Carlos Castaneda

[Jonathan]

Carlos' bait was entertainment and a charismatic personality. He easily could of had his own late night television talk show, because he was actually that good.

I doubt that. I've heard certain people say similar things about people who they think are charismatic and entertaining, when most other people would rate the alleged charmers as being very creepy, manipulative, and lacking in charm. I think a more likely explanation would be that some people, including you to a certain degree, have a defective creep-o-meter compared to most people, and they imagine seeing star power and talent where it doesn't actually exist.

I'm reminded of an older teen-ager who used to show up occasionally in one of the towns that I lived in when I was growing up, and how certain kids were attracted to him as if he were a rockstar. They'd follow him around, adore him, and mimic his mannerisms. They thought he was the ultimate in cool, and that he was brilliantly funny and entertaining. To everyone else, he was a super-creepy loser. And he was. He went on to have quite a criminal record.

We also knew his ex wife (now deceased) and son, whom Carlos used to take up into Topanga Canyon when he was a kid. Carlos had some really odd connections to Topanga. Much to my surprise, I discovered that one of my neighbors used to be the Editor of UCLA's University Press. He was the one who published Carlos' first book that got him the Doctorate degree, and had lots of funny anecdotes of Castaneda.

I've know people who are otherwise very intelligent who have been dazzled by creepy manipulators. I've seen very bright business people hire talentless showboaters who have a long history of damaging the companies they've worked for. The victims' creep-o-meters aren't working properly, and they refuse to listen to everyone else who is screaming warnings at them. They often end up paying very high prices for being dazzled by these people, including losing wealth, reliable business partners, friends and family.

J

[Ellen Stuttle]

Jonathan,

Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

Also, judging from photos of him, he did have an appearance that a lot of people would find magnetic - link. As much so as NB.

Ellen

[Mikee]

Mike,

An attenuated version of what you describe in the post above happened and still happens with Objectivism. And it wasn't just Rand's and/or Nathaniel Branden's personal charisma making it work, since there's a carry-over to Peikoff as the replacement guru - and if he has any personal charisma, I've never discerned it.

Ellen

Ellen,

I could have sworn I replied to your message. Must have hit the wrong button...

Objectivism is the perfect antidote to the cult mentality...Except, there's no accounting for the "true believer" personality looking for some way to set themselves apart from the masses and know the "true way". A is A and check your premises is totally lost on true believers. But boy, is objectivism a cool way to feel superior to your fellow man. The elements are there; perfect knowledge and superiority over everyone else and nature. I don't think Ayn Rand or Nathaniel Branden were prepared for the types of people they would attract. I've always thought Ayn's irascibility later on was her reaction to people who refused to think for themselves. New movements are an attractor for damaged personalities.

[Selene]

I've always thought Ayn's irascibility later on was her reaction to people who refused to think for themselves. New movements are an attractor for damaged personalities.

Excellent observation.

Does not even need to be a movement. A cause. A political campaign. A gang.

Needy and unfulfiled is fertile ground to reap faithful fanatics.

Have scythe. Will recruit.

A...

[Ellen Stuttle]

I don't think Ayn Rand or Nathaniel Branden were prepared for the types of people they would attract.

I think that's true of Rand, but I don't think it is of Nathaniel. I think that he learned audience manipulation techniques quickly. Also that he did abundant lording it over in inner and wider circles. The attitude of "the Chosen" continued, however, after the break, and continues with Peikoff as "intellectual heir."

Ellen

[moralist]

Jonathan,

Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

...and not just in his books. In person he was even better.

Also, judging from photos of him, he did have an appearance that a lot of people would find magnetic - link. As much so as NB.

Ellen

In your link, the lower left three photos in that grouping are not Carlos. The rest are him but just from two old photos. He was very resolute about minimizing photographic evidence of himself even to the point of obfuscation. Even when Time Magazine did a huge story on him in 1973, they didn't have a cover photo of him to publish. My wife's book, "Filming Castaneda", has more current pictures of Carlos and the gang.

