Gustav Mahler's Second and Eighth Symphonies

[Ed Hudgins]

Gustav Mahler’s Second and Eighth Symphonies

Are any of you Mahler fans? On Friday I saw the 2nd Symphony, the "Resurrection," with the Baltimore Symphony under Yuri Temirkanov in his farewell concert, and Saturday I saw the 8th, the "Symphony of a Thousand" with the National Symphony under Leonard Slatkin. Incredible!

The first movement of the 2nd -- one of my favorites -- is one of Mahler’s strong struggle with death themes, starting with low strings, slowly adding instruments and pace, building -- with contemplative, longing and occasionally peaceful passages -- to bold pronouncements by the brass – characteristic Mahler! Temirkanov started slower than in my favorite recording of this work by Solti but built it up well. And the brass truly rose to the occasion of a piece that’s a brass-lover’s dream.

The second and third movements are like the somewhat peaceful reflections of someone at the end of a life. The final movements are strong Mahler, with a soloist and then large chorus on the theme death and rebirth. Mahler’s use of instruments and orchestration give a unique, individualistic and unmistakable sound. There are passages in this symphony that I queue up on my CD to listen to, to savor!

Some Objectivists might argue that the 2nd (as well as other Mahler works) are simply too tragic, with too malevolent as sense of life, and with the only respites coming only from religion. But what you hear in the 2nd is power, passion and strength. You don’t have to have a malevolent sense of life to appreciate that and you will find no better place for such an experience than Mahler.

The 8th Symphony is called the "Symphony of a Thousand" for the size of the ensemble. Being in a concert hall where this is being played is an experience in itself that you will rarely have and should never pass up!

I counted at least 350 chorus members and soloists. They were not only arrayed behind the orchestra staked to the huge organ pipes near the ceiling, they were arrayed in the special box seats on the sides of the stage and in all of the third tier seats on both sides of the Kennedy Center concert hall. (No wonder tickets were hard to come by! Condi Rice, did manage to get a ticket; she was there in the box where, years ago, I saw Henry Kissinger at a concert conducted by Karajan. I guess secretaries of state have good taste in music!) Slatkin even put eight of the brass up there in the left rear third tier. There was a soloist up in the fourth tier as well. There were about 150 musicians manning the instruments.

Talk about a stereo effect! This is something that no sound system could ever reproduce. You really need to be there. By the way, no one could fall asleep during this symphony. If you could, it’s because you have serious ear or neural damage and should see your physician immediately. Of course some would say that the volume of this work will create such damage in any case!

This has to be a tough piece to conduct because of its size as well as the complexity of Mahler’s score. But Slatkin, the best conductor NSO has had, pulled it off well.

The symphony itself is Mahler’s only one that is completely joyous and triumphant. It is choral throughout with a few purely instrumental interludes. The first part is to the text of a Medieval Latin hymn "Veni creator spiritus" ("Come creator Spirit"). The second part is to the German text of the end of "Faust" with various choirs of angels and other powers declaring the hope for a shining eternity.

Objectivists should not get too hung up on the religious themes. If you don’t understand Latin or German, just listen to the beautiful voices and powerful, triumphant music.

Back-to-back evenings of Mahler, each symphony an hour and a half long: Too much Mahler? Never! I’d like to try all nine symphonies, one each for nine nights in a row. That would separate the true from the fair-weather fans!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ed,

Wow! You sure took me back a few years. Here is some mental wandering through the catacombs of my personal history.

I used to play principal trombone in the São Paulo State Symphony Orchestra when it was under the baton of Maestro Eleazar de Carvalho and later I was one of his assistant conductors. We did a Mahler season where we performed one symphony a week for 11 weeks (ending with a completed version of the 10th, the Cooke version if I remember correctly, and Das Lied Von Der Erde (The Song of the Earth). There is an official Mahler medal awarded for conductors who have conducted all his symphonies and Maestro Eleazar had one, but he did not do all of them that season – there were guest conductors.

There is something about going emotionally really high, then really low, then really banal (like beer barrel banal), then really serene to the point of boring all the time, which is characteristic of Mahler, that turns you into a nervous wreck when you get too much. That is literally what happened to the orchestra members. Sudden extreme ups and downs get to you. Audience-wise, I don’t know how that would be. I suspect it would be far better than rehearsal-wise, which was a spiritual disaster. By the end of the season, we were all at each others throats.

