Good Day to one and all!

Hi, My name is Amy and I am pleased to be a "noob" here. I have spent a small bit of time wandering the posts and am eager to learn more, as well as meet you all.

A bit about my journey thus far:

Ironically enough, I was introduced to O'ism through a series of fantasy novels. Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series to be exact. While I have never been a fantasy reader persay, the irony comes full circle I assure you. I was given Wizard's First Rule as a baby shower gift. Having a colicy son, it stayed on the shelf for 4 months before I even picked it up. After I was finally afforded some "quiet time" I opened the book...and a new chapter in my life.

Mr. Goodkind is strongly influenced by Ayn Rand. His "wizard rules" are based on the foundations of O'ism. I had joined one of his sites on line, and kept reading about an influencial author and a certain title of Atlas Shrugged. Needless to say I have since thanked Mr. Goodkind for the start into my new life.

I picked up her masterpiece and was immediately smitten. I breezed through her pages and ideals so quickly (4 days of intense reading) that I re-read it immediately fearing I had missed some details; then went and purchased it as well as Fountainhead.

My new mantra was "check my premise" . I had a bit of an epiphany during those pages. Mr. Goodkind reminded me how much I enjoyed learning...and Ayn Rand solidified and expanded the concept. I enjoy learning....new discovery.....life to be lived! I was amazed that I had forgotten the most important concept of life....living it.

Now the nitty gritty:

During all this self-exploration I have two wonderful children, that had yet to be baptised. I was raised with a Roman Catholic upbringing. I wanted (as all good Catholics/sheep do) to have my children baptised within my faith. My husband's only reccomendation was that I learn more about my faith. (He had been through perochial schools but not as a Catholic and had a really bad taste in his mouth for Catholicism). Soooo, I did. I checked my premise!...I studied my beliefs and why I believed.....why my parents believed....why my grandparents and so-on. Needless to say, because here I am 5 yrs later, with children that are not baptised, at what I discovered....I didn't like. This was then added to the fact that the church did not "approve" of the people I chose as "Godparents". Apparently the church's dogmatic laws know more than I when it comes to raising my kids. This didn't take into account that I could trip on my supposedly Godparents and not know them (my parents followed the letter of the law and chose someone from the Church) where as I chose my best friends of twenty-five years that will go to the grave with me. /shrugs

The church had no answer for me besides ...."because its law" which in fact is NO ANSWER at all. I appealed through the arch-diocese (sp?) and still got a resounding "NO"...they continued to explain how I could have a "stand-in" Catholic for ceremonial purposes. WHAT?!? ok...so here the church was telling me that I could lie to God for ceremony...for their ceremony and to adhere to their "canon" laws.....I say WTF? (sorry for the implied expletive), but how contradictory can you get?

So this lead me further into my searching....The more I learned....the more I found my true identity and why it was ok to continue without the cloud of guilt following me everywhere.

Guilt, by far was/is the hardest of all for me to shed. Specifically "family guilt". I identified with Reardon strongly for this reason. It was if when he finally got it....he stood up from the pages and said "Amy, re-read this part....it is you within a different context!" So yeah, the identification was resounding for me.

Looking to the future:

I have since learned that spirituality has nothing to do with religion. It comes from life and living life to its fullest extent. I no longer take anything for granted and check my premise often. While I don't neccessarily consider myself an O'ist, its closer than any other lable atm(if I must label). I also know for a fact, that it is a continual, perpetual exisitence; meaning, that I will never stop learning.....never give in again to "acceptence". Considering at what I have read here thus far, this concept is re-affirmed. I am relatively new on my journey, in comparison to some of the folks here, but it is a path I am eager to continue.

I am not familiar w/ the Brandens beyond the brief chapter in "Ayn Rand's- A Sense of Life", but am looking forward to reading their works. This is one of the main reasons I joined here, to expose myself to the undiscovered. I am just now "dipping my toes into the waters" compared to the life-long journeys you people have been undergoing. I look forward to exchanging thoughts, ideas and perspectives.

Another area of this board has peaked my interests: The parenting forum. I will dapple in there I am sure. I am trying to find a balance in raising my children...but more to come of that later.


To complete the "irony circle" is the base that a fantasy writer lead me to reason.

I have since had the honor of meeting Mr. Goodkind and have learned that while he doesn't consider himself to be a "fantasy author" and abhors the implications that that title resonates, he gracefully explains that the medium is all-encompassing. He would prefer being labeled as a "novelist" instead of within a specific genre, but due to the context of his novels....it is what it is. A is A.

To sum up:

I am happy I stumbled into this lil' world. I look forward to getting to know all of you further and am eager to exchange thoughts and ideas. My brief explanation is just a touch of the how's and why's I got here. I have an open mind, and am easy going. Shy...is not now nor has ever been a word I would use to describe myself. I am open to emails, board posting or chatting on IM's. Any questions...don't hesitate...any complaints...please notify....any suggestions....gladly accepted! I am the epitomy of a "work in progress" I am searching continually to be the best I can be. Constantly striving for new insights and new discoveries that will help shape and mold the person I want to be and know I can be.