Greg

[moralist]

Self appointed megalomaniacs and perverts who brain wash people into self destructive behavior: open season [i think]. There is no light side, if you applied your memory and analytical abilities to exactly how Carlos plied his "magic" of warping perceptions it would be helpful.

My view is understandably quite different from yours because the nature of my personal involvement was also different. I actually didn't see any victims of Carlos. Everyone who freely chose to buy into his fantasy got exactly what they deserved.

Greg

[moralist]

I've always thought Ayn's irascibility later on was her reaction to people who refused to think for themselves.

I agree. Her attitude was derived from decades of casting pearls before swine...

...and a whole nation is going straight into the crapper in exactly the way she said it would.

Greg

[Jonathan]

Jonathan,

Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

I've read some of his work. I didn't find him to be a hell of a story-teller, but actually pretty dull, artless, and often downright tedious in style.

J

[moralist]

Have scythe. Will recruit.

Have scythe will harvest.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Jonathan,Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

...and not just in his books. In person he was even better.

Also, judging from photos of him, he did have an appearance that a lot of people would find magnetic - link. As much so as NB.

Ellen

In your link, the lower left three photos in that grouping are not Carlos. The rest are him but just from two old photos. He was very resolute about minimizing photographic evidence of himself even to the point of obfuscation. Even when Time Magazine did a huge story on him in 1973, they didn't have a cover photo of him to publish. My wife's book, "Filming Castaneda", has more current pictures of Carlos and the gang.

Greg

In the set which shows on my screen, the lower-far-left photo isn't him. The second-to-left is the same photo of a young Castaneda which appears several times in the block of photos. The third is this, which appears on a page advertising his work. It looks to me like an older version of the young photo.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Jonathan,

Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

I've read some of his work. I didn't find him to be a hell of a story-teller, but actually pretty dull, artless, and often downright tedious in style.

J

We sure react differently in that. I was quite entertained by his work, read at least the first four twice (I think there were others after that which I didn't read), remember various scenes, and think I'd enjoy reading the books again if I had time to do so.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Re the link in #36, I noticed this question and answer when glancing through the interview;

link

Q: What's the aim of you not allowing yourself to be photographed, having your voice recorded or making your biographical data known? Could this affect what you've achieved in your spiritual work, and if so how? Don't you think it would be useful for some sincere seekers of truth to know who you really are, as a way of corroborating that it is really possible to follow the path you proclaim?

A: With reference to photographs and personal data, the other three disciples of don Juan and myself follow his instructions. For a shaman like don Juan, the main idea behind refraining from giving personal data is very simple. It is imperative to leave aside what he called "personal history". To get away from the "me" is something extremely annoying and difficult. What shamans like don Juan seek is a state of fluidity where the personal "me" does not count. He believed that an absence of photographs and biographical data affects whomever enters into this field of action in a positive, though subliminal way. We are endlessly accustomed to using photographs, recordings and biographical data, all of which spring from the idea of personal importance. Don Juan said it was better not to know anything about a shaman; in this way, instead of encountering a person, one encounters an idea that can be sustained; the opposite of what happens in the everyday world where we are faced only with people who have numerous psychological problems but no ideas, all of these people filled to the brim with "me, me, me."

Ellen

[Selene]

Have scythe. Will recruit.

Have scythe will harvest.

Only if you sow, so shall ye reap.

"Marcus T. Cicero, said, As you have sown so shall you reap.

And in the New Testament we find, whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.(Galatians 6:7)"

I used the word in one of it's meanings regarding harvesting.

Castenada harvested from what society had sown.

[moralist]

In the set which shows on my screen, the lower-far-left photo isn't him. The second-to-left is the same photo of a young Castaneda which appears several times in the block of photos. The third is this, which appears on a page advertising his work. It looks to me like an older version of the young photo.

