A simple, simple philosophy of Love and Appreciation.


For many, the art of making and keeping genuine relationships alive has become mysterious as the secret of the Pyramids. I’m speaking of romantic love and friendships. And reflecting on this modern malaise, I have developed a few simple ideas that I have decided—long ago--to put into practice.

In his book 'Taking Responsibility' Nathanial Branden wrote: “Romantic love is often attacked today by psychologists, sociologists, and anthropologists, who frequently scorn it as immature, illusory ideal. To such intellectuals, the idea that an intense emotional attachment could form on the basis of a lasting, fulfilling relationship is simply a neurotic product of the modern Western culture.”

So in my usual habit to be a contrarian to the pronouncements of modern intellectuals, I will assume that the reader grants the value of love and does not perceive it as “neurotic.” In that optimistic spirit, I would like to offer a few simple tidbits to consider when it comes to our relationship with those we report to love.

It is obvious; it is repeated again and again, yet so very few really practice it. I’m speaking of the art of listening. Everybody seems to believe in listening as long as it’s the other person who is doing it! Just sit back and watch what happens at lunch at work or when a group is out for dinner. One of the reasons so much of it so often seems a waste of time is that nobody is really listening to anybody else.

To see supposedly loving couples mislay the art of conversation or the ability to listen is just as disheartening to witness. A relationship, like anything else in life, needs to be nurtured and maintained. How often we make the mistake of taking the other person for granted, as if their love and devotion were now an “immutable law of nature” that can never be damaged or out-right destroyed.

I may be charged here as simply stating the obvious, but given the overwhelming evidence of negligence and ill-treatment of others whom we purportedly “love”--tells me it’s not being said enough. It proves that these relationships are a peripheral issue as opposed to a central focus.

Allied to listening is the increasingly rare skill of giving the other person one’s TOTAL ATTENTION. Our minds are so distracted by the myriad of things going on around us and inside us that most of the time we give our spouses and “friends” less than 10 per cent of ourselves. The people who have meant the most to me in life have always been those who, when they are with you, are with you 100 per cent.

Never was there a greater need than now for the wisdom of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber. Buber said there were two basic rules for interpersonal relationships:

1.Be direct. That is, avoid all game-playing, pretense, or hypocrisy. Be real. Honesty, after all, is a virtue.

2.Develop an “I-thou” relationship with others rather than an “I-It” By this he meant, always treat the other person as a person, and not as an object to be manipulated, dominated, used, or possessed. There is a dangerous tendency today to “THINGIFY” other people in order to exploit them—sexuality, financially, or politically.

I would like to affix another rule to Buber’s list: Don’t tell me—show me. This is usually considered a literary principle, but I think it is applicable here. It’s not enough to tell the people in our lives that we love them, [if we do indeed love them] it must be communicated. I remember one girlfriend of mine, who once said in reponse to my declarations of love, "You love me? Yeah? Prove it."

You heard it before: talk is cheap. We must show them that we love them. Don’t just tell them—SHOW them.

Finally, there’s caring. I believe true caring is becoming to be seen as “weak” or “Pollyannaish.” But there is nothing mushy or overly sentimental about this—whatever this cynical age we live in would have you think. It means simply wanting the very best for the other person—that person for whom it has been declared one cares for---and acting accordingly. It’s about preserving that which you claim to value. It’s about taking action.

It’s a simple matter of integrity.

***

Thank you, Victor, for sharing this - I really enjoyed and benefited from it.

Hi Fran,

Thanks for saying so. I figure with all the Big Brain things going on at OL, a few simple words of wisdom would help. I'm happy you benefited from it. Never under-estimate some of the simple home-grown philosophies. You come back now, ya heah?

Victor

Well said, Victor. And something that can never be said too often.

Judith

Judith,

Thank you. I must give credit to Angie for sparking this little post, as we have been chewing on this very subject recently, and so I tought I would share some thoughts that came about as a result. It takes female input for guys to clue in on this important stuff. We're still learning how to put the seat down.