~Amy

Just time to say hi, Amy.

I too was raised Roman Catholic. There were some good things about it. Also, my folks were not very religious and became more and more non-observant.

Amy,

I enjoyed your post very much. I'm going to pick up something by Terry Goodkind and have a look. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Truth ]

"Any questions...don't hesitate...any complaints...please notify....any suggestions....gladly accepted!"

I noticed you live in Virginia. Now, I'm suffering from "Amy envy" because you live very close [much closer than 3000 miles] to the great Ciro D'Agostino [ http://cirosnypizza.homestead.com/ ]. From all accounts Ciro is a great cook. And also very wise.

Oh, my suggestion is: go eat at Ciro's place!

Best of luck to you.

Mike Erickson

Forewarning on Wiki....Currently has been under "nay-sayer" wars. From what I've read here thus far you folks are familiar with some of the "intollerant ones" out there. A friend of mine is desparately trying to correct/edit and monitor the "project" for Sword of Truth series.




Thanks...I'll try to check it out. Virginia is beautiful. We had a spectacular autumn. I've only recently moved here...well June and I have the unfortunate issue of only having dial-up available to my area.

Hi Amy,

Welcome to OL. I’m the resident caricature artist and sometimes trouble maker. No worries, I'm very friendly--to the newbies. Hee-hee. I found your journey an interesting story. I was intrigued where you start to examine and question the catholic dogma and I’m curious as to where you stand now on the whole question of religion and god? Do tell more. Don’t be shy.

Victor

Amy,

A very warm welcome to OL.

I have 3 Terry Goodkind Novels, but I haven't read them yet. Here is a recent article at The Atlas Society on his work:

The Randian Fantasies of Terry Goodkind

I am a seeker also, as I believe most of the regulars here on OL are. After many years of reading Rand, I find that the questioning and fascination with the world never stops, even when it extends to questioning the things she wrote.

You have a precious gift of nature, your independent mind. We all do. The people I really like are those who hold this priceless part of themselves as their highest method and authority for discovering the world, and who refuse to let others do their thinking for them. Give me a person who disagrees with me but thinks for himself any day over one who agrees but doesn't, even if he can quote Rand chapter and verse by heart. That is why you will find here both Objectivists and some who are not Objectivists. Most all are Objectivism-friendly, though.

You will find dogmatic people in Objectivism, but they are easy to spot. They are usually pretty rude. That's not a hard and fast rule, but it is useful as a sign.

I do hope you enjoy yourself here. Your come across in your initial post as having a first-hand mind.

Michael

LOL, I have indeed seen the article, and I had the opportunity to meet/speak with Bill Perry the author of the article. He now frequents(?) the site that I spoke about, that has been a main stepping stone to here.
If any are interested TG.Net. It is a site that is also very "family" like. Mr. Goodkind is a dear friend of the owner.
His novels are both enjoying and thought provoking IMHO. I have been a fan of his for five years now, have had the great honor of meeting him....beyond the normal "book signing experience". The series runs 10 novels currently with the final book due 2007-08. If you have any questions concerning the series/author....if I don't know the answer...I can certainly find out "from the horse's mouth" so to speak.




Thank you! From what I have delved into thus far, I have no worries. I have just begun "chipping this iceburg" of threads and am anticipating some great exchanges. I give a small disclaimer (due to the content/extent of some of these posts) that I am by far no rocket scientist here . I love to learn and there are particular topics stated with such ease here, that it is almost intimidating ie: Quantum Physics, causuality etc. I feel quite like a "kid in a candy shoppe" thus far. There is too much I want to learn about, I have yet to decide where to start first . Overwhelming comes to mind....but its the best kind of being overwhelmed.


Victor-

In response to you-

I have "given up the fairytale" if thats what you are looking for. I questioned many things concerning the church and God while growing up. Some of these stemmed from being born into a free society and being female in reference to the church. My interest grew when I was suddenly responsible for two additional souls in this world. My first summation can be read here (sorry too lazy to retype it all).
I am currently still of the same mind as then but with hopefully a litlle more of "a clue" If that doesn't clarify enough, let me know...I'd enjoy discussing it further.


~Amy~

Thanks Amy, I read the post you linked with great interest. I can see that you use the word ‘god’ in an allegorical manner—a symbolic use of the word to describe human values, but there is also a great hesitation to abandon the concept in its supernatural formulation—or so I think. Now don’t get me wrong: I’m not here to reprehend you as can be expected from some Objectivist sites. I merely find that interesting. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I have been an atheist way before I read Rand--even since I was 14 in fact--although I do find some interesting views from her as found in Galt’s speech. I pretty much did my own thinking on the matter and I gradually came to disbelief. But it was George H Smith’s Atheism: The Case Against God that forever killed off God—in whatever usage of the word for me.

In regards to the church’s teachings: I find it very odd that the Churches—particularly the Roman Catholic church and the most orthodox Protestant groups—have always seemed almost obsessed with sex and sexual matters when Jesus himself had so little to say on the topic. He has left no specific wisdom on such matters as abortion, contraception, artificial insemination, or even premarital sex. Yet the Church leaders give the impression he spoke of little else.

