caroljane

Crossborder Faceoffs

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Marc, William, will this do for a place to "take it outside"?  We have now three Canadians, two true patriots who love hockey and one differently-gened who doesn't care about it. But this year since Winnipeg went out I don't care the way I should anyway.  Golden Knights and Marc-Andre Fleury are so incredible a story it almost seems the  Cup would be too much - tempting the hockey gods. So we can't fight much about the most important issue, I trust.

But what good will Trump starting a trade war do to his supporters?  There is such a thing as a Punic victory.

Is Trump going to attend any of the final games?  Does he have a bet with the governor of Nevada about it? Does it involve chorus girls?

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, caroljane said:

But what good will Trump starting a trade war do to his supporters?  There is such a thing as a Punic victory.

Everything steel and aluminum costs more now, so there's that.  If Canada matched the milk-supports of the USA, our dairy would be the cheapest in North America and would flood all the way to New Orleans. Our version of communist-based milk-price-support is not gargantuan cheese stockpiles but managing production, planned to demand.  This achieves the Canadian goal of market price stability and allows innovation.  So Quebec dominates all of North America with its cheeses' quality and reach  while its aviation and heavy rail products inch their way into every pantry.  Its circuses also crush everyone in the American market. What to do about these built-in advantages? What are we supposed to do?

Our lumber is as always the finest in the Americas and stands on Crown land (cheap!) and our hydro is cheap because it's by nature's own powerful capitalist design; our oil is cheap and handy to the US, as are our coal and copper, nickel, uranium, molybdenum, diamonds and gold. Our grain is managed by national co-operatives, so that the prairies never again experience a Dirty Thirties.  I just don't see these things re-balancing to serve a Republican agenda.  No elected conservative in Canada has come down on the Trump side of the disputes.

I don't really know the full outrage Canada has visited upon America via  trade, but Trump's tweets and statements indicate his displeasure with these areas above. How else to we f**k them over, I'll do some digging.

The best way to make peace with Trump may be to blame it on those danged political structures designed by French-Canadians ... n'est-ce pas?

_________________________________

-- for those tempted by the idea that Canada is simply a dominion, not really apart from America and actually "ruled" by the Deep Understanding that Canadian foreign policy will not be allowed to get seriously out of whack with America's, and tempted to view it as a backyard in the sense of property, then you need to court dissonance and point out that this suggests an ever greater union. Union, as in no cross-state impediments to commerce.

Trade destroyed the old Japanese system. Trade destroyed the communism of Mao. Trade made the Soviet Union great.  Now the dwindling economies of the East are mad. The slumping work corps and birth rates in Russia are but one example of a system in decay. Almost psychotic levels of corruption abound in the former soviet lands.  What point to reward their countries with access and contracts?

I am totally optimistic about US-Canada trade in the long-run. It churns back and forth every day and it will continue. I do see it mostly on Justin Trudeau's shoulders.  The two leaders should meet at some point if the dispute gets fiery and the lava splatters widely.

Who'd have thought of a 'friendly' summit with Russia, and an 'unfriendly' summit with Canada?

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I wonder why he picked on us way more than anyone else on the steel and aluminum.  Could it be that steel and aluminum are such essentials in, you know, constructing buildings? Surely it could not be that simplistic.

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3 minutes ago, caroljane said:

I wonder why he picked on us way more than anyone else on the steel and aluminum. 

It's weird on steel, because there we don't dominate imports, relatively.  Aluminum, though -- it is one of the most common elements on the earth's surface. Canada has indeed muscled in on places where the pure underground precursors are found, built entire towns to churn out the bauxite to load into hoppers to ship off to our smelters and follow-on full industrial specialization. Aluminum is one of the blood-lymphatic systems of every industrial/industrializing country's economy. So the US-Canadian supplies and production have integrated. Through robust competition.  In some ways against an Asian dominion.

And steel? We don't dominate, at only six percent of US imports, although we trade dollar for dollar almost the exact same amount. 

I don't know much about steel, since BC has no primary smelters. I guess the key is always to react smartly to mill and downstream jobs disappearing in the face of Asian price competition. What can we do but specialize, specialize, specialize, don't just abandon a town like Hamilton, once having nineteen steelmills now almost none (but see what the US owners have done) -- re-tool, re-train, re-purpose and re-export, or otherwise re-incorporate into continental supply-chains.  Commercial interests can be both bold and canny where survival and flourishing is at stake.

The canny Scots propensity for traveling the world of knowledge for markets and bargains and industrial oomph and plenty? Trading on excellence, value, reliability?  A world-straddling Empire?  Supple, cunning, relentless?

Very Trumpish. Let's hope we mayn't be unduly punished for being Trumpier-Scotlier than the Emperor! 

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Trump wants the US to make its own steel again (MSGA), and Trump should know a lot about steel because his buildings don't fall down.

Spoiler

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOm_YO47aHVoJX8j24M3z

MSGA!

But note that Trump has used Chinese steel recently, a lot of it:

Six Facts on Donald Trump’s Use of Chinese Steel

https://aflcio.org/2016/10/12/six-facts-donald-trumps-use-chinese-steel

[...]