Victor

Yeah, you're all still a bunch of Neanderthals and us women gotta pull ya out of it somehow. lol

But it looks like you're trying to pull me out from underneath the rock I reside at. I don't go out in public much.

We've definitely gone into heavy detail with this and still exploring much of it and organizing it as well as the aspects that destroy a relationship, why some make the same mistakes over and over again, what it means to be appreciated, why we choose not to lisen, and so on. But of course, there is still a lot to this but I'll post some of what we've talked about so far.

Appreciation is recognition. Appreciation is being grateful. Appreciation is saying thank you. Appreciation is recognition of shared values. Appreciation is wanting the best for your partner. Appreciation is "showing" acts of love; such as, wanting them to experience pleasure and happiness and to make their life easier. Appreciation is taking pride and joy in watching them succeed. Appreciation is recognizing those values in the other person and nurturing those values. Appreciation is praise of those values. Appreciation is supporting them in their decisions to keep those values and to work for those values. Appreciation is recognizing their accomplishments and achievements. Appreciation is recognizing individual and/or mutual discoveries.

But there are always questions that need to be asked and answered; such as, why do we choose not to listen? Selfishness? Worthiness of the other person and do you know their worth in relation to yourself? Are they Rational or Irrational? Do we not listen because of differences of values? Do we listen and give more of ourselves when we talk to those that share the same values? Do we listen more carefully and give them our undivided attention when we have more to benefit from them; ie, benefit such as intellectual stimulation?

Then there are the aspects that destroy a relationship such as controlling behavior, manipulation, game playing, taking what is not rightfully yours, force, not taking responsibility and the blame that is rightfully yours. There are many, many aspects of destruction I haven't listed that Victor and I have talked about. And if any of these are present to whatever degree in the relationship, the relationship is tainted and corrupted and will not flourish and survive.

It's a rarity to see these days a couple be it married or long term partnership where they've been together for 30 or 40 or 50 years. You so often see people who have been married numerous times.

And then of course, there is committment and working on the relationship when there are rifts. But what is to be tolerated and what is to not be tolerated in the partner you've chosen to share your life with and why?

I'm unfortunately drawing a blank now and don't want to go into all areas as I'll be here for days writing. But this is a partial of what Victor and I have been talking about. I'm sure there will be much continuation of this thread. But it's been quite interesting to explore this area and that Victor and I have been drawing our own conclusions and making our own discoveries based on our own lives and our own relationships. In order to have a successful relationship, we all just have to identify it and discover why for ourselves.

But it seems that quotes and excerpts have been barred for me and Victor when drawing our conclusions and making our discoveries and I've thoroughly enjoyed that. It's been quite a treat to say the least. We all have our own reasons for what we do and why we do it. We just have to name it/identify it and discover why for ourselves.

I also have to give credit/recognition to Victor for sparking all of this, our thoughts, our mutual discoveries so far. Thank you, Victor !!!

Angie

Angie,

You're welcome. I said it already, but I have no problem saying it again and out in the open: I enjoy our conversations very much and you are appreciated--greatly!

Victor

That makes two of us!


gw

Ah, how do you like that? I'm in the company of three lovely ladies, and Gary has to bud in!

Gary and Victor, thank you both so very much and both of you are so deeply appreciated and valued in my life. I greatly value our conversations and what I have to gain from knowing both of you. I'm grateful I've come to OL and that we've met here. I'm grateful for the friendship and it is a friendship that will be long lasting !!!!

Angie

Sorry Victor, I was trying to be your wingman!


And lovely ladies they are! And smart! And I bet they smell good too!!!



Victor, I just wanted to ditto your remarks about Angie.

As I am sure most here can tell, I hold her in the highest esteem. I have been studying her posts here for sometime now and while early on I did not understand all the complexities she was trying to get across, in private talks with her however, I have learned much and have realized that her positions and thinking and values are much the same as mine. She simply has the thinking and the proper tool for living down pat. I am still a bit scattered, but getting there. Basically she has taken a raw savage and gotten him to calm down and focus.