For the most part, I find the teachings of the church abhorrent. When it comes to their treatment and views about women...there are no words to describe what I think.

Victor

If you are referencing my comment about "godliness" Then I would say values...yes; additionally, our "highest potential". I would dare say to compare it w/ Ayn Rand's "The ideal man"

It was with great hesitation, that I abandoned everything I knew/thought to be true. My first reaction to AS was I felt I had finally been let in on a big secret. My identification w/ Reardon was astounding.




Will look into that one...thanks



Maybe it was the differences in the parish- That was never so much of an issue, at least never more than I expected, but the sacrificing and suffering never equated with spirituality for me.

Hi Amy.

Welcome to Objectivist Living. We're glad to have you here. I always like to see others moms hanging out here. I have two kids myself (three if you count Michael )

I know if you come from a religious family and there can be a lot of pressure as far as how to raise you kids. I've been an agnostic since I was a teenager and got off the fence a few years ago after reading George Smith's book. My kids are both teenagers now, but I was married into an Irish Catholic family for ten years and one of my many former brother-in-laws is a Catholic priest, so my kids have been baptized. I've been a single mom for about 8.5 years and since my divorce, they have been raised without religion. They have very little contact with their father and don't even know their godparents. I don't believe it takes a community or a church to raise a child. We certainly don't religion to be moral or happy. If they become religious later in their lives it will be because they chose it on their own, not because they were spoon-fed it from birth. I want my kids to grow up to be independent thinkers.

Anyway, I am not too familiar with Terry Goodkind yet, although I'd like to check him out sometime. It would be great if you would post the wizard rules up in the library. I'm curious now as to the parallels with Objectivist philosophy. That sounds really interesting. Are his books anything like Harry Potter? Are they good for kids?

Kat

Hi Amy,

I've only found this forum less than a week ago myself, but I wanted to say 'hi' and mention that I think you'll like the attitudes here, as compared with some of the other Objectivist forums out there.

I too have heard of Terry Goodkind and although I'm not into fantasy novels as such, did peruse his web site to see what sort of stories he'd written. I'm glad to see that you were able to find this philosophy through rather unconventional means. That means there's hope that we can reach a lot more people.

I've been into Objectivism for over 40 years. I see that I have the first issue, volume 1, number 1 of the Ayn Rand Letter, published in 1962. So it has been a while! Lots of gold in them back issues, and I'm starting to read them again.

I came from a Christian Science background. Why, I even had my own 'glow in the dark crucifix' in the bedroom for many years. How about that? But like so many others who's curiousity ran up against the wall of silence of the church elders, I became suspicious. Nowadays, the rotten core of the Catholic Church is becoming more and more exposed, with all these priests raping young boys and what-not. That news was like the final confirmation that the whole system was corrupt through and through. Fortunately after Sunday School, my parents were too poor to send me to parochial school, so I went to public school after that. My father wanted to be a minister and was studying for the ministry, but was weak on geography and didn't make the entrance, which was a blessing in disguise. Eventually, a friend of the family introduced us all to Objectivism and it changed our lives forever.

I read most of Ayn Rand's books in the 1960s. I understood them so well back then. Everything made sense. I need to read them all again and I'm starting to do that this winter. There are numerous answers to questions that I had, some of which are in the old newsletters that Rand published, and some in the books and essays that she and Nathaniel Branden wrote. I have Branden's entire lecture on Romantic Love on LP records to this day. I hope one day to sit down with my wife and listen to them, although my wife is not really into this philosophy stuff. But she sees me reading at night, so she knows I'm trying to work on self-improvement.

Well, just wanted to say 'hi' and that I hope you find the answers you're looking for as well as have a good time and meet interesting people who will challenge your thought processes.

Hi Amy,

Welcome to OL. I think you'll like it here. There's a wonderful variety of independent thinkers here, some O'ists and others not, but can still offer different perspectives on an issue and can be quite invigorating to see and fun to interact with them. As you've posted, religion was a focal point in your life. I'm not familiar with religion as I rejected it when I was very young so it would be difficult for me to delve deep into this issue about who was who and so on. God was rarely brought up in my home, if ever. But my parents told us that it was our choice if we wanted to pursue it or not. I chose not to pursue it as I did not like it for many reasons whereas my sister did. In many many ways, I am grateful that I rejected it and never formed a belief in a god in any form. I am happy to hear that you are on that same road.

I'm also a single mom to an absolutely wonderful son who is six !! Of course, there hasn't been any indoctrination of religion into his life so he is being raised without it. If he chooses when he gets older to pursue it, that will be his choice.

I wholeheartedly agree that guilt is the most difficult destructive emotion to shed as is pity, especially when it comes to family members. It is definitely not easy to overcome those but I will tell you it is possible to overcome because I did. Wow...thinking about it now, it's definitely not easy but I will say happily that it is possible !! I hope this is an aspect that you also can overcome as you are doing the same with religion. But at any rate, welcome. I think you'll enjoy being here.


