[BaalChatzaf]

In addition to reinstating the prayer for the conversion of the Jews, Benny 16, Das Panzer Pope has reversed the excommunication (done about 20 years ago) of four bishops holding extreme "right wing" views. One of the reversals is particularly interesting. Here is the blurb from the NYT.
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Among the men reinstated Saturday was Richard Williamson, a British-born cleric who in an interview last week said he did not believe that six million Jews died in the Nazi gas chambers. He has also given interviews saying that the United States government staged the Sept. 11 attacks as a pretext to invade Afghanistan.
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Ho, Ho, Ho. Benny 16, ueberstandartenfuehrer Ratzinger has smoked himself out.

Verily I say into you, this Pope is a Nazi in his heart and he will cancel out every advance the Catholic Church has made since the time of Pope John 23. Even the Polish Pope John Paul did not put a holocaust denier back in business, but Benny 16, the first (and I hope the last) Hitler Youth Pope did.

Ba'al Chatzaf

This post has been edited by BaalChatzaf: 25 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

[Bill P]

Remember when Rand said that only the Vatican, the Kremlin, and the Empire State Building (location of the office of NBI at the time and address for The OBjectivist Newsletter) knew the issues? (In her article Requiem for Man denouncing Populorum Progressio among other things...)

Exact quote "Well, as a friend of mine observed, only the Vatican, the Kermlin, and the Empire State Building know the real issues of the modern world."

Bill P

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

I saw Williamson on TV and couldn't believe what I heard.

I also saw a reporter say that the Vatican is trying to keep a distance from Williamson's holocaust-denial. All I could think was, "Huh? Reversing the dude's excommunication is a weird way to keep a distance."

Maybe it's a good thing this Pope is hell-bent on discrediting the Catholic Church for once and for all.

Michael

[Bill P]

Michael Stuart Kelly, on Jan 25 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

Bob,

I saw Williamson on TV and couldn't believe what I heard.

I also saw a reporter say that the Vatican is trying to keep a distance from Williamson's holocaust-denial. All I could think was, "Huh? Reversing the dude's excommunication is a weird way to keep a distance."

Maybe it's a good thing this Pope is hell-bent on discrediting the Catholic Church for once and for all.

Michael

Let them out themselves - and be seen for what they are. Of course, not all are holocaust-deniers, etc. . . . - but when such get the sanction at the top in such a dramatic fashion, then the pattern gets easier for all to see.

Bill P

[Ted Keer]

The Pope's reversing the excommunications is analogous to overturning a conviction on technical grounds. These four bishops were excommunicated because the archbishop who appointed them was acting without permission. It has nothing to do with other matters regarding those bishops, and is not a general endorsement of the men, but a narrow technical rerversal of a procedural matter. This is, if anything, indication that the Church is concerned with the rule of law.

[BaalChatzaf]

Ted Keer, on Jan 25 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

The Pope's reversing the excommunications is analogous to overturning a conviction on technical grounds. These four bishops were excommunicated because the archbishop who appointed them was acting without permission. It has nothing to do with other matters regarding those bishops, and is not a general endorsement of the men, but a narrow technical rerversal of a procedural matter. This is, if anything, indication that the Church is concerned with the rule of law.

Fine. Keep an eye on Standartenfuehrer Ratzinger for any further indications of antisemitism.

The four bishops excommunicated where ordained by Lefebre, a schismatic catholic. That was done according to church law. What you have seen is a politically motivated way of smoothing over the schism. If this were purely an in house political move, I could see it ( sort of ), but Benny 16, the Hitler Youth and FLAK gunner, also reinstated the prayer for the Conversion of the Jews. How long will it be before "the perfidious Jews" clause is reinstated into the catechism? What will it take to convince you that Benny 16 does not like Jews?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Ted Keer]

I don't understand, Bob, are you saying that Jews don't deserve salvation, that the Church shouldn't care for them? I think that someone's praying for your soul is a sweet gesture.

[Neil Parille]

Bob,

Benedict XVI has visited a synagogue and spoken kindly of the Jews. His theological reflections on Judaism (contained in Many Religions, One Covenant) are quite sophisticated. In fact he has been criticized by some conservative catholics as being insufficiently outspoken about the need for Jews to convert. Indeed he has kept Cardinal Kasper as the Vatican's spokesman for interreligious dialogue even though Kasper has said there should be no mission to convert the Jews.

Obviously as a Christian the pope would like Jews to convert to Christianity, just as I assume religious Jews would like Christians to convert to Judaism.

-Neil Parille

[BaalChatzaf]

Neil Parille, on Jan 25 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

Bob,


Obviously as a Christian the pope would like Jews to convert to Christianity, just as I assume religious Jews would like Christians to convert to Judaism.

-Neil Parille

Wrong.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Ted Keer]

Bob is right, Neil. Judaism is a racial program, and Jews discourage converts.

[BaalChatzaf]

Ted Keer, on Jan 25 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Bob is right, Neil. Judaism is a racial program, and Jews discourage converts.

More cultural than racial. Have you ever met any black Orthodox Jews? I have. Their ancestors were converts to Judaism way back and it was carried forward by family inheritance - Mothers to children.

By the way there is a conversion effort being carried out by the Lubovichers. They are trying to get Gentiles to observe the Noachic Laws (as opposed to Jewish Halacha).

The Noachic Laws are few and simple. Six negative, one positive..