I hope that anyone who has the chance to talk to her does so or at least goes over her posts here and gains some very good insight into her process of thinking. I think she is wise beyond wise. And the fact that she came about all of this on her own, makes me respect her even more. (If that is possible!)

I can tell you this though. She is brutally honest and not timid in the least. She has gotten in my face more than once and I am a better man because of it! (More respect being heeped on) I don't call her Firecracker for nothing!


Thank you Angie for being my buddy!


And thank you Victor for starting this thread!


gw

Angie is very special. I'm going to marry her one day.

Goody!!!


The bridesmaids are all mine!!!!!



gw

Do'h.....LMAO....oh, my

You guys are too funny !!

Well, thank you very much for the wonderful thoughts that are directed at me, very sweet of both of you, definitely smiling right now and feelin' the love !!!

OY....guys for ya Thank you to both of you !!!

Angie

Victor =
Gary =

hehehehehehehehe !!!

Firecracker,






gw

I've been on (and am currently still on) vacation, so I haven't had a chance to reply for a while.

Angie, regarding some of the questions you posed above, I think it's easy early in a relationship to do the "right" things. We're at our best, and the other person is at his/her best, and somehow it all comes quite naturally. Later on, when "reality" sets in, it's all quite a bit harder, and requires self-discipline to act with kindness and consideration, and to listen when perhaps we're tired, or would rather read a book or play with the dog, or to be sympathetic when we think that our own day was in fact ten times harder than our partner's. I keep thinking about Nathaniel Branden's book "The Romantic Love Question and Answer Book", later republished as "What Love Asks of Us", in which he says that he would often do things that were kind or considerate, but inconsistently, and that his wife Devers said that he had to learn "the discipline of kindness". That kind of says it all.

Judith

Hi, Judith

I see where you are coming from. With the questions I asked above, I've already explored heavily by looking at my own marriage, etc., and identifying the what and whys of it. It's just I didn't and don't have much time to write everything I've discovered in my relationship. But when looking at my own relationship of 13 years (married 10 but together 13) very closely both introspectively on my part and extrospectively on my husband's part, I found much that was quite revealing. Even though my marriage has ended, I've learned quite a bit. I'm not going to go much into detail but will touch on some things. In my relationship, it very much is an O'ist relationship that is one sided on my part but he does also partake in just a couple O'ist aspects in the relationship. Interestingly enough, these aspects of the relationship that are typical of the values of O'ism are very peaceful and there is no work at keeping things going. It is still after 13 years very easy and natural.

For the most part, his values are very different from my own. For me, even after 13 years, I do not demand anything of him. If he's too tired to listen, then I will not force and stay persistent on him to listen to me. I respect his space. If he would much rather read a book and relax, then have at it. I will not make demands on him. This is what he wants to do. I do not drill him when he walks through the door after work. I don't think one person should "have to" or "require" the other person to learn something. Intellectually, there is very little in common. When he does talk about something that is irrational, I find myself not paying attention. But when he does offer conversation that makes sense and is grounded, I find myself paying much more attention to him, more engaged with him and listening.

When one person is "still" trading after 13 years together and is one sided, you get real tired of it. You get tired of always giving and giving and giving and being considerate when it is one sided. When I am constantly giving and being kind and considerate and it is not returned, I find myself doing less and less for him. I've stopped doing things because it was never returned. Why? My acts of kindness and consideration still to this day are taken for granted and is not appreciated and I never recieve a thank you. Even to this day after 13 years together when he does something for me which is not often, I still say thank you and do something for him in return. I do not mind. I very much appreciate it and will always return it.

I do not deny that the "honeymoon" period does wear off. But I find it very interesting after going through my own marriage with a fine tooth comb how much values really play a huge part in the relationship in particular the values that are based on survival and life and these are the areas of the relationship that are still going strong and come very natural even after 13 years. But the areas where there is a conflict of values there is much deterioration and there is much work at keeping it going.