I love Mahler’s highs and his brass writing, though. When he is good, he is very, very good. The trombone dirge solo in the 3rd Symphony was a high point in my trombone playing career and, modestly speaking, I played it like there was no tomorrow. My characteristic trombone sound was a deep rich noble tone (I used a big horn) that would get the crowds on their feet at the end of heroic romantic works, so it was especially suited to that particular solo. Incidentally, Milton Stevens, my teacher, was the principal trombonist of the NSO under Rostropovich. (I just Googled the NSO and see that he still is there. What a pleasant find!)

I remember a funny remark in a book I read years ago (I think the title was The Faker’s Guide to Classical Music). It said that when you go to a Mahler concert, you only have to pay attention during the first five minutes. All the main tunes (or motives) will be presented. Then, you can go into a coma until the end and still be able to talk about the work.

I must have played the 2nd Symphony at least 20 times during my career, so I know it pretty well. It is one of my favorites. (On the other hand, the 6th Symphony is extremely neurotic. Thank goodness I only did that twice.) I think my favorite Mahler work is Das Lied Von Der Erde (The Song of the Earth), especially the exotic sounding woodwind parts near the beginning, but I haven't heard it in years. There’s something very charming about a German trying to be Chinese maybe… (You should see the train-wreck of Germans trying to play samba!)

As a conductor, I only conducted Kindertotenlieder (Songs of the Death of Children) of Mahler’s works (this was with the Orquestra Sinfônica do Teatro Nacional in Brasília). I used a baritone instead of the more popular mezzo-soprano since that was what Mahler did during his life. I listened to about six different recordings, but only superficially (and without looking at the score). Then I forgot everything I heard as I dug deep into the score.

One of the delicious things about Mahler is that he gives you very clear directions as to what he wants. The bad thing about him is that many silly traditions spring up over the years. Furtwängler, for instance, once conducted the fourth movement of this work way too slow and the critics loved it, saying that it was due to angst about Nazism or whatever. Many conductors kept on doing that from then on. My version of Kindertotenlieder was very, very different than any of the recordings I heard (I listened to them again after the concert.) As a last brag from my classical music years, I believe that Kindertotenlieder was the high point of the season for the Orquestra Sinfônica do Teatro Nacional. (The New World Symphony of Dvořák, which was also on the program, was definitely not that – it was only an average performance.)

Enough of the past already…

Michael

[Dragonfly]

Michael, that should be: Kindertotenlieder...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dragonfly,

You are right. Thank you. That was a typo that got repeated through copy-paste. (Note that I got it right in Das Lied Von Der Erde.)

My fingers have a thing with "ei" and "ie." I am always typing "beleive," for instance, instead of "believe." Then I always have to go back and fix it. It doesn't matter how many times I correct it, I still make the same darn mistake. Just one of those things...

Michael

[Dragonfly]

You're not the only one, just google the word "beleive" or "wierd" for example... (but I think that quite a lot of people really don't know how these words should be spelled.)

[Ellen Stuttle]

I love Mahler but have only heard one of his symphonies (#4) live. The Hartford area is great for amateur music groups (we especially attend performances of the CVCO, the Conneticul Valley Chamber Orchestra), but the Hartford Symphony lacks the personnel for more than the occasional Mahler gig.

Ellen

___

[Ed Hudgins]

MSK -- Thanks for your response. I'm quite impressed not only by your musical background but by the fact that you were in brass sections playing Mahler. This is where the term "kick ass" can truly be applied!

Certainly from his subjects Mahler's works can be on the depressing side. I found your comments on the affects of playing Mahler on the orchestra to be interesting. But as I mentioned, I find in them strength and incredible musical sounds.

By the way, other favorite Mahler first movements of mine are the Fifth, Sixth and Ninth. And he had one of the best First symphonies of any composer, which I heard live last summer.

By the way, in terms of the "best opening 30 seconds" of a musical work, among my top few favorites would be "Das Lied" and the Mahler's Fifth, which is great for impressing people with your stereo system. (Another would be Puccini's "Turandot.")

Ellen, glad you like Mahler too. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that a smaller orchestra did the 4th, a nice piece. I guess you'd need to go down to New York to get the larger, hardcore stuff!

[Roger Bissell]

Hi, Ed -- I'm not a big Mahler fan. It's possible I might be some day, but shocking as that might be for a 57 year old appreciator of classical music, I have to this date only heard Mahler's 1st Symphony, which I liked but did not strongly like or love.

