[BaalChatzaf]

If you read -Atlas Shrugged- carefully you will find that entertainment in Galt's Gulch consisted of piano recitals and stage plays. Nowhere did you read about stand-up comics or rave parties. Not even dances of a more subdued nature. So what did they do in Galt's Gulch for fun and games. Did they do anything? Or were the folks there 105 percent Apolonean and no percent Dionysean?

The whole thing reminded me of a revival meeting at a Unitarian Church.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Midas ran a casino and strip joint up near the powerhouse.

[Chris Grieb]

It's worth noting that Ayn Rand did not take dance classes till the late 60ths. In the April 68 issue of the Objectivist she announced that she had taken dance lessons from Robert Berole and said he was a very good instructor. I believe in the endorsement she said the she and Frank O'Connor had never had the chance to take dance classes. I suspect that Miss Rand not being a good dancer may have led her to discount the skill.

This endorsement was on the back cover of the magazine and is not reproduced in the reprints.

It is also worth noting that ARI conferences have had dance instructors for several years.

[Barbara Branden]

BaalChatzaf, on Mar 12 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

If you read -Atlas Shrugged- carefully you will find that entertainment in Galt's Gulch consisted of piano recitals and stage plays. Nowhere did you read about stand-up comics or rave parties. Not even dances of a more subdued nature. So what did they do in Galt's Gulch for fun and games. Did they do anything? Or were the folks there 105 percent Apolonean and no percent Dionysean?

The whole thing reminded me of a revival meeting at a Unitarian Church.

Ba'al Chatzaf

What do you expect of a work of fiction? No, Rand did not deal with the entertainment in Galt's Gulch; nor did she say what books Midas Mulligan read or whether Ragnar attended the opera; nor did she show Rearden shopping for clothes, or Dagny having her hair done, or Galt attending a movie; she did not present her views on breast feeding or the science of linguistics or the possibility of life on other planets. Atlas is a philosophical novel; it is not a manual of detailed instructions for the living of every aspect of one's daily life.

I have never understood why so many people require of Ayn Rand what they would not dream of requiring of other writers. I don't know what Macbeth did for entertainment, or the Ancient Mariner, or Saint Joan, but I can't say that I consider that a problem.

Barbara

[anonrobt]

Barbara Branden, on Mar 12 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

BaalChatzaf, on Mar 12 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

If you read -Atlas Shrugged- carefully you will find that entertainment in Galt's Gulch consisted of piano recitals and stage plays. Nowhere did you read about stand-up comics or rave parties. Not even dances of a more subdued nature. So what did they do in Galt's Gulch for fun and games. Did they do anything? Or were the folks there 105 percent Apolonean and no percent Dionysean?

The whole thing reminded me of a revival meeting at a Unitarian Church.

Ba'al Chatzaf

What do you expect of a work of fiction? No, Rand did not deal with the entertainment in Galt's Gulch; nor did she say what books Midas Mulligan read or whether Ragnar attended the opera; nor did she show Rearden shopping for clothes, or Dagny having her hair done, or Galt attending a movie; she did not present her views on breast feeding or the science of linguistics or the possibility of life on other planets. Atlas is a philosophical novel; it is not a manual of detailed instructions for the living of every aspect of one's daily life.

I have never understood why so many people require of Ayn Rand what they would not dream of requiring of other writers. I don't know what Macbeth did for entertainment, or the Ancient Mariner, or Saint Joan, but I can't say that I consider that a problem.

Barbara

Well said.

[BaalChatzaf]

Barbara Branden, on Mar 12 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

I have never understood why so many people require of Ayn Rand what they would not dream of requiring of other writers. I don't know what Macbeth did for entertainment, or the Ancient Mariner, or Saint Joan, but I can't say that I consider that a problem.

Barbara

Old MacBeth killed people for fun and prophet. He also did a rave routine at a dinner party.

If Ayn Rand went to some trouble to describe how the lights in Galt's Gulch were lit up, why not extend it to entertainment, which she did a little bit: stage plays and piano concerts. She also did grocery stores and farms. She even described Midas Mulligan's taste in decor. Why stop there? Entertainment is an important part of life and a world system should address it.

Part of the problem is that Ayn Rand sold Objectivism as a world system and extended its scope to include aesthetics and ethics as well as politics and metaphysics. Great ambitions produce great expectations.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Nothing is stopping you from writing your own novel and doing one better than Ayn Rand, since you obviously know how.

From what I have read, Rand herself liked Perry Mason, Mickey Spillane, James Bond, Charlie's Angels and beer-barrel music. I personally don't see this kind of stuff contributing to the themes in Atlas Shrugged, but then again, I don't have your superior vision.