Angie

I don't have a lot of good things to say about the whole "honeymoon period" thing. I used to buy into it, it seemed sensible, something to be expected. Well, for one thing, even if you go with it, and it happens (and, oh yes, at that point of understanding it surely will happen), it pales in comparison to what can come next as you go longer into the marriage; it ceases to matter.

That scenario for me: twice. I think on the second, we were both anticipatory of the "honeymoon period" and were ready to buckle in for the long haul.

Sounds like fucking big fun, doesn't it?

The honeymoon thing is a self-defeating strategy, albeit attractive logically, as if that means more than it does.

How it is with who I'm with now flies completely in the face of that, and no one's using blinders. We just don't believe in it because we don't feel it, and we're not going to start feeling it- we move in the other direction, a nice logarithmic curve going straight to the sky. We don't get a lot of naysayers because even people we don't know can see how we are together. This is the first time of this for both of us.

Example: A few weeks ago my roomate was playing a swanky gig at this lawyer's mansion- he opens up the whole place for two days and has this blowout. He's a personal injury lawyer, so the crowd includes his happy clients. Tres weird... Anyway, we got the invite there as guests, which was perfect because we could eat and drink free all day, hear a good band, and wander around an estate. It was sort of like crashing a party but you really weren't; we met the guy, who was just running around gladhanding and promoting.

There were these three kind of Baptist-looking nice church ladies (you know the kind...the fairly hip ones) sitting at a table, and they called us over- "Excuse us, but can we have a word with you?"

So we go over there, and they ask "How long have you been married?" We smiled, and told them we weren't, but had been seeing each other for about 6 months. That suprised them, and they said the thing was that they found it rare these days to see the way we were with each other- you know, just the regular affectionate, connected things a couple does when they're out- how they walk with each other, hold hands, dialogue, etc. They said they found it refreshing, and that in particular they saw a great lack of this kind of tenderness in younger folks' relationships.

We get that kind of thing a lot, it's very different than what we've experienced in our prior relationships- this one kinds of just shines all the time.

I don't think this supposed buckle-down and get real the honeymoon is over kind of thing holds any water for me. If you're blessed to be very right for each other, I do not believe it to be a mandatory thing. Much to the contrary.

What I'm saying, to be simple, is that I do believe this honeymoon period end thing happens, but that it doesn't have to happen, and sometimes, for sure, it will never happen.

best,
rde

All proper human living requires discipline. And people can be at their best at anytime in their lives, by choice.

The length of a relationship is irrelevent to acting properly. If one truly appreciates someone else they will integrate loving actions into their behavior, even if it is not a fair trade. Angie would appear to be acting properly even after 13 years.


Proper behavior can not and should not be forced on another person. It can only be put into action by yourself and can either be simply given by choice or traded for like behavior. Or it can be withheld. All actions coming from the individual.

Love and loving actions should be a free market.


gw

I think you gotta slap dames around a little, myself...



Michael

(ducking...)

I know a lot of couples live for the honeymoon.

I am sure it is great, I don't know, never had one. But my vision of what is proper in a relationship is seen as being - 'The old couple in the park who still hold hands'. The honeymoon is way past for them, but the love is still there and still strong.

Time is irrelevent to what love is because we are always living in the present and we are always in control of our behavior at that time, the here and now. It is our choice.

Love is more than a Honeymoon.

Love is holding hands with your favorite old geezer and enjoying every minute of it!



gw

"I never met a dame that didn't understand a slap in the face or a slug from a .45"

Humphrey Bogart

Oh, Victor, you're so cute when you get all studly and testosterone-licious.

Do you wear a smoking jacket? I'm shopping the resale shops for a vintage one myself!

You should see what goes on at my place, but then I'd have to kill you... Let's just say we don't slap 'em around, but there's an awful lot of butt-smacking and wrestling going on on a daily basis. Strong women, and all, you know...

rde
Traded his .45 for a Makarov 918 and some cash.

