the high energy and spirit of the woman who posts to OL; she seems secretive, withdrawn, as if fearful of being seen. Interestingly, there is a strong element of fear in almost all of the faces.

Barbara

Wow, this is news to me. A drawing of me that was posted on OL or elsewhere?? I found out 2 or so months ago that my face was depicted in Rich's album cover that Victor did which I wasn't aware of until well after it was said and done. I have never seen any drawings, paintings, or the like of me that was done by Victor so I am now very curious as to what Barbara said and would like to see it. I have not spoken with Victor in at least 3 or 4 weeks, so was it done in that time frame and recently posted somewhere? I looked at the Rand Meetup group to see if it was posted there and didn't see anything.

Angie

Edited by CNA
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Angie,

I also saw it (two or three days ago). On Meetup, he posted a link to a Flickr account where he put his caricatures. Among them was a drawing of your face with a caption that he took only 20 minutes to draw it or something like that. I just looked to give you the link and it is no longer online. My take on it was similar to Barbara's. I got the feeling of troubled insecurity from it.

Michael

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Angie,

I also saw it (two or three days ago). On Meetup, he posted a link to a Flickr account where he put his caricatures. Among them was a drawing of your face with a caption that he took only 20 minutes to draw it or something like that. I just looked to give you the link and it is no longer online. My take on it was similar to Barbara's. I got the feeling of troubled insecurity from it.

Michael

Hmm...very interesting. Well, given that it's been several weeks since I''ve had any convo of substance with Victor and what happened then, he may very well be upset with me and for some reason I'm not too surprised.

Angie

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~ Kee-ripes! I come back to deal with Baal about Einstein and Aristotle, but notice and start reading this thread (and links) and there goes a couple hours! All this over Pross? It became clear to me (finally) that he slid into a bad habit, and I finally said 'sayonara'; but, all this?...whew!

~ I think that ref you gave, Mike, about plagiarism's psychological equivalence to kleptomania is probably a sound application here, given that the habit/addiction (preferential choice?) occurred mucho before OL. Unfortunate some disagree with you (nm want to hang you for not sticking to their interpretation of your words.) --- Why does all this make me think of Munchausen Syndrome? Nm; rhetorical question.

~ An interesting set of perspectives on his caricaturing style of art. Tried to pin down what I disliked about it, apart from his having obvious talent, and couldn't. Most interesting on hindsight: his art doesn't really match 'his' views on Romantic Art.

LLAP

J:D

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Mike:

~ Btw: I think you've handled this...problem...as best as could be, especially with the risks involved in giving 'the benefit of doubt' re checking for 'redemption.' Maybe a lesson to be learned there about thinking twice on doing that, I guess. I mean that for all of us re all relational probs, ie: knowing when "enough's Enough." Ah, well...live and learn.

~ GL on the 'cleanup' necessities (reminds me: I gotta stack some wood piled in the driveway 'fore winter.)

MTF(especially Health)BWY

LLAP

J:D

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have been busy cleaning up. I decided not to comment much as I go along so we can get on with other more productive discussions. But I just encountered something so weird that I have to make a public note of it. I have come across plagiarism in reverse. Ron Merrill is given credit for descriptions of Ellsworth Toohey he never made. See here and here. According to Pross:

Toohey is---as Ron Merrill described him, a “Moriarty of the mind” or a “brilliant specimen of demonology”---having as his arsenal a grasp of the “metaphysical needs of man” and a plethora of ideologies to serve up to his spiritually starved followers.

I have checked all of Merrill's writings to which I have access (The Ideas of Ayn Rand and his writings archived online here). If these three phrases quoted by Pross exist, I have not found them. (Just for the record, there were slight misquotes of other passages that were obvious errors, what one might call "honest errors." I corrected them within the posts. See here and here and here. I am only referring to the misquotes, not the plagiarisms of Merrill.)

Questions abound in my head, but I guess there is no "why." This stuff is an end in itself.

Michael

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Here is something sickening. Literally, I'm shaking, because this one truly turns my stomach.

I happened to look tonight at a thread I don't think I've ever before looked at -- the "School Rant" thread. (One of the new posters, Jehni, had posted something there and I was curious to see what she'd written.)

I noticed a post "by Victor" just a couple above Jehni's post. I read what "Victor" had written and knew that he had gotten the basic wording and outline from someone else. My first thought was maybe from something of Michael Newberry's.

No, not something by Michael Newberry. A heart-wrenchingly deeply meant piece by Ashley Fraizer titled "Making Life Extraordinary." The original is a speech Ashley gave. Victor radically shortened it but kept much of the exact wording of the parts he used.

http://solohq.solopassion.com/Articles/Fra...aordinary.shtml

Scroll down to the paragraph below the italicized poem, and compare from there to Victor's rendition.

Ellen

Added comment: One paragraph of Victor's version does NOT come from Ashley. When I read the post on the "School Rant" thread, I thought that that particular paragraph didn't mesh with the tone of the rest. It's the next-to-the-last paragraph, which starts:

Everybody has a hidden agenda. And you can be sure that they see their best interest is to be found in your defeat. That's their code: my gain--your pain.

