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#1 Michelle R

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 08:44 AM

Thoughts or feelings on this? Are you married? Going to be married? Want to be married? Don't want to be married?

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal? What changes? What's more respectable about roping yourself down to one person on a legal level than just living and sharing life with the other person?

I can see myself being perfectly happy with boyfriends for the rest of my life. Maybe find some nice gay guy who wants company and live with him when I get old enough to not really want sex anymore. It's not been an overwhelming desire for me till this point in my life (21), anyway. All of my adventures in this territory have been motivated more by curiosity than lust, and have just left me wondering what in hell everybody's been making such a goddamn fuss about (amusingly enough, I remember a similar thought occurring to Ellsworth Toohey in The Fountainhead).

Maybe that aspect will improve if I ever actually romantically desire somebody, but I don't see how I'll ever be sold on marriage.

The baffling thing is that, whenever I relate these feelings to older women, they just laugh softly and say: "you'll understand one day."

So, people who are happily married, I ask you: just what is the point of it all?

Edited by Michelle R, 31 May 2009 - 08:44 AM.

"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
-- Richard Dawkins

#2 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 08:50 AM

The baffling thing is that, whenever I relate these feelings to older women, they just laugh softly and say: "you'll understand one day."

So, people who are happily married, I ask you: just what is the point of it all?


You will have friend for life and devoted to you, even unto death (and the other way reciprocally). That is if you marry well. A bad mating is another matter. That can be pretty dismal. A good marriage is a place where lust and friendship can flourish. If you are skeptical on this matter, nothing I can say will really convince you. It is one of those things where you just have To Be There. There is one Downside. If one spouse dies before the other. That is a rough ride. I have been married since 1957, and I am not looking forward to that day. I selfishly wish to be the first to go (shame on me!). But that would leave my good wife holding the bag and the grief. That is the one sad bad thing about a life-long relationship. Death ends it.

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#3 Michelle R

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 08:53 AM

The baffling thing is that, whenever I relate these feelings to older women, they just laugh softly and say: "you'll understand one day."

So, people who are happily married, I ask you: just what is the point of it all?


You will have friend for life and devoted to you, even unto death (and the other way reciprocally). That is if you marry well. A bad mating is another matter. That can be pretty dismal. A good marriage is a place where lust and friendship can flourish. If you are skeptical on this matter, nothing I can say will really convince you. It is one of those things where you just have To Be There. There is one Downside. If one spouse dies before the other. That is a rough ride. I have been married since 1957, and I am not looking forward to that day. I selfishly wish to be the first to go (shame on me!). But that would leave my good wife holding the bag and the grief. That is the one sad bad thing about a life-long relationship. Death ends it.

Ba'al Chatzaf


That is the tragedy of all deep human relationships. They're all ended by death.

My point is that there need be nothing functionally different between living together as a married couple and "shacking up."
"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
-- Richard Dawkins

#4 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:02 AM

My point is that there need be nothing functionally different between living together as a married couple and "shacking up."


You are talking about ceremonial weddings as opposed to marriages (long term mating of humans). I think I get that now. Ceremony is only a rite of passage and a sociable way to have a party. It is right up their along with graduation ceremonies and bar mitzvas. You are quite right. They are not absolutely necessary, but they can be fun (except for the bride, the groom and the bar mitzvah boy).

Ba'al Chatzaf
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#5 James Heaps-Nelson

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:02 AM

Thoughts or feelings on this? Are you married? Going to be married? Want to be married? Don't want to be married?

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal? What changes? What's more respectable about roping yourself down to one person on a legal level than just living and sharing life with the other person?

I can see myself being perfectly happy with boyfriends for the rest of my life. Maybe find some nice gay guy who wants company and live with him when I get old enough to not really want sex anymore. It's not been an overwhelming desire for me till this point in my life (21), anyway. All of my adventures in this territory have been motivated more by curiosity than lust, and have just left me wondering what in hell everybody's been making such a goddamn fuss about (amusingly enough, I remember a similar thought occurring to Ellsworth Toohey in The Fountainhead).

Maybe that aspect will improve if I ever actually romantically desire somebody, but I don't see how I'll ever be sold on marriage.