Michael

[DavidMcK]

The best thing I ever read about Ayn Rand comes from Barbara Branden in her book 'The Passion of Ayn Rand'; paraphrasing (my books are in storage), if Ayn Rand had been any different she wouldn't have written 'Atlas Shrugged'. I agree with that whole heartedly and it doesn't stop me from seeing Ayn Rand as rather one-sided in some ways, and seeing her as a person as Barbara showed us in her book, and still seeing the heroism of Ayn Rand. I'm somewhat embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out the allusion to 'the Passion' (as in Bach's 'Passion of St. Matthew'). I've come to see literary heroes as a kind of bullseye on the dart board of life...something to aim at and if you miss...so what? just adjust your aim a little.

[BaalChatzaf]

Michael Stuart Kelly, on Mar 12 2009, 06:15 PM, said:

Bob,

Nothing is stopping you from writing your own novel and doing one better than Ayn Rand, since you obviously know how.

From what I have read, Rand herself liked Perry Mason, Mickey Spillane, James Bond, Charlie's Angels and beer-barrel music. I personally don't see this kind of stuff contributing to the themes in Atlas Shrugged, but then again, I don't have your superior vision.

Michael

I can see it now. Galt's Gulch as the Asperger Syndrome capital of the world. A community of OCD workaholics whose idea of a good time (other than work) is sitting in Midas Mulligan's living room and bending each other's ear and paying Midas a gold based quarter dollar for the grub.

Each person talking about what is most important to him/her self.

Right out of Simon and Garfunkle's -Sound of Silence-.

My version would have been entitled -Atlas Took a Walk and Did Not Say Goodbye- alternately titled -Piss on You, I am Out of Here-.

Now to be serious. I never had the gall or arrogance to present my operating modality as a universal or world system nor would I nor do I advocate it for others. I worked out my system for myself, and I use it because it works for me. I do not recommend it to others, especially Normals. Neurologically Typical folks simply do not think like me nor I like them.

Further more I do not see Man as heroic. I see Man as he is, version 5.0 Hominid with overly developed verbal tendencies and an unrealistically high opinion of himself. The main difference between us and the chimp who was gathering stones to throw at sight-seers is that we can do differential equations and the chimp cannot.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

BaalChatzaf, on Mar 12 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Further more I do not see Man as heroic. I see Man as he is, version 5.0 Hominid with overly developed verbal tendencies and an unrealistically high opinion of himself. The main difference between us and the chimp who was gathering stones to throw at sight-seers is that we can do differential equations and the chimp cannot.

How about (some) men? (And women, natch.) Tell us there are no heroic people and you'll refute yourself. Now! Tell us how a concept can be heroic? You've just posited the ultimate strawman. C' mon., tell us. You just told us "Man" can't be. How about man's dog? Or cat? They've done the job, so why not a man? You've implicitly claimed you have been heroic, you know. You the only one?

--Brant
PS: (edit)--Bob, frequently you are just full of shit. Like now.

This post has been edited by Brant Gaede: 12 March 2009 - 11:52 PM

[Barbara Branden]

David McK: "I'm somewhat embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out the allusion to 'the Passion'. . . "

You got it! I'm delighted. Almost no one gets it.

Barbara

[BaalChatzaf]

Brant Gaede, on Mar 13 2009, 01:48 AM, said:

BaalChatzaf, on Mar 12 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Further more I do not see Man as heroic. I see Man as he is, version 5.0 Hominid with overly developed verbal tendencies and an unrealistically high opinion of himself. The main difference between us and the chimp who was gathering stones to throw at sight-seers is that we can do differential equations and the chimp cannot.

How about (some) men? (And women, natch.) Tell us there are no heroic people and you'll refute yourself. Now! Tell us how a concept can be heroic? You've just posited the ultimate strawman. C' mon., tell us. You just told us "Man" can't be. How about man's dog? Or cat? They've done the job, so why not a man? You've implicitly claimed you have been heroic, you know. You the only one?

--Brant
PS: (edit)--Bob, frequently you are just full of shit. Like now.

I do not see Man (generic) as a hero. Man (generic) is hominid 5.0. Of course there are individual variations. This man might be heroic, that man might be left handed and this other man might prefer vanilla ice cream to strawberry ice cream etc. I hesitate to characterize Man (generic) as anything in particular with regard to character. I do see Man (generic) as being on a continuous spectrum with the common ancestor of Man (generic) and Chimp (generic). That is a matter of evolutionary development (biological) and not a matter of individual character or quirks. For all I know there might be a chimp (particular) who does not like planning to gather up stones to throw at humans. In fact most chimps don't. Most chimps in captivity throw their fecal material at humans (the males do). It is one of their endearing characteristics.