Angie

Amy, welcome to OL. This is a very friendly corner of the Objectivist world, and there are some fine folks here.

I also broke away from a strict fundamentalist Christian background, and I know how hard it is to break family tradition. Yours is an independent mind.

-Ross Barlow.

Hi Amy. Welcome to OL. I look forward to seeing your perspective on things, especially your experiences and thoughts about raising your children. I have two. My son will turn 7 in 3 weeks and my daughter is 4.

I find raising children without using the traditional tools of intimidation and guilt (which I believe are tools implicitly encouraged by many religions) creates its own set of challenges. Using intimidation and guilt is an attempt to bypass a child's will and judgement to get them to be compliant. Using objective standards, rational persuasion, and rational consequences tends to leave the child's will, judgement, and motives in his/her own sovereign possession. On the downside you are left dealing with very strong willed (assuming you believe in a "will"), intelligent kids who can be great when they are well rested and rational but are terrors when they are tired, cranky, and hold as their single purpose in life, defying the will of their parents. I wonder if you know what I am talking about? Of course, the payback is when your children face the world as strong willed and intelligent teenagers or adults. The journey can be interesting and fun. And, of course, the learning never ends.

A quick question: is Amy your full name or a shortening/nickname? My daughter is Amelia. We sometimes call her Amy.

Another quick question: I gather you have a 5 year old. How old is the other one?

Paul

Amy; Let me join in the welcome. You sound interesting. I live in Washington DC. There are events in DC. Have you ever been to Cato Institute? Cato has events throughtout the year and there are people there who admire and like Ayn Rand. Once again welcome!

WOW!

Warm welcome indeed! Thanks to one and all-

Lots to reply to- I will do my best.

Kat-

First off- I'm guessing it is primarily you, and Michael I should be thanking, for providing such a welcoming and open MB. It seems both eclectic and well presented, which demonstrates the caliber of folks you draw to it.

I agree with your comments on raising children- It will definately be a challange while living in the "Bible-belt". One of the main forums that caught my eye here was the "parenting". This is exactly what I was looking for. Another part of AS that was key for me was from "the woman who owned the bakery"- when speaking to Dagney in Galt's Gulch, "They represent my particular career....They're the profession I've chosen to practice.....I came here in order to bring up my sons as human beings....."

Now I just have to figure out exactly how to do that.

During my discoveries, I just realized there was nothing the church could offer that I could not provide. I will introduce them to the concept, and have (though reluctantly and usually with the precedent of "some people believe....") if they ever decide its for them, then I will support it....Its their life and they will decide, but an informed decision. I feel this so strongly that something as simple as piercing my daughter's ears I have not done. Its her body and that will be her decision...yes I think its cute, but its not for me to decide, she may not want it, doubtful, but there is a chance...and its her body.

As far as Terry Goodkind novels go- no I would not reccommend it for children. There are explicit scenes that have even turned some adults off. There are torture scenes that border, what have some called masochistic. It is a small but significant part of the storyline. Mr. Goodkind was demonstrating an extreme example, but the "haters of Goodkind" have blown it out of proportion. It is a mature young adult series IMHO.

and yes, I will happily post the rules. I know I sound nothing short of a Goodkind cheerleader, but in essence his writings lead to the start of a life altering change for me. I have also had the priviledge to do some "work" for the site I mentioned. To clarify I am NOT a troller...lol...I came here to advance my understanding of what he introduced.

Mark-

HI back! I am very happy to have found this place....especially because you were not the first to warn me of "other O'ists" sites. I am just now starting what you have had 40 yrs to extrapulate on, I am eager to hear yours as well as other opinions on things. I *wish* I had been introduced to O'ism earlier in life. Not that I regret any choices I have made, but there were times in my life where I could have used it, and not let life get me down but to embrace it fully. It's more of the "attitude" I wish I had embraced...if that makes sense.

I am hunting down the various writings of AR, the ones I have read thus far are : Anthem, AS, Fountainhead, We the Living, , I have started The Romantic Manifesto but just started it.
LOL....I am almost embarrassed to say I had never heard of NB until recently through "AR- A Sense of Life"...lol....not the most favorable, but I take that with a grain of salt. It wasn't unfavorable and the fact that AR was obviously attracted to his intelligence says an enormous amount for him IMO. I look forward to reading some of his works.

My husband also is "not into the philosophy scene" He will discuss various points I may raise in conversation so thats a start...especially for my lil' "sports junkie" ...though...lol...there are times when he admits "I hurt his brain".

CNA-

Its kinda funny....I think your "Looking for a real life John Galt" was one of the first non-philosophy threads I came across. You described yourself as shy...and not a MB poster, then I looked at your post count and chuckled...then I stumbled into your love affair confession with Victor my how times change! He jokingly stated how he was the one, and damned if it wasn't true! It tickled me. I guess he answered all the questions right.