Rich,

I love those old black n' white flicks, shhhweetheart.

V

Trust me, if there was a way I could have a flickering neon "HOTEL" sign outside of my window, I would!

rde
yeah, shee?

Wow, so much to write about. I agree with Rich and the honeymoon period. The more I look at my own relationship it's quite interesting to look at the areas that are going strong and there is no work at it even after 13 years. These are the areas where there is a shared value and these are areas that are thriving and the honeymoon period is still present. But the areas where there is a conflict in values there's much deterioration and much work to keep it going. I've never been in a relationship with another O'ist so it is difficult for me to draw any conclusions in that regard. I can only project what it may be like based on how I am. Knowing how I am and what I value and what the relationship is like for John, it would be so refreshing if those same values, same virtues were a 2 way street. Oh, my god, I would absolutely love it. I would be extremely happy if it was.

The first 3 years of my relationship were just absolutely amazing. Everything about it was absolutely ideal for me. Even 3 years into it, it was still as if we had just met and there was no work at it. The "honeymoon period" was still going strong. But when we got married, things drastically changed. I really don't want to go into the details of my marriage out in public. I don't mind talking about some aspects of it but certain areas are very private. But after we got married, his actions heavily contradicted the first 3 years of who he seemed to be. This is when problems started. When I met him, our values were aligned. But after literally being married, it changed. It flew in the face of the first 3 years. This is when things started to deteriorate and the relationship had to be worked on to keep it going. But the person I was the first three years did not change. My actions and values stayed the same. I didn't mind doing stuff for him. I took great pleasure in it. I very much enjoyed it. It was something I was doing for him, even if it was something as small as taking his shoes off and pulling his socks away from his feet after getting home from work. But he did the same, trades, the first 3 years and the relationship was wonderful, both were very happy. We both very much were like kids together.

But I also cannot deny that the "newness" "honeymoon" period does wear off but it shouldn't become a "chore" and that you have to work on it. The evidence that's been presented before me tells me otherwise. I've had the opportunity to look at a relationship where part of it is an O'ist relationship and the other part is not. It's been quite revealing, oh, so very revealing. It speaks volumes on values and how important it is that each person shares those values that are based on life and survival. I would love to write more but I don't want to go much into my relationship out on a public forum. I don't mind writing tidbits here and there, just nothing major and in detail. So I am hesitant on writing certain aspects of it which I'm sure everyone here will understand.

Question:

What do you enjoy and appreciate the most about your parnter or that your partner does?

What do you not enjoy and not appreciate the most about your partner or that your partner does?


You know, what are your pet peeves and what do you cherish the most. I'm very curious to know what everyone will say.

Angie

Yeah, you better duck. Cast iron skillet will be flyin' through your screen when you least expect it. LOL So shame on you, Mike.

Oh thank you so much, Firecracker for asking a 'partner' guestion!

I just turned to my to look at my partner and ............................oh wait! That's right, I forgot!

I don't have one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you so much for rubbing my nose in that fact on a public forum!!!!!


And you call me evil.




Actually, what do I cherish? 1. Speaks their mind. 2. Can laugh. 3. Will try anything. Willing to experiment.


Pet peeve? 1. Well, it usually starts with them saying, "I'VE decided that WE are going to..........." 2. Doesn't care to know anything. Lacks curiosity. 3. Any Parasitic behavior.




Now if you will excuse me, I have an evening planned with Lauren Bacall. I need to be practicing my whistle!


gw

Gary,

My all time favorite line is:


"You know what your problem is?!!"


It really doesn't matter what follows after that.

Michael

There's so many things that I cherish but to name a few...

Cherish: Honesty, Self-Esteem, Independent Thinkers, Sense of Humor, not afraid to discover new things; ie, experimenting, Perseverence, Independence.