Michael -- I admire anyone who can stay awake for an entire hour playing a classical piece, let alone listening to one. :-)

REB

[Robert Jones]

Ed: Which Solti recording do you mean? The one with Chicago, or his more quicksilvery recording, with the London Symphony on Decca (hard to find, but I have a reel-to-reel in mint condish). Can't say I care for Herbert von Karajan in anything, but I never got around to hearing him conduct Mahler, so I can't say.

When it comes to Mahler, there is nothing like hearing it live. So I've been told -- I've attended hundreds of concerts, but never Mahler! It's usually a big to-do, so is programmed seldom. I've seen my share of Sibelius, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff and Dvorak, though.

The best I've heard of the "Titan" Symphony is Bruno Walter. He really grokked Mahler, learned from him directly. Of the "Resurrection" Symphony, my favorite was Ormandy's two recordings -- the one he did with the Minneapolis Symphony was the closest you can come to imagining Toscanini conduct Mahler (which he never did). The 1969 Philadelphia Orchestra recording is a tie for me with the Solti/LSO.

I have only one recording of the Eighth, by Stokowski, so I cannot judge it against others.

The greatest all-time recording of any Mahler Symphony was Erich Leinsdorf/Boston Symphony's recording of the Fifth -- Roger Voisin's trumpet is seering and soaring on that one, and the orchestra full of the proper Viennese sturm und drang to provide counterpoint with the brass, percussion and low strings.

As for more recent conductors, I like Bernard Haitink; They should keep James Levine away from Mahler's scores.

[Ed Hudgins]

Robert -- Thanks for your email!

I have Solti doing all of the Mahler symphonies with Chicago, except for the 1st, which I have with him conducting London. All are fine. I like the 2nd, 5th, 6th and 9th best. The opening of Solti's 5th is especially powerful, with the opening trumpet and strings coming in. It's a great disc with which to test speakers. I'm not familiar with the Leinsdorf/Boston 5th but will need to check it out.

I also have an interesting Mahler 6th with Barbirolli and the New Philharmonia. The pacing is very slow, different from the Solti and most other interpretations of that piece. It works though I prefer the faster pace.

Also I have Bruno Walter doing the best "Das Lied von die Erde" that I've heard, with Ernst Hafliger as tenor. The opening is one of the greatest first 30 seconds of any piece in the classical repertoire. I should check out Walter doing the 1st; it sounds from your description -- and from my own experience with Walter -- that it would certainly be worthwhile. (I heard Slatkin do the 1st last summer with the National; he's brought a lot of live Mahler to D.C.!)

I've heard a Mahler or two with Karajan and recall them being okay but for me, Karajan is best at Wagner and Beethoven, especially his earlier set of symphony recordings. I've never heard Ormandy do Mahler but I really like his Tchaikovsky later symphonies. (Speaking of Tchaikovsky, if you don't know the 1st Symphony, the Winter Dream, check it out. It's beautiful and not as well known as 4,5 and 6. I have Mutti doing it.)

But you're right, for big symphonies like those of Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Brahms, Rachmaninoff and such, it's really best to hear them live. I find that my ear is far better at picking up sounds that way. On many recordings, when the music goes from a loud to soft passage, I need to turn up the volume, for example, when the bass strings coming in with the first statement of the Ode to Joy in Beethoven's 9th. But live, I can hear it just fine.

Bottom line: Head to the concert hall when possible!

Best,

Ed

[Robert Jones]

Right now, I'm listening to Bruno Walter's live recording of Mahler's 9th, which was recorded at the Musikvereinssaal with the Vienna Philharmonic on 16 January 1938. It was Walter's (who was Jewish) last appearance with the VPO, as he fled for Paris immediately thereafter, seeing the Anschluss writing on the wall.

This is my favorite recording, and is surprisingly "modern" sounding, despite being on 78s. Thanks for theMahler post -- it has made me dig out my tapes and vinyl recordings as well as my CDs.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Robert Jones

[Judith]

I haven't yet stopped kicking myself for not buying tickets to those performances before they sold out. I knew they were happening last summer, and I put off buying the tickets because I didn't know who would be going with me, and I got busy, and then when I called to buy the tickets they were sold out of the 8th. (I wasn't going to make the trip just for the 2nd, since I've seen that one live twice.) Now I'll be lucky to find another performance of it in the continental US anytime in the next 20 years -- and I'd be happy to fly anywhere in the continental US to see a creditable performance of it! I've loved that piece since around 1980.