My family was/is my hardest struggle. I have yet to "come out" entirely. To make a very long story short- My parents and family are devout Catholics. My parents currently have very poor health. They would see my change in life (ie; no longer believing in God) as their personal failure. While I don't deny any direct question, I have yet to volunteer the info either. Another issue I would like to overcome, but this could truly hinder them more than help me which I wonder if its worth it. More on that later-

~I'll finish in a bit~...KIDS

Amy wrote:



Hi Amy,

I agree that I do have quite a few posts now...LOL Believe it or not, I am shy; that is, until I am comfortable with the people I am with. I am definitely comfortable with the group of people here now But I have to admit since running into Victor my posting has picked up quite a bit, especially since he encourages it sometimes because we have many convos privately about philosophy, past experiences, and so on. He is still encouraging me to post on some threads such as the Art: Who needs it thread but have decided not to for a few reasons. When first coming here, I posted some but not a whole lot. I ran into a few here and started talking privately but still didn't post much. But Victor is the one who has really done it to me....hehehehehehe

Yeah, I so have to laugh at that too because he did state that he was the one and damned if it wasn't true !!! Yes, times have definitely changed, Girl, no doubting that. Wow. As to the four questions though, no one has yet given me the correct answers to the last 2, although I have told a few what the last 2 answers are. When I told them, most were like, oh, okay, I see now and they understand, especially after telling them about my life, my past, my family, etc., in private. I am reluctant to post some things about my past for obvious reasons but I do not mind talking about it in private. Privately is where a great majority of the philosophy is talked about. Girl, I'll tell you this, family is the greatest challenge to overcome and is not easy by any means. If you can do it with your family, you can do it with anyone, strangers, etc. Family is brutally difficult but it is possible. But the huge thing with family is identifying how they are, what they are capable of or have done already and why, and so on, and not denying what it is you are seeing in them which can be very difficult to accept because they are family and are the ones who claim to love you but nevertheless you have to accept it for what it is. Anyway, don't want to get into all this now but maybe later.

I'm glad you're here. I have no doubt that you will add much to OL.


Angie

Sorry for the interruption the children insisted on being fed

CNA to briefly finish up-

I have not kept my family completely in the dark either. My sister and mother both have been invaluable during "my quest". My opinion is that they know I have been questioning religion for years, what they may or may not know is the indifference to God. I have revealed quite a bit, but never came out and said spefically. I know this is not being true to myself, but the above mentioned details are my reasoning for my parents. My sisters and other members in the family...I have no issue with them knowing...I have at least shed that part of my guilt....but have not volunteered the info because, as in any family, it would instantaniously get back to my folks. I know....its an issue I am working on.

Ross-

Thanks and HI! Redundancy prohibits me from responding more .

Paul-



ROFLMAO- Do I know?!?! Oh the stories we can share What I am desparately trying to do is to not fall back into the traditions of threat, intimidation and guilt. Again one of the reasons I was keen on the parenting forum...I know I need help or a better understanding in this arena. I am also undergoing "the great Santa" debate. I am struggling with the justification of essentially lying to my kids, but to deny them the enjoyment of being children when they are children is a tough call IMHO.

Amy is my full name. Amy Dominique **** ***** to be exact!

My daughter is 5 yrs and started kindergarten this year. My son is 3 and "troublicious" is my nick for him

Chris-

Thanks again...and No I have never been...never heard of...but am interested! I live west of Fredericksburg, about an hour to hour & a half away from the city. I grew up in MD, lived in Delaware and now Va...so call me a "Delmarva" kind-a-gal! My folks lived in DC for 12 some yrs before retiring in Ohio...retiring in Ohio...who does that!?! LOL ...they are good peeps, I actually picked up both Anthem and We the Living up from their library. I just can't believe they read them . I told Dad for xmas that I was going to get him the audio of Atlas Shrugged, I though he needed a refresher course . especially since he had been President of the Railway Association

~Whew~
I think I replied to all! ...lol..I thinks it great! Thank you all so much for the warm welcomes.

Amy wrote:



oh, Honey, please don't kick them when they're down already, if they are in poor health, etc. That would be just straight out messed up. I never kicked my parents when they were down and out, all due to their own choices and actions, what they were trying to make me believe, and so on. I ultimately left but I never kicked them when they were down. It was and is called Justice.

Angie

Amy, I also wanted to say this but totally slipped my mind when I last posted. All that matters is that YOU are going through it. Family, friends, etc., really do not need to know what is happening to YOU nor the details of it. It all becomes very very clear the more you learn about yourself, what you do and why you are doing it. When going through it myself when I was younger, I rarely talked about it as it was none of their business. But on the rare ocassion that I did, I was very selective on what I said for many many reasons. Girl, all that matters is that it is happening to YOU. All others, it really isn't important unless you find some value that is beneficial to you for doing so.

Angie

Amy

Angie didn’t find a real life John Gult, not exactly--I’m more like a Howard Rorke type…with a few jagged edges. That’s not bad at at all, cosidering that for every single woman out there—you have a dozen Peter Keatings, Ellsworth Tooheys and James Taggarts for them.

Angie is my Dagney though.