The baffling thing is that, whenever I relate these feelings to older women, they just laugh softly and say: "you'll understand one day."

So, people who are happily married, I ask you: just what is the point of it all?


I'm married. At some times ecstatically, at other times it's difficult. But my wife knows and shares what I was like 10 years ago and in deeply personal ways. So you are continually building this shared world together. At some point the shared context you have is more important to you than anything you could experience outside the marriage. Commitment to building that shared world, protecting it and valuing it highly is what marriage is about.

Jim

#6 Michelle R

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:11 AM

My point is that there need be nothing functionally different between living together as a married couple and "shacking up."


You are talking about ceremonial weddings as opposed to marriages (long term mating of humans). I think I get that now. Ceremony is only a rite of passage and a sociable way to have a party. It is right up their along with graduation ceremonies and bar mitzvas. You are quite right. They are not absolutely necessary, but they can be fun (except for the bride, the groom and the bar mitzvah boy).

Ba'al Chatzaf


No, I'm not speaking of ceremony. I'm speaking of people who seek a government marriage license. Statutory marriage. There need not be a ceremony.
For all intents and purposes, I'm not speaking of common-law marriage.

Although even the thought of one life-long partner is somewhat depressing. I'm not really a romantic, in this regard. The world has far too many opportunities awaiting me to tie myself down to a person.

Edited by Michelle R, 31 May 2009 - 09:18 AM.

"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
-- Richard Dawkins

#7 general semanticist

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:18 AM

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal?

I agree. Marriage is an ancient institution that should have lived out it's usefulness by now. I got married for legal reasons some 29 years ago but with the recognition of common law "marriages" even that is irrelevant now.
'Always' and 'Never' are two words you should always remember never to use. :-)

#8 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:27 AM

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal?

I agree. Marriage is an ancient institution that should have lived out it's usefulness by now. I got married for legal reasons some 29 years ago but with the recognition of common law "marriages" even that is irrelevant now.


You guys are confusing Weddings with Marriages. Marriage is a mating relationship over an extended time period.

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#9 Michelle R

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:34 AM

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal?

I agree. Marriage is an ancient institution that should have lived out it's usefulness by now. I got married for legal reasons some 29 years ago but with the recognition of common law "marriages" even that is irrelevant now.


You guys are confusing Weddings with Marriages. Marriage is a mating relationship over an extended time period.

Ba'al Chatzaf


You can have statutory marriage without a wedding. So, no.
"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
-- Richard Dawkins

#10 general semanticist

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:34 AM

You guys are confusing Weddings with Marriages. Marriage is a mating relationship over an extended time period.

Actually, I think it is you who is using a non-standard meaning of 'marriage'.
'Always' and 'Never' are two words you should always remember never to use. :-)

#11 Michelle R

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:35 AM

You guys are confusing Weddings with Marriages. Marriage is a mating relationship over an extended time period.

Actually, I think it is you who is using a non-standard meaning of 'marriage'.


Ted, too. They're using this common-law definition like its the only one applicable to modern marriages.
"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"
-- Richard Dawkins

#12 Judith

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 01:57 PM

Maybe that aspect will improve if I ever actually romantically desire somebody, but I don't see how I'll ever be sold on marriage.

The baffling thing is that, whenever I relate these feelings to older women, they just laugh softly and say: "you'll understand one day."

(*laugh*) Add me to the list of those older women. I'm not a big fan of marriage, but desire comes with serious romantic love. If you've never been in love -- I mean as an adult woman, not teenage crushes -- you've never experienced desire, as opposed to lust. Desire can leave you lying motionless, unable to move because the one you want isn't there. It can make you feel like your bones are melting. It is the most intense thing you will ever experience. It will very likely happen to you. And you will never, ever forget your first love.

Judith
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#13 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 02:16 PM

... you are continually building this shared world together. At some point the shared context you have is more important to you than anything you could experience outside the marriage. Commitment to building that shared world, protecting it and valuing it highly is what marriage is about.

Jim,

I'm not feeling well. This is one more time I agree with you.

Only this time I think you expressed this thought...

er...

beautifully.