Donald Trump used Chinese steel and aluminum. The United States has a long history of producing high-quality steel and aluminum, but Trump chose Chinese manufacturers in at least two of his recent construction projects. The Trump International Hotel Las Vegas and the Trump International Hotel & Tower Chicago both used tons of Chinese metals.

The origin of the steel used was obscured. The origin of the steel used to build the Trump hotel in Las Vegas was hidden through a tangle of “various corporate entities, including holding companies registered in the British Virgin Islands," a popular location for offshore entities who place a premium on, ahem, discretion.

Trump spent at least $350 million on Chinese aluminum. Newsweek estimated Trump used 207,000 feet of Chinese aluminum for the Trump hotel in Chicago. Conservative estimates based on pound per foot means at least $350 million in sales went to a subsidiary of a Chinese aluminum manufacturer. This, when the American aluminum industry is collapsing. In the past two years, “more than half of the country’s aluminum smelters in states like Ohio, West Virginia and Texas have closed as a result of being undercut on price by competition from overseas.”

Chinese aluminum companies used predatory pricing. Trump purchased the aluminum used in the Trump hotel in Chicago “curtain walls” through entities that sold the aluminum products “below the cost of production or the amount charged in China.” This means American aluminum companies couldn’t possibly compete with foreign companies “willing to take losses on the sales of their building materials in hopes of driving companies in the United States out of business.” Patriotic.

Trump’s use of Chinese steel and aluminum is at the expense of America's workers. Trump doesn’t operate a publicly traded company, and he has no fiduciary obligation to shareholders. His decisions are all about higher profits for himself and his family at the expense of American producers and their employees.

Trump pays his Chinese partners. Or at least there aren’t any reports of Chinese steel or aluminum companies suing to be paid. Unlike in the United States, where workers have time and time again had to sue Trump in order to receive a partial payment for completed jobs.

Sad!

 

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Full disclosure here , been a Philadelphia Flyers fan since we picked Bobby Clarke , from Flin Flon , Manitoba . 

 

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I just think that Trump negotiates a certain way , I think PM Trudeau will cut a very good deal , as will POTUS . 

And , of course , Premiere Ford 

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49 minutes ago, Marc said:

Full disclosure here , been a Philadelphia Flyers fan since we picked Bobby Clarke , from Flin Flon , Manitoba . 

 

Bobby Clarke, legend and Bully-in-Chief of the Broad Street Bullies!  Of course you would become a Trump fan-- I understand it all now. Actually I liked Clarke and his fiendish toothless grin, apparently he has become a good hockey exec now.

Did you see Trump's tweet about the Caps when they beat the Pens and advanced to the Cup final, finally?  He reminded them they are chokemeisters and said Barry Trotz was losing sleep. Way to encourage the home team, Donald.

Benefit of the doubt, maybe he's a Rangers fan and bears a grudge against Washington for winning the East.

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I haven't seen this yet, but I just came across it and thought here would be a good place for it.

I will see it, though. It's too late right now.

I love the feeling of stirring up stuff...

:evil:  :)

Michael

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Wowee, it sure isn't Bill Davis's Ontario anymore.

Latest eve-of-election news is that Renata , relict of the late  Rob  Ford, is suing Doug because she alleges he has cheated her and her children out of millions from the family business. Maybe this is old news  that has just been unearthed by the two rival parties  (we don't have informants in every courthouse like TMZ and the National Enquirer do ).but what a gift to them.  Still there is a good chance the Ford fans will dismiss it as mainstream media meddling, or decide that it isn't relevant.

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Mises.org is right -- It's fun watching the meddlers/protectionists squawking about meddling/protectionizing:

https://mises.org/power-market/trump-right-trudeau-big-fat-phony-trade

It hurts people! Innocent babies will die! But only when Trump suggests it, and not when we implement it.

J

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37 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Mises.org is right -- It's fun watching the meddlers/protectionists squawking about meddling/protectionizing:

https://mises.org/power-market/trump-right-trudeau-big-fat-phony-trade

It hurts people! Innocent babies will die! But only when Trump suggests it, and not when we implement it.

J

You are quite right .  Ford meddled and protectionized himself to the point of scrapping the campaign bus tradition to exclude the pesky MSM, and hiring actors to produce staged "press conferences", as mentioned in Real Fake News thread.

No Trump angle here, except Doug wantstabe  a mini-Trump.

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26 minutes ago, caroljane said:

You are quite right .  Ford meddled and protectionized himself to the point of scrapping the campaign bus tradition to exclude the pesky MSM, and hiring actors to produce staged "press conferences", as mentioned in Real Fake News thread.

No Trump angle here, except Doug wantstabe  a mini-Trump.

Um, sorry, I'm not understanding that. I said nothing about Ford, nor did the article that I linked to.

Some variation on tu quoque? Is that what you're doing???

J

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2 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Um, sorry, I'm not understanding that. I said nothing about Ford, nor did the article that I linked to.

Some variation on tu quoque? Is that what you're doing???