Unlike Ayn Rand, I have low expectations of other folks and high expectations of myself, which is why I am rarely disappointed. I do not generalize my wishes and expectations to all members of my species. I take what I get as I find what I get.

Ba'al Chatzaf

This post has been edited by BaalChatzaf: 13 March 2009 - 12:52 AM

[Chris Grieb]

Barbara; Great posts!

In my post I should have mentioned you served as Robert Berole's model in his dance demonstatrions at the NBI socials.

[Bill P]

BaalChatzaf, on Mar 13 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

Barbara Branden, on Mar 12 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

I have never understood why so many people require of Ayn Rand what they would not dream of requiring of other writers. I don't know what Macbeth did for entertainment, or the Ancient Mariner, or Saint Joan, but I can't say that I consider that a problem.

Barbara

Old MacBeth killed people for fun and prophet. He also did a rave routine at a dinner party.

If Ayn Rand went to some trouble to describe how the lights in Galt's Gulch were lit up, why not extend it to entertainment, which she did a little bit: stage plays and piano concerts. She also did grocery stores and farms. She even described Midas Mulligan's taste in decor. Why stop there? Entertainment is an important part of life and a world system should address it.

Part of the problem is that Ayn Rand sold Objectivism as a world system and extended its scope to include aesthetics and ethics as well as politics and metaphysics. Great ambitions produce great expectations.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Now, Bob . . .

Objectivism being a system does NOT imply that Atlas Shrugged will be encyclopedic and infinite in detail. It seems clear to me that Rand deliberately doesn't include detail of some sorts. We don't know the exact method Galt used to brush his teeth. Do such nonessential really matter? We don't know hardly anything about what sort of fiction (if any) Galt reads. Does it matter? Etc...

In what conceivable fashion would it be helpful to have more examples of entertainment beyond stage plays and piano concerts? If the list were trebled in length . . . would you still be looking for more items? To what end?

Bill P

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The Passion?

The Passion of Ayn Rand?

as in

The Passion of Christ?

I didn't get it either until now...

I'll be damned...

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

I'm having a hard time understanding this Passion thing. Is Atlas Shrugged some kind of cross Rand carried? The cross of moral perfectibility? The cross of a refused or ignored gift?

--Brant

[Selene]

Folks:

I just paid the philosophic usher for better seats to this one.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I have long ago noticed the parallels between Objectivism and Christianity. There are many more than Objectivists usually like to think.

As a literary device, Rand liked to take a cliche and put a new spin on it. She carried this over to philosophy and the "myths" she created to illustrate it. Think about the "crucifixion" of John Galt. Whereas Jesus asked for forgiveness of mankind as they did not know what they were doing , Galt told his torturers how to fix the torture device since they did not know what they were doing. Whereas Jesus died to save the world, Galt lived to save the world.

If you start thinking from this angle, it goes on and on.

Also, think about Ayn Rand's favorite painting. How's that for a cross to bear?

Michael

[anonrobt]

Michael Stuart Kelly, on Mar 13 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

Brant,

I have long ago noticed the parallels between Objectivism and Christianity. There are many more than Objectivists usually like to think.

As a literary device, Rand liked to take a cliche and put a new spin on it. She carried this over to philosophy and the "myths" she created to illustrate it. Think about the "crucifixion" of John Galt. Whereas Jesus asked for forgiveness of mankind as they did not know what they were doing , Galt told his torturers how to fix the torture device since they did not know what they were doing. Whereas Jesus died to save the world, Galt lived to save the world.

If you start thinking from this angle, it goes on and on.

Also, think about Ayn Rand's favorite painting. How's that for a cross to bear?

Michael

That was the delicious irony she had, saying it was about reason, not being anti-religious - yet the book was so full of allusions as you've noted, as many from Judaic as Christianistic mythologies... in a way, am surprised a book on just this factor has never been written - there is enough for a good volume...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Robert,

I started once on SoloHQ with an essay on turning the other cheek, but it did not fit in with the prophet-and-disciples complex of the owners at the time (the owners being the anointed ones, of course). Also, the phrase itself (turning the other cheek) seemed to destroy a commitment to reason in the mind of many Objectivists after crowd psychology triggers were implemented by one of the then owners, starting with an entire essay devoted to this. I don't recall ever having been so misrepresented in my entire life.

Now that I have studied crowd psychology and sales persuasion, I understand how it was done and why it almost worked with the public in scapegoating me into a total demon. (Fortunately, I did some correct things back then to help neutralize the effort, but I cannot claim to have done them from a standpoint of knowledge. I was winging it.) An analysis of that in itself might make an interesting article some day.

I sat on that essay all this time ever since because I am going to include it in a larger work for a more permanent public than is found in online discussion forums.

Michael