Pet peeves: Control freaks, button pushers, low self esteem, manipulators, looters and parasites. Men that leave the seat up and my ass falls in the damn toilet every time. Nothing like freezing cold water to hit your butt cheeks to really wake you up for a few hours. Grumpy, Grumpy I guess that one pretty much covers all men out there. LOL And also naggers

Mike, that was classic and laughing. I really enjoyed that one. hehehehehe !!! You know what your damn problem is blah, blah, blah.... By this time, men's eyes have glazed over and have stopped listening a long time ago. Nothing like a yackety, yackety, yack in your ear. Oh, the nagging of it all. I despise naggers. I guess I need to go up and put that in my pet peeve


Angie

Michael,

You know what your problem is?!!

You never put the damned toilet seat down!!


Your Dame
(who likes getting slapped around, but only when her butt's not wet)

Whew! So far so good!

None of the women have listed as a pet peeve - "Pees on toilet seat when it's down!"

I may be in the clear!







I agree Firecracker.

There are so many things to list. I think my list could go on and on and on...ad nauseum!

I think sooner or latter I might even add 'has big feet' to it!


Pet peeves are the same. I think I really need to add - "Has an Adams Apple" to my list.

I have not had very good luck with 'partners' sporting those.


Oh well.


gw

Major Pet Peeve: Procrastinators

Oh, so don't get me started on this one. Don't wait to the last minute and keep putting whatever off. It will usually come up and bite you in the ass if you wait too damn long. My philosophy, get it done as soon as possible and/or as soon as time permits. One less thing you have to worry about. If you have too many things to do, make a list, prioritize to what should be done first and start checking them off as you go. Before you know it, that list will be tiny and no pressure to hurry up and get it done.

Some of the traits I find myself valuing in people in general:

Kindness, honesty, earnestness, dignity, patience. They may sound simple, but in fact they reflect a level of personal development that is increasingly rare. When I was in my early twenties I thought that intelligence was everything. Now, after having spent the last twenty years working pretty much exclusively with highly intelligent people, I've come to value these traits above intelligence. I have to say that I don't know a single person today who exhibits them consistently. I may know two or three people who almost meet the description. Earnestness in particular is quite rare these days; cynicism is in, and it takes rare courage to be earnest in today's culture.

Assertiveness is another valuable character trait. Unassertive people drive me crazy!

Moral courage. It seems like a simple thing to say what one thinks and feels and wants and believes, but I encounter people all the time who can't do something this simple. I like having company when I call things by their right names and say that the emperor is naked. It gets wearisome when I get quiet little private e-mails from people who say, "For what it's worth, I agree with you." I think to myself, "Why didn't you speak up in public, when it counted?"

Judith

Judith, your post is a beautiful one, and one with which I am in full agreement. Except that I'm happy to say
that I do know some people -- only a very few -- who do exhibit these traits consistently.

Barbara

During the past two years I've been having all kinds of mid-life adventures. One of them centers around the realization that it really is important to have these kinds of people around me, and making it a high priority to find such people and nurture relationships with them when I do find them. Perfection isn't necessary -- "almost" is good enough!

Judith

I have come to the conclusion that I knew virtually nothing about how to be with a woman until this year. That is quite a statement, considering that I was married twice, once for nearly twenty years and the second for 9. There were moments, lots of them, really. Little glimpses and flashes. But there were so many mistakes, by all parties. No one really, in the end, knew what they were doing. Not enough so to be sufficiently tender.

Often, I think it was a matter of close but no cigar. The match. Now, who I am with... at first there were little pieces of me that thought something was wrong because it was so right- it couldn't possibly be so! I was conditioned to accepting the false premise that there would always be significant, built-in problems.

That's the biggest fallacy I ever bought into in my life. It is not a mandatory prerequisite. Life, for me, is too precious and short to take something that important (maybe the most important) in your life and assume it is going to be some kind of dismal work project. Quite frankly, fuck that.

Clearly, my perspective is entirely different now, as far as this goes. I have never savored every single moment as I do now, when I'm with her. The "value" just shines right out. Not value, really, it's real romantic love.

r
Hmmm...I gotta make Ciro's mussels recipe for our romantic dinner for two tonite!