J

Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post that preceded yours, and I assumed your link was connected to Ford.  I admit I seldom click on links but rely on the gist of the post.

My mistake.

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I suggest the only fruitful option is an all-out Milk War between the USA and Canada.  The communistics of Canada's Bad Milk System communism is in high contrast to the USA's Good Milk System communistics.  After so many years of outrages against America, something has to give.

One fun part of crossing the border regularly now that we live in Chilliwack is observing the furious trade in milk and its products, which furiosity rises and falls with variations in the exchange rate between the two currencies.

As of today ... instead of paying $4.65 Cdn for four litres of Canadian 3.25% goodness, and avoiding the duties that would make an American gallon of whole milk cost $8.10 were duties applied on small amounts of "personal" milk dragged from Piggly-Wiggly Gas and Milk to my pantry ... as of today I can bicycle the 42 kilometres to Sumas and pack back a gallon of sweet pure homogeneity for the low price of $3.00 US ($3.90 Cdn).

Greater wars have been fought over lesser duties.

In any case, the USA communist-based industrial subsidy might be argued to be an equally-evul toying with collective support of industry and consumers. 

Don't get me started on the War against Yellow Margarine.

-- the milk issue is less amenable to rational thought than the aluminum and steel issue, where the solution is everyone pay more now forever thank you.  What is the problem with subsidized US milk flooding the North? Depends on your point of view and your ability to see things in black and while and only black and white.

Edited by william.scherk
Spellink errors

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46 minutes ago, caroljane said:

Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post that preceded yours, and I assumed your link was connected to Ford.  I admit I seldom click on links but rely on the gist of the post.

My mistake.

Okay, cool.

J

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10 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

I suggest the only fruitful option is an all-out Milk War between the USA and Canada.  The communistics of Canada's Bad Milk System communism is in high contrast to the USA's Good Milk System communistics.  After so may years of outrages against America, something has to give.

One fun part of crossing the border regularly now that we live in Chilliwack is observing the furious trade in milk and its products, which furiosity rises and falls with variations in the exchange rate between the two currencies.

As of today ... instead of paying $4.65 Cdn for four litres of Canadian 3.25% goodness, and avoiding the duties that would make an American gallon of whole milk cost $8.10 were duties applied on small amounts of "personal" milk dragged from Piggly-Wiggly Gas and Milk to my pantry ... as of today I can bicycle the 42 kilometres to Sumas and pack back a gallon of sweet pure homogeneity for the low price of $3.00 US ($3.90 Cdn).

Greater wars have been fought over lesser duties.

In any case, the USA communist-based industrial subsidy might be argued to be an equally-evul toying with collective support of industry and consumers. 

Don't get me started on the War against Yellow Margarine.

-- the milk issue is less amenable to rational thought than the Aluminum and steel issue, where the solution is everyone pay more now forever thank you.  What is the problem with subsidized US milk flooding the North? Depends on your point of view and your ability to see things in black and while and only black and white.

The dairy issue -- in both nations -- is retardation multiplied by infinity.

J

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OMG,being 213 years old I dimly remember the coloured margarine issue, being in the smuggling capital of Canada we had our choice, they were both so disgusting I did not even eat butter for 25 years.

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At the Schmorg Manor (where I grew into a rock and roller at the age of eighteen), we had an old Life magazine which advertisement for Yellow Margarine I retained in memory for years. "Fight for the right to Yellow Margarine."  Only later did I discover the Mr Thompson-ish Margarine Act of 1886.

As always, there is another side to the issue:

Oleo-Caper.jpg

Versus ...

1686bcc77814c937af9802895735679a--retro-

This is what I had memorized:

yellowMargeFIGHT.png

I wonder if the Dairy Plot is related to the Avian Agenda.  As may not be known, Canada's communist 'Supply Management' also covers Chickens and Eggs.

If you can't protect your own farms and farmers, and borders, who can you protect? My heart goes out the Cheese People, be they orange or be they yellow. As Mr Trump might say, "there's good people on both sides."

Edited by william.scherk
Added informative links to images; added frills and ruffles

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6 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

At the Schmorg Manor (where I grew into a rock and roller at the age of eighteen), we had an old Life magazine which advertisement for Yellow Margarine I retained in memory for years. "Fight for the right to Yellow Margarine."

As always, there is another side to the issue:

Oleo-Caper.jpg

Versus ...

1686bcc77814c937af9802895735679a--retro-

This is what I had memorized:

yellowMargeFIGHT.png

Fight for the right to eat coloured lard -- ah, the Age of Innocence.

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I never thought I'd have a good word to say for the Koch brothers,  but for  opposing their own protege Trump on free trade, they might teach him that such wars are not as easy to win as he assumed.

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9 minutes ago, caroljane said:

... but for  opposing their own protege Trump on free trade, they might teach him...

Carol

The Koch brothers were mentors to President Trump?

On what planet?

:)

But let's suppose they were.

In their elitist wisdom, maybe one day they will teach him how to win an election to become President by appealing to honest hard-working producers and disdaining the self-entitled elitists...

Oh...

Maybe they don't need to.

But gosh... They have so many things to teach him...

:) 

Michael

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