(There. I said it.)

I've gotta go lay down for a bit...

Michael

Know thyself...


#14 Selene

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 02:39 PM

... you are continually building this shared world together. At some point the shared context you have is more important to you than anything you could experience outside the marriage. Commitment to building that shared world, protecting it and valuing it highly is what marriage is about.

Jim,

I'm not feeling well. This is one more time I agree with you.

Only this time I think you expressed this thought...

er...

beautifully.

(There. I said it.)

I've gotta go lay down for a bit...

Michael


LOL!!!!

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take two thumb tacks and call me in the morning.
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#15 Ted Keer

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:41 PM

I don't take to the idea of marriage favorably myself. It seems like a useless formality to me. If you're going to be together for the rest of your lives, why do you need to make a contract to seal the deal? What changes? What's more respectable about roping yourself down to one person on a legal level than just living and sharing life with the other person?


Answer this: why celebrate a child's birthday? Why shake hands when you meet people? Why have New Year's, and Christmas, and July Fourth? Why hold doors for strangers? Why wave goodbye? These are all "pointless" formalities.

Ceremony is like art, it concretizes our values. It is part of what makes us not dumb animals nor soulless robots but happy humans.



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#16 Thom T G

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:51 PM

[...]
Answer this: why celebrate a child's birthday? Why shake hands when you meet people? Why have New Year's, and Christmas, and July Fourth? Why hold doors for strangers? Why wave goodbye? These are all "pointless" formalities.

Ceremony is like art, it concretizes our values. It is part of what makes us not dumb animals nor soulless robots but happy humans.

Nice thought, Ted. How would you define "ceremony"? While it cannot be a species of "artwork," it seems to have some CCD as you suggested.
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#17 Ted Keer

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:58 PM

[...]
Answer this: why celebrate a child's birthday? Why shake hands when you meet people? Why have New Year's, and Christmas, and July Fourth? Why hold doors for strangers? Why wave goodbye? These are all "pointless" formalities.

Ceremony is like art, it concretizes our values. It is part of what makes us not dumb animals nor soulless robots but happy humans.

Nice thought, Ted. How would you define "ceremony"? While it cannot be a species of "artwork," it seems to have some CCD as you suggested.


That's a paraphrase of my best-man speech at my sister's wedding. She married a best freind of mine from high school, and an Objectivist I converted. The DJ/MC said it was the best speech he'd ever heard in his ten years of the job.

I suppose a ceremony would be a formalized gesture (speech or action) to mark an occasion? That's off the top of my head.



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#18 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:37 AM

I suppose a ceremony would be a formalized gesture (speech or action) to mark an occasion? That's off the top of my head.


When two Objectivists wed (Judge Naragannset presiding) do they exchange gold?

Ba'al Chatzaf
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#19 BaalChatzaf

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:41 AM

Answer this: why celebrate a child's birthday? Why shake hands when you meet people? Why have New Year's, and Christmas, and July Fourth? Why hold doors for strangers? Why wave goodbye? These are all "pointless" formalities.

Ceremony is like art, it concretizes our values. It is part of what makes us not dumb animals nor soulless robots but happy humans.


Yup. Humans are social animals and often sociable. We sometimes enjoy each others company and mark special occasions. We are social animals, not herd animals nor hive animals. From many individual humans one community of humans (hopefully) serving the needs of each individual member.

As long as we are around there will be graduations, weddings, funerals and bar-mitzvahs.

Ba'al Chatzaf
אויב מיין באָבע האט בייצים זי וואָלט זיין מיין זיידע

#20 general semanticist

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 10:34 AM

Yup. Humans are social animals and often sociable. We sometimes enjoy each others company and mark special occasions. We are social animals, not herd animals nor hive animals. From many individual humans one community of humans (hopefully) serving the needs of each individual member.

As long as we are around there will be graduations, weddings, funerals and bar-mitzvahs.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Hey, I have no problem with having a party, :cheer: but it should be after they have been married for 20 years not just because they "got married". It's easy to get married - not so easy to make it work. :D
'Always' and 'Never' are two words you should always remember never to use. :-)




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