Ellen

The photo in your link is ~not~ Carlos. He was Peruvian. That pic is a white dude.

When the Los Angeles Times did his obit story, they also used a similar picture of someone else. Carlos was satisfied to let those pics get endlessly repeated in the media simply by never correcting them, and they still do to this day long after he's dead.

In his view, deceit was a virtue worthy of aspiration, and he had cultivated it into a high art.

Greg

[moralist]

Only if you sow, so shall ye reap.

I've never seen the words "only if" associated with that saying. Did you read it somewhere that way or is that an expression of your own opinion? I'm fine either way.

Greg

[moralist]

Re the link in #36, I noticed this question and answer when glancing through the interview;

link

Q: What's the aim of you not allowing yourself to be photographed, having your voice recorded or making your biographical data known? Could this affect what you've achieved in your spiritual work, and if so how? Don't you think it would be useful for some sincere seekers of truth to know who you really are, as a way of corroborating that it is really possible to follow the path you proclaim?

A: With reference to photographs and personal data, the other three disciples of don Juan and myself follow his instructions. For a shaman like don Juan, the main idea behind refraining from giving personal data is very simple. It is imperative to leave aside what he called "personal history". To get away from the "me" is something extremely annoying and difficult. What shamans like don Juan seek is a state of fluidity where the personal "me" does not count. He believed that an absence of photographs and biographical data affects whomever enters into this field of action in a positive, though subliminal way. We are endlessly accustomed to using photographs, recordings and biographical data, all of which spring from the idea of personal importance. Don Juan said it was better not to know anything about a shaman; in this way, instead of encountering a person, one encounters an idea that can be sustained; the opposite of what happens in the everyday world where we are faced only with people who have numerous psychological problems but no ideas, all of these people filled to the brim with "me, me, me."

Ellen

Now imagine those words spoken by someone who looks and sounds like a latin Joe Pesci. That fits Carlos to a TEE. (lol!)

Greg

[Selene]

Did you read it somewhere that way or is that an expression of your own opinion?

Both, Very logical statement.

[moralist]

Jonathan,

Did you ever read any of Casteneda's Don Juan books? Casteneda was a hell of a story-teller.

I've read some of his work. I didn't find him to be a hell of a story-teller, but actually pretty dull, artless, and often downright tedious in style.

J

We sure react differently in that. I was quite entertained by his work, read at least the first four twice (I think there were others after that which I didn't read), remember various scenes, and think I'd enjoy reading the books again if I had time to do so.

Ellen

Same here. Regardless of his personal life, he was a good writer. Tens of millions of readers enjoyed his books, and we saw the six figure royalty check stubs to prove it.

Greg

[moralist]

Did you read it somewhere that way or is that an expression of your own opinion?

Both, Very logical statement.

Could you supply the link?

I'd like to see who wrote it

as well as the context.

Greg

[Selene]

Did you read it somewhere that way or is that an expression of your own opinion?

Both, Very logical statement.

Could you supply the link?

I'd like to see who wrote it

as well as the context.

Greg

I ran a search of the aphorism just to check spellings.

2) If you sow today, you cannot reap tomorrow. It takes time for your labor to bear fruit.

If you go to the home page, it is apparently some life changing program marketed by someone named Jim Staniport:

This Program Teaches You Life-changing Success Secrets Used by Many Top Achievers of Our Time

... and I'd like to put Sculptor3 into YOUR hands today. The results can be nothing short of miraculous, as you see desired changes manifest in your life, and see your own dreams come true, EFFORTLESSLY.

Those secrets are really the techniques of affirmation, Alph Brain Wave technology and visualization. I KNOW THEY WORK because I've used them successfully myself, for over 10 years now. And I went from struggling, to living a life I enjoy. Almost effortlessly. All because I learned how to use affirmations the right way.

http://www.affirmware.com.au/Sculptor-Private/as_ye_sow.html

[Ellen Stuttle]

According to Amazon:

link

Born in 1925 in Peru, anthropologist Carlos Castaneda wrote a total of 15 books, which sold 8 million copies worldwide and were published in 17 different languages. In his writing, Castaneda describes the teaching of Don Juan, a Yaqui sorcerer and shaman. His works helped define the 1960's and usher in the New Age movement. Even after his mysterious death in California in1998, his books continue to inspire and influence his many devoted fans.