1. No murder or bloodshed (except in self defense).
2. No theft (this includes fraud)
3. No sexual immorality (incest, rape and such like)
4. No cruelty to animals or slicing off parts of animals to eat while the animals live.
5. No idol worship.
6. No blasphemy
7. Police and Courts are required to keep order and to enforce the previous six laws.

#7 is the only positive commandment in the Noachic covenant.

You will also notice there is no requirement to worship God nor to keep the Sabbath.

If I had a choice of covenant (rather than the one I inherited from my family) I would chose the Noachic laws. Seven does it and no complications. It is in fact the covenant I keep. An atheist to adhere to the covenant without difficulty. For someone brought up Jewish, keeping the Noachic Laws is a slam-dunk.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

BaalChatzaf, on Jan 25 2009, 02:27 PM, said:

Ted Keer, on Jan 25 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Bob is right, Neil. Judaism is a racial program, and Jews discourage converts.

More cultural than racial. Have you ever met any black Orthodox Jews? I have. Their ancestors were converts to Judaism way back and it was carried forward by family inheritance - Mothers to children. These folks are the descendants of Ham rather than Shem, according to the Flood Story in Genesis. Abraham is a descendant of Shem. His grandson according to the Biblical Story.

By the way there is a conversion effort being carried out by the Lubovichers. They are trying to get Gentiles to observe the Noachic Laws (as opposed to Jewish Halacha).

The Noachic Laws are few and simple. Six negative, one positive..

1. No murder or bloodshed (except in self defense).
2. No theft (this includes fraud)
3. No sexual immorality (incest, rape and such like)
4. No cruelty to animals or slicing off parts of animals to eat while the animals live.
5. No idol worship.
6. No blasphemy
7. Police and Courts are required to keep order and to enforce the previous six laws.

#7 is the only positive commandment in the Noachic covenant.

You will also notice there is no requirement to worship God nor to keep the Sabbath.

If I had a choice of covenant (rather than the one I inherited from my family) I would chose the Noachic laws. Seven does it and no complications. It is in fact the covenant I keep. An atheist to adhere to the covenant without difficulty. For someone brought up Jewish, keeping the Noachic Laws is a slam-dunk.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

I encourage the conversion to Brantism. Most rational, at least to Him.

--Brant

[Neil Parille]

Bob,

Are you saying that if I went to my local orthodox synagogue and said I am an interested in converting I'd be shown the door?

-Neil Parille

[Ted Keer]

Neil Parille, on Jan 25 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

Bob,

Are you saying that if I went to my local orthodox synagogue and said I am an interested in converting I'd be shown the door?

-Neil Parille

You would be discouraged.

I most strongly recommend Essential Judaism by George Robinson. It covers all areas of Judaism encyclopedically, assumes no knowledge, and does not gloss over controversial or potentially embarassing subjects.

[Chris Grieb]

I think Liz Taylor and Sammy Davis Jr were able to convert.

[BaalChatzaf]

Chris Grieb, on Jan 25 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

I think Liz Taylor and Sammy Davis Jr were able to convert.

Liz Taylor was married to a Jewish man at one time, and that is why she converted. This is the most common reason for converting. The Orthodox Jewish folk try to discourage this by discouraging marriage outside the religion.

Neither of these conversion took place because Jews dressed in suits knocked at someone's door.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Ted Keer, on Jan 25 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

I don't understand, Bob, are you saying that Jews don't deserve salvation, that the Church shouldn't care for them? I think that someone's praying for your soul is a sweet gesture.

No it isn't. It is heaping hot coals on my head, per Paul's instructions. I don't think it is either sweet or well intentioned.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

Neil Parille, on Jan 25 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

Bob,

Are you saying that if I went to my local orthodox synagogue and said I am an interested in converting I'd be shown the door?

-Neil Parille

Most likely you would be encouraged to follow the Noachic Laws (which I have listed in a previous posting). A non-Jew does not have to become Jewish to be a righteous person. Very few non-Jewish to Jewish conversions are celebrated in Judaism. One such is that of Ruth, a woman of the Moabite people, who desired to become Jewish after her Jewish husband died. She declared unto Naomi, her mother-in-law, "Thy people shall be my people and thy god shall be my god". Ruth is the great grandmother of King David. Also the Queen of Shebah was thought to have converted to Judaism after being with King Solomon. Such conversions are consider exceptional and are not energetically sought after by the Orthodox Jewish community.

In the sixth book of the Mishnah Torah -Perke Avot- it is declared that the righteous people of all the nations shall have a part in the world to come. Judaism is not essential to salvation nor for being a righteous person. A practicing Objectivist follows the Noachic Laws implicitly. Check it out. If you are already an Objectivist, why be a Jew? You are already A-OK. Besides conversion for an adult male involves circumcision which ought to be discouragement enough.

Ba'al Chatzaf

This post has been edited by BaalChatzaf: 25 January 2009 - 03:23 PM

[Ted Keer]

BaalChatzaf, on Jan 25 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

Chris Grieb, on Jan 25 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

I think Liz Taylor and Sammy Davis Jr were able to convert.

Liz Taylor was married to a Jewish man at one time, and that is why she converted. This is the most common reason for converting. The Orthodox Jewish folk try to discourage this by discouraging marriage outside the religion.

Neither of these conversion took place because Jews dressed in suits knocked at someone's door.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You know Catholics are embarassed by Paul. You need to direct your ire where it really belongs, with the Protestants. Tell me what you think of Luther.