I've had the privilege of performing the finale of the 2nd a few times, but only with organ and brass, not an entire symphony, and not the entire work. (I sing in two local choral organizations. I've been TRYING to talk the local conductors into interest in the 2nd and the 8th, but nagging takes time and lots of people doing it.... Fortunately, I'm not alone in my interest! ) I'll never forget the first time I heard the 2nd -- it was a live performance, not a recording -- May of 1983, Salt Lake City, the Utah Symphony, Varujan Kojian conducting. I don't think my feet touched the ground for two weeks after that. Indelibly printed in my memory is the sight of Kojian poised on the podium for the finale, baton in hand, the perfect image of male ecstasy. I don't know what I wanted to do first -- kneel at his feet or tear off all of his clothes.

Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time, Ed! Wish I'd been there!

Judith

[Judith]

O . . . my . . . god . . . .

Tonight I heard Mahler's Sixth for the first time.

:shocked:

So . . .

Tonight I heard Mahler's Sixth for the first time.

Why didn't anyone TELL me?

It was just on the radio. I don't want to think about what condition I'd be in had it been a live performance.

(On the other hand, the 6th Symphony is extremely neurotic. Thank goodness I only did that twice.)

Michael, I remembered this conversation -- it is, after all, the one that got me to stop lurking and join OL. Could you elaborate on that statement, please? I know that performing a piece is often quite different emotionally from hearing it -- Vaughan Williams's "Flos Campi" was a dramatic awakening in that sense for me!!

I promptly ordered two CDs: Bernstein with the Vienna Philharmonic and von Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic; reviewers seemed to agree that those two performances are the definitive ones. I've got a giant collection of all ten Mahler symphonies lying around here somewhere but I CAN'T FIND IT. So I'll have to wait until Saturday for the new ones to be delivered.

So . . . here I go again . . . scouring North American symphony web pages, looking for live performances of Mahler symphonies....

Judith

Edited November 16, 2006 by Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

If the 6th wowed you, then I don't want to spoil it by saying bad things.

I performed that piece twice as principal trombonist and I have never heard it as a record. I hated it both times. But to be fair, I don't have that many memories of it.

There are stories I read about it that I remember, though. Mahler considered it his greatest creation (at least at the time) and stated that he had built an entire world with it. In one amusing story, he wanted a HUGE boom from the bass drum and he had an enormous thing built because he could not get the sound right with the normal bass drum. Then during the rehearsal he proudly presented his creation. But it didn't go BOOOOOOOOOOOM like he wanted. All it would do was a half-hearted "thud."

(All right, one bad comment. The 6th reminded me of a passage from a book I read over 30 years ago called Faker's Guide to Classical Music, if I remember the name correctly. It said that with Mahler, all you had to do was listen to the first five minutes, then you could go into a coma until right near the end. That way you will catch most of the tunes without having to listen to all the boring music in between. )

If I know me, though, should I ever decide to become really familiar with it, or prepare it for conducting (which is unlikely because I have no plans to return to that field), I will probably end up loving it. This happened to me with several works of Brahms.

Michael

[Judith]

If the 6th wowed you, then I don't want to spoil it by saying bad things.

. . .

(All right, one bad comment. The 6th reminded me of a passage from a book I read over 30 years ago called Faker's Guide to Classical Music, if I remember the name correctly. It said that with Mahler, all you had to do was listen to the first five minutes, then you could go into a coma until right near the end. That way you will catch most of the tunes without having to listen to all the boring music in between. )

Don't worry; you can't spoil something I like simply by voicing a contrary opinion! I'm still interested in what you have to say, if you're willing!

I DID wonder about that comment from the book at the time I read it; it certainly isn't true of the 2nd, for example. Having heard the 6th only once, I can't remember if it's true or not; I need to hear a piece a number of times before I can analyze it to that extent (I need to know the themes before I can remember them and recognize them upon rehearing).

I wasn't that impressed at the beginning of the first movement, but as it developed, I began to be. And the slow movement (which this conductor chose to play second) -- sitting alone in my car in the dark, with the rain coming down, listening to it -- I was completely blown away.

Judith

[Ed Hudgins]

Judith -- Glad you liked Mahler's Sixth; it's a remarkable piece, one of his best. I find I can listen to Mahler's works over and over and focus on different aspects of it. It's always interesting. But more important for me, its emotionally strength (and perhaps an emotional strain on folks who need to play it a lot, as Michael suggests). I love the contrast between the opening, driving theme that transitions into the lovely little theme that represents his wife, Alma.