-Victor-

Better yet, Victor is a good combo of Galt and Roarke. He may not agree with the Galt deal and identifies more with Roarke but I see a little bit of both in him !!! I would say that I have totally scored and hit the jackpot with him. I've known many people in my life, both men and women, and he towers above them all in so many ways. When getting to know him privately, it became abundantly clear who he is, how much we identify with each other on many levels. There is so much to him outside of what is seen on OL and this is where he stands above the rest. He is definitely my baby !!!

Well I think if you had the initial impression that Objectivist people were "strict" and "intolerant" of people who were less than strictly "orthodox" Objectivists, you'll find this place a refreshing relief. My late mother
was one of the intolerant Objectivists. I can remember having dinner at their place a few times when my father would bring a guest home from work. Usually that guest was religious to some degree due to background, and my mother would always begin probing. When she'd find out about a person's religious thinking, she'd do her darnedest to "convert" him to Reason. If that didn't work (and I can recall no instance where it did), she'd start procelitizing in more and more ascerbic ways, until it was almost a shouting match. At least once, I can remember the guest getting up in the middle of dinner and leaving. That's why we never had many friends. Dad was a bit more "liberal" and made friends easily.

I should also note about mom that she was writing a book about Jesus and the Stoics, had spent 8 years studying the Dead Sea Scrolls and other writings from early Greek philosophy and was about to release a book that would be a major step in the understanding of who Jesus was. That never happend. It would have been interesting to see how it could have turned out if she had lived long enough to complete it.

I've had over 40 yeras to digest it. In my early years, I was rabidly crusading the Objectivist way, and that's probably why I have little to no friends today. But as the years went buy, after my mom's death, I began meeting my dad at a diner daily and discussing ideas that were outside the realm of Objectivism. We decided to not to close our minds to any new information about "eternality" (reincarnation) or the existence of some intelligence that could create a universe so organized that the laws work in so predictable a manner. While I reject the Church's image of God as a Holy Ghost of Jesus' father smiling down on us from "Heaven", I do believe in the possibility that there is some inate intelligence at work and that things did not come about entirely randomly. In this regard, Objectivism seems cut & dried and oversimplified about God, simply holding the position that if you can't perceive it with your sense, then it does not exist. What if there are forms of energy we cannot measure yet? 300 years ago, no one knew electricity existed because we could not measure or perceive it. Now look at us today.

In regard to your search for knowledge in Objectivism, another very important writer is Dr. Leonard Peikoff. He is the intellectual heir to Ayn Rand and is her official spokesman. He is doing a series of lectures now on his "DIM Hypothesis" which stands for Disintigration, Integration, Misintegration. It seeks to explain events in the world from the viewpoint of this tricotomy. Another book I highly recommend is "The Ominous Parallels" as it predicts what will happen in the US, based on philosophical premises that are present here and in Nazi Germany. Branden also wrote many good books. I have several of his lectures on LP records from the 1960s. He and Rand had a grave disagreement, a parting of ways in 1968. You will find that the general angle of people here is more in favor of Branden than Rand. Some here seem to think Peikoff is strange, while I'm a defender of Rand and Peikoff (probably much to the chagrin of forum VIP Barbara Branden). I am probably one of the few people on this forum that have been with the movement for most of it's existence and I have nearly all of the early publications and reference materials that I've saved since 1962. My perspective will differ from some others here as a result.

I myself married a Catholic girl from the Philippines. I was afraid of dying alone, and started to reach out beyond US borders, having learned something about the nonjudgemental quality of Asian women. Filipinos are especially "blind" about age and looks. That's why you see so many of us potbellied, bald old men with young Filipinas. Although I ocassionly got strangers referring to my wife as "daughter", but that diminished after we had our first child. Some people just look at us strangely now. "Pooey" to them.

This is one of the more engaging forums out there. In fact, I am having a pretty good time here and feel more relaxed about discussing my ideas on the creation of the universe without fear of being ostracized. That said, I follow Objectivist morality and political thinking closely and agree with it completely. I abhore all existing governments, taxes, conscription, censorship (FCC), regulation of business to the extreme that it is and tax on free trade. Taxes are my #1 blight that has done more damage to my parents and to my own life, so it is the #1 issue you'll see me ranting about.

Welcome to the forum!

Cato has a web site. Their events are usually at noon. TAS hopefully will have events. Their last event was the 100th birthday for Ayn Rand at the Library of Congress. I hope there will be an event for the 50th birthday for Atlas Shrugged.

Hi, Amy --

Welcome. I got here late, so I don't have much to add, other than to second the recommendations for George Smith's book "Atheism: The Case Against God". I read that after I became an atheist but before I read Rand, and it really confirmed and cemented my relatively new beliefs.

Judith

Mark-

As for the strict and rigid, I had encountered some of that on TG.net, to my delight and surprise then when I met the individual he was nothing like how he came across on the boards. I was initially intimidated and learned a valuable lesson with him. I learned it was simply his convictions that came across so strongly. I have never been one to be intimidated easily; but I also know when I am out of my league. I have never studied physics, quantum or any other kind. My interest in science has developed in the latter yrs. I hope you are all tolerant enough to work through my ignorance. I'm not asking for a handout of kowledge...I'll do my own homework, I may have the occasional question or two.