That sentiment is Victor's.

___

(Note from MSK: Thank you, Ellen. Duly edited.)

Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly
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Here is something sickening. Literally.

_

It is indeed sickening, and ugly. It's bad enough to steal someone's thoughts and identifications and the unique wording of those thoughts; it's somehow still worse o steal someone's personal, intimate expression of his spirit. This, truly, is identity theft -- by a man who has no identity of his own.

Barbara

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[...] it's somehow still worse o steal someone's personal, intimate expression of his spirit. This, truly, is identity theft -- by a man who has no identity of his own.

Just correcting the sex. ;-) Ashley is female -- a very lovely woman, and not given to self-advertising. I know that writing the speech was a soul-searching effort on her part, a seeking of deep honesty. It's his using a work written from the place within whence that piece came which gave me a visceral reaction to that particular lifting. Also his having used it to garner esteem in the eyes of the young persons posting on the "School Rant" thread.

I just added an edit to my earlier post, and will repeat the addition so it won't be missed by those who have already read the earlier post:

--

Added comment: One paragraph of Victor's version does NOT come from Ashley. When I read the post on the "School Rant" thread, I thought that that particular paragraph didn't mesh with the tone of the rest. It's the next-to-the-last paragraph, which starts:

Everybody has a hidden agenda. And you can be sure that they see their best interest is to be found in your defeat. That's their code: my gain--your pain.

That sentiment is Victor's.

___

Edited by Ellen Stuttle
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Hello everyone, I hope you are all doing well.

I write this post here rather than on the thread where Michael posts an apology for deleting a post of mine because this seems to be the ongoing thread concerning Victor's behavior.

First of all I want to publicly thank Michael for his apology which was sent to me in a E-Mail with an attached linK to the targeted thread. As i stated to him I did not agree with the deletion but I respected his right to do so based on administering the forum.

I do not have much to say other than I became more than a little suspicious of Victor with a post he made over at SOLO in referece to Quantum Physics. One which I notice Ellen made a link to in one of her earlier posts on this thread. At the time I read his post in SOLO something about it rang a strong bell, but I never could place just why it sounded so familiar and I dropped it. After being banned from there and chastised here for his plagirizing another I just could not shake the feeling something about him was amiss.

I won't add anymore as I am not here to beat up on him now that he is gone nor to ring my own bell in the matter. Overall it is a shame because I don't believe he is a bad person, just one who is seriously misguided.

As I told Michael I have been making some changes in my life which are consuming a lot of time and I did not just abandon the site but more a case of spending a lot of time studying.

Best wishes to everyone, :)

LW

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There is a touch of bitter irony I want to leave on record in a place where I will see it at times. Pross started posting on OL on June 23, 2006. (I am now selecting posts from the beginning to examine.) On June 24, he wrote the following (about being attacked on Solo Passion):

Truly, if this doesn’t turn my universe upside down, it’ll be an intellectual/emotional achievement so great that it alone should exonerate me of the sin of plagiarism.

It wasn't and it didn't.

Michael

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  • 6 years later...

I know this topic is long dead for some people at this point. But I wanted to let people know the lengths that some people will go to cover things like this up. I was posting on Michael Shanklin's wall recently (He is an Anarcho-Capitalist internet personality on youtube) and I posted a link to this conversation there. What followed was a woman threatening to tell everyone on the internet that I apparently raped a 13 year old girl unless I agreed to take the post down.

Not sure if this link will work. This conversation went on on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/shanklinmichael/posts/733397230022345?comment_id=90065054&notif_t=like

If that link does not work, I have some screenshots.

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It looks like Neil is archiving this material here in case it disappears elsewhere.

The comments are interesting for the crazy, insane, slandering lies from "Amanda" and the sane lies from that "artist" guy who keeps claiming his shit wasn't shit and it happened a "decade" ago. Ha! VP could even be "Amanda." I don't think their comments overlapped and he's quite capable, but I'm not ever going back there to double check. If I could give a damn about that I wouldn't but I don't.

--Brant

ugh

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It looks like Neil is archiving this material here in case it disappears elsewhere.

The comments are interesting for the crazy, insane, slandering lies from "Amanda" and the sane lies from that "artist" guy who keeps claiming his shit wasn't shit and it happened a "decade" ago. Ha! VP could even be "Amanda." I don't think their comments overlapped and he's quite capable, but I'm not ever going back there to double check. If I could give a damn about that I wouldn't but I don't.

--Brant

ugh

Yeah, it got really, really off the chain and is continuing to do so. Victor seems to of gone absolutely crazy since I posted the link to this forum. Recently he has become somewhat of a public figure, being invited to Anarcho-Capitalist "events" and being sought out as an "expert" on all things related.

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Neil,

Welcome to OL,

Not interested in your topic, though. Way too much hassle and past pain.

Do you like Ayn Rand, etc.?

And please, let's move this to a different thread.

Michael

I won't press any further, but I wanted people to be aware of the incredible impact that this thread seems to have on Victor and what his follower (or him as a sock puppet) is willing to do to get people not to ever talk about it. It's actually kind of scary.

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