(I'll post this so I don't lose it, then look to see what Amazon says about Chariots of the Gods?.)

(The Amazon link for Chariots gives neither sales figures nor number of languages translated into. High, and a bunch, I presume.)

Ellen

[moralist]

Did you read it somewhere that way or is that an expression of your own opinion?

Both, Very logical statement.

Could you supply the link?

I'd like to see who wrote it

as well as the context.

Greg

I ran a search of the aphorism just to check spellings.

2) If you sow today, you cannot reap tomorrow. It takes time for your labor to bear fruit.

If you go to the home page, it is apparently some life changing program marketed by someone named Jim Staniport:

This Program Teaches You Life-changing Success Secrets Used by Many Top Achievers of Our Time

... and I'd like to put Sculptor3 into YOUR hands today. The results can be nothing short of miraculous, as you see desired changes manifest in your life, and see your own dreams come true, EFFORTLESSLY.

Those secrets are really the techniques of affirmation, Alph Brain Wave technology and visualization. I KNOW THEY WORK because I've used them successfully myself, for over 10 years now. And I went from struggling, to living a life I enjoy. Almost effortlessly. All because I learned how to use affirmations the right way.

http://www.affirmware.com.au/Sculptor-Private/as_ye_sow.html

Thanks.

It was the "so shall ye" King James lingo, written as if it was a Bible verse that threw me off.

Greg

[Selene]

Thanks.

It was the "so shall ye" King James lingo, written as if it was a Bible verse that threw me off.

Greg

Understood.

I am no student of the Bible [Basic Instruction Before Leaving Eatth], I loved Azimov's Guide To The Old And New Testament [2 vols.].

A...

[Ellen Stuttle]

My wife's book, "Filming Castaneda", has more current pictures of Carlos and the gang.

Greg,

Is this your wife writing? Gaby Geuter, by name.

http://www.filmingcastaneda.com/5.html

[bold emphasis added]

Castaneda held a special place in my heart, the door to the wilderness of my soul, where the rules of the ordinary world do not apply. My partner and I secretly spied on Castaneda, the self-proclaimed sorcerer; we videotaped him and Drudged through his trash, to touch the intangible. Carlos never knew that the two of us had become outer guardians of the membrane surrounding the group. An unexplainable energetic connection allowed us to approach and witness, without getting noticed. And never divulged our secret endeavor until months after Castaneda death.

[....]

Clearing the hill, we are suddenly confronted by the dunes [...]. A dramatic death, alone, at the foot of a grandiose pyramid was just like Nuri, the spoiled child. Did you think you could join Carlos?

Carlos, her father by adoption, had died two weeks earlier, in April of 1998, from a liver disease, the unthinkable death of an ordinary man, a flaw a sorcerer could easily avoid, according to his boasting in class, and a far cry from the promised group jump into infinity. During the last months of his decline he hid his dying face in shame, even from the chosen women lovers. He did not know that I watched him secretly while he dragged his tired feet from the car into the house, all spryness gone. As death descended I, the sidewalk witness shared the sobering sight with only the few women that took care of him. Florinda, the blond ebullient author of three books, Taisha, the subdued but brilliant orator, Kylie, the steely-minded movement instructor, and Talia, the devoted director of his latest business venture. Within days of Castanedas inglorious death the women closed their bank accounts, gave their jewelry away, destroyed their credit cards and disappeared. Nobody has seen them since. The estate lawyer portents she has not been dispersing any shares to the missing women. In the official statements the witches are overseeing the workshops that are still held by the remaining disciples. From beyond the dunes?

Ellen