Dr. Leonard Peikoff, I have heard of, but only in assocoiation w/ Rand. I am working through her writings before delving into others. "Her intellectual heir" has always impressed me. I have an open mind.....I am absorbent as the perverbial sponge but in the end rely on my own judgement.

Chris- Thanks I'll check into it.

Judith- ~waves~ ~~jots down title for list~~...Hi and thanks

Victor & CNA...you two positively gush

~Amy~

Mark,

In the interest of precision, Rand never once declared Peikoff to be her intellectual heir (although she did declare this about Nathaniel Branden in the early days, withdrawing it after the break). What she did do was bequeath her copyrights to Peikoff, endorse his book The Ominous Parallels as being by an Objectivist intellectual (and wrote the introduction), and endorse his lectures on Objectivism as being correct.

That's as far as it went.

The "intellectual heir" title is one that Peikoff himself declared ("Fact and Value" is the earliest I know of, but it might have been earlier). This declaration of "intellectual heir" appears nowhere in Peikoff's books. The declaration is all over the vast majority of books by others published with ARI endorsement, leading to a suspicion that it is some kind of unstated requirement for receiving ARI endorsement. Also, it is given in a Q&A on the ARI website (you have to scroll down):


This is an old debate in Objectivist circles. If you like, I can point you to some other links than the ones given now. Here is a public challenge by Robert Bidinotto. Also, here is a statement by Barbara Branden to Per-Olof Samuelsson in Untangling "Objectivist Schismology" published on his website, The Night Watchman. (Incidentally, his essay is a blast against everybody and he takes no sides.)


For a very critical view of the philosophical differences between Peikoff and Rand, see David Kelley's The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand. (You can download a PDF copy for free here.) It is quite a read and some of Kelley's ideas have been grossly misrepresented by Peikoff's supporters. I find it to be an excellent overview of Objectivism in general. Here is some basic information about the Kelley-Peikoff split I put together, including a wealth of links for both sides: Selective timeline and links of the Kelley-Peikoff schism.

At any rate, for Amy, I believe that the most important thing is for her to read everything Objectivism-wise (including stuff about schisms and differences) in the manner she best determines and come to her own conclusions. That goes for you, for me, and for anybody for that matter. Nothing is or should be more sacred to any of us than our independent minds.

Michael

So true! By extension, this should also be the basic principle of parenting. Nothing is or should be more sacred to any parent than the nurturing of a child's independent mind.

Psychological and social dynamics can open a gaping hole for manipulation and intimidation that bypasses conscious judgement. A parent's goal should be to arm a child's mind against such intrusions. Traditional parenting, instead, tends to aim at tearing the hole wide open to make the child compliant to the parent's (or teacher's or guardian's) whims. Despite the generally higher level of education today, the increase in a more secular worldview, and the advent of the baby-boomer's-- who vocally rebelled against traditional forms of controlling children-- evolving into their role as the establishment, I see many parents and teachers around me today using the same damaging forms of social control that I experienced when I was a child. The guardians of the children are the first to undermine the child's struggles for independent thought and judgement by exposing and manipulating his/her weakness to subconscious social manipulation. Social dynamics forms an intricate subjective realm or matrix that operates on a particular set of principles or code. A good parent's job is to help the child identify the code of this matrix, not to keep the code hidden so the parent can use it to manipulate the child.

Paul

Michael; Thank you for links about the"intellectual heir" question. Miss Rand could have named Leonard as her intellectual heir in her introduction to TOP. She named him her heir because he was the last one standing. She had removed other people from her will.

Going a lil' nutsy today- ....Have to finish cleaning one house for a party before going to grandmas for a day of Thanks...she spoils me and the kids so I am very thankful for the break!

If I don't find the time to pop back on before we depart...I would like to wish all of my new friends the happiest of Thanksgivings- Take time to appreciate the good things in life!

I will be back!...lol...I think you folks are stuck with me I have greatly enjoyed the beginnings of what I hope will be mutually beneficial friendships.

Cheers to you all!

~Amy~

The start of the silly season has kept me busier than anticipated...still here...still reading....

Amy,

Read all 725 pages of "The Pillars of Creation" over thanksgiving holiday. Wow. That Oba character sickened me and almost turned me off to Mr. Goodkind (as in "What kind of sicko dreams up this kind of stuff") but it all made sense in the end. Anyway, I'm a fan. I've put the whole series on my want list for Christmas. Hope to knock off the first two during my ten days off.

Have you ever used the "Literature Map" website?:

http://www.literature-map.com/terry+goodkind.html

Mike Erickson

wow....POC was definately not the first I would have reccomended. My first initial opinion was that was one of his weakest in the series. It is an important change in the storyline, but not his strongest...and yes Oba ..../shudders...lol


Upon my second and third reading of the series....it hit me like a ton of bricks; that the root of the novel was to introduce prejudices. It has been debated that Mr. Goodkind deliberately introduced new characters not only to further the storyline but to demonstrate how easily we can fall victim. For years he had been critisized even amoung fans that this was his worst novel...fans like it the least etc. etc. Not only was the main character demonstrating prejudices but the fans were as well. Its a novel not like the others, the main characters of the series were not even seen until the final chapters when Jennson had to utilize her own mind and knowledge to make a decision. I have yet to discuss this with Mr Goodkind, to know if it was intended or a side effect. I can't help but thinking it was indeed intended. He's like that...he likes to make you think.

It is extremely hard for me to pick a favorite of his. Most of his fans would instantly say Faith of the Fallen. Most see it as his homage to Ayn Rand. Wizard's First Rule, his first, had me hooked and wanting more. He reminded me how much I enjoy learning.

I am eager to discuss any and all with you. <big smile> If you liked POC I can't wait for you to read the others! He is one of the few authors I can re-read. I seem to learn something new everytime I re-read it. Kinda like Atlas does for me.

and No I have never used literature map...it looks cool, I'm gonna check it out. Though lol...I havent read any of the others "close" to him. Ayn Rand isn't even on the page!?! I think that tends to vary what you get out of his novels...I don't read them for the fantasy aspect...it was a fluke, and a gift. I laughed cause its one of his pet peeves, yet he turned me on to the fantasy genre. Thanks!

Amy,

You'll have to give me some time!

Rand comes up on the same page as Heinlein and Asimov in the literature map. Also Larry Niven. I've read a lot more "hard" sci-fi than fantasy. Heinlein and Niven were favorites. I read many of William Gibson books and liked them a lot a few years ago. I'd have to give it a lot of thought to come up with all of the authors I've liked through the years. I guess Silverberg and Ursula Le Guinn opened the fantasy door for me. And I've watched "Lord of the Rings" and the Harry Potter series with enjoyment.

I haven't done a lot of fiction reading the last few years. I'll probably reread some old favorites when I finish with the Terry Goodkind series. I'll read "Wizards First Rule" first. I don't read fiction to learn a point of view or philosophy. I just like a good story with a good plot, preferably with lots of action, written by someone I have some possibility of actually liking if I knew them in person.

The "Literature-Map" I haven't actually tried out. That is, buy a book by an unknown author near one of my favorites. Just an interesting website I stumbled across.

Cheers!

Amy; A web site you might like to look at is Paper Tiger Books. They sell the works of Frank Spearman,Nevill Shute, Victor Hugo and Edward Cline in fiction. They sell older works of philosphy, logic, and grammar. Spearman is a writer of novels and short stories set in the railroad in the last of the 19th century. His most famous work is Whispering Smith which was made into a movie with Alan Ladd. Look at the web site.

I stumbled into philosophy by reading fantasy. I too read to enjoy the story...but this one reminded me like I said before, how much I enjoy learning. The philosophy came to me a bit slower because I had never heard of O'ism at that point. The story itself resonated with me so much I eventually found Mr. Goodkind's site and learned about O'ism. The storyline itself peaked my curiosity enough to search for more information and folks of caliber to discuss the novels.

Mr Goodkind is a kind and endearing person, even if he does at times come off as absolute. As you know, O'ists are looked upon as uncaring when dealing w/ absolutes.

~waves to all again~...apologies for my absence...extra time has been ellusive as of late

Amy,

It's great to see you are alive and kicking.

I have the first 3 Goodkind books, but I haven't started yet. Same problem—time. But I will get to them eventually and tell you my impressions of them (and they do look promising).

Michael

I am still alive I promise!....and still a"work in progress"

Real life has kept me at bay from the boards for a while- Unfortunately I also lost my mom this summer, so there were a few trips back and forth to Ohio. Emotionally, mentally and physically enduring.

It looks like things have been updated around here, so once again it will take me a bit to get reacquainted. BTW I like the new layout.

I have also decided to try my hand at writing again. I figure this may be my last year as a stay-home-mom, so I want to try and take advantage of any sliver of time. My librarian is *not* liking me right now due to the amount of research books I have requested . When the time is right, I would love to bounce off some ideas and concepts your way and see what thoughts and opinions may be out there. I may just end up writing for me...but that is ok too. If I learn and am strengthened by it...then all the better.

Its good to be back and see some familiar faces...I will do my best to frequent more often

Cheers
~Amy

Amy!!!!

Good to see you!

I am very sorry to hear about your mother. Please accept Kat's and my condolences. This is a really hard time to get through.

Please write and post, since you are up for it. I am sure you will get some excellent feedback. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you write will be worth reading.

Michael

Amy;

I'm glad to see you back.

Losing parents is hard. I lost both of mine within three months of each other.

I liked your posts.

Hi, Amy!

Fascinating...another member who was turned to O'ism through Terry's works!

Looking forward to engaging in discussions about them as well.

For most of you that have "lived" the Objectivist philosophy, Ayn Rand (I assume) is the core of your exposure. For me, it was Terry Goodkind. I can't wait for the dialogues that will likely stem from his stories.

~ Shane