The Karajan is a good recording. I like the Solti. For contrast you might check Barbirolli with the New Philharmonia. It's played at about half the speed as most Mahler's Sixths. It sounded strange to me and I was suspicious of it when I was first told about this pace. But I found it intriging, like watching the film of some fascinating phenomenon in slow motion.

By the way, I recently listened to one of Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples lectures on Mahler. I might post something on it later.

Have you heard Mahler's Fifth?

[Judith]

Judith -- Glad you liked Mahler's Sixth; it's a remarkable piece, one of his best. I find I can listen to Mahler's works over and over and focus on different aspects of it. It's always interesting. But more important for me, its emotionally strength (and perhaps an emotional strain on folks who need to play it a lot, as Michael suggests). I love the contrast between the opening, driving theme that transitions into the lovely little theme that represents his wife, Alma.

I'll have to listen for that when I get the recordings. I do remember sitting up and taking notice when the cowbells started to play; does that represent a transition?

The Karajan is a good recording. I like the Solti. For contrast you might check Barbirolli with the New Philharmonia. It's played at about half the speed as most Mahler's Sixths. It sounded strange to me and I was suspicious of it when I was first told about this pace. But I found it intriging, like watching the film of some fascinating phenomenon in slow motion.

Solti's renditions of the Second and the Eighth are my favorites. Although I have yet to find a recording that I consider perfect; I do know that there HAS to be an organ in the finale of #2 or I'm not satisfied. Somehow, none of them are powerful enough for me in terms of earthshaking noise and accurate renditions of the really, really low notes (bass drum, basses, etc.). Perhaps it's because my first experience of #2 was in person, and nothing can come close to matching that. I looked at this correspondence before making my purchases and saw your recommendations, but when I shopped at Amazon, I didn't see them come up in the first 75 or so hits (there were over 200 the way I ran the search), so I thought I'd start with these.

By the way, I recently listened to one of Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples lectures on Mahler. I might post something on it later.

Please do!

Have you heard Mahler's Fifth?

Not yet. Must...clean...house.... Now I'm missing FOUR large CD sets: Barber's opera (I even forget the title!), Copland's "The Tender Land", Carlisle Floyd's "Susannah", and my complete Mahler set. They're there...somewhere....

Judith

[Wrighty]

When I had my own record business I can remember a customer stating that for Mahler you only need to know ONE of the symphonies because of all his reworkings. Suitably horrified I challenged him to say which one he would recommend! Needless to say as a Mahler devotee since 1966 I have often thought which work I would take with me to "the desert island"......it is now undoubtedly the 2nd which I has been a revelation to me over the last 4-5 years although first encountered in 1973.

I stand by the Simon Rattle recorded version with the CBSO, Areleen Auger and Janet Baker. I haven't heard the Gilbert Kaplan recording on DG but I did hear it live with him at RFH London which was stunning. He also did a pre-concert talk on all the symphonies which was very interesting and a nice insight into Mr Kaplan's personality as well!

I've not heard 6,7,8 and Das Lied live but there is still time!!

I feel the 6th is up there with the 10th (Cooke version) in being emotionally taxing for the listener, and if I was to guide someone into getting to know Mahler they would come later along the path. Nobody guided me however and my route into Mahler and Bruckner was through their 9th symphonies! My first encounter with the 6th was the only available (Leonard Bernstein's) recording back in 1967. I would like to hear it live now and really get to re-know it.

[Judith]

I have often thought which work I would take with me to "the desert island"......it is now undoubtedly the 2nd

That's definitely a good one. I can't imagine getting tired of it.

I've not heard 6,7,8 and Das Lied live but there is still time!!

The seventh is being played all over the U.S. and Canada next year, so you'll have a number of chances. Hmmm, let's see....

Syracuse Symphony: January 19, 20

Montreal Symphony: Tuesday, January 23, Wednesday, January 24

New York Philharmonic: Wednesday, June 20, Thursday, June 21, Friday, June 22, Saturday, June 23

Los Angeles Philharmonic: Friday, January 12, Saturday, January 13, Sunday, January 14

Utah Symphony: Friday, February 23, Saturday, February 24

Vancouver Symphony: Saturday, April 14, Monday April 16

San Francisco Symphony: June 7-9

I didn't write down the performances of Das Lied, but there were some out there.

I feel the 6th is up there with the 10th (Cooke version) in being emotionally taxing for the listener, and if I was to guide someone into getting to know Mahler they would come later along the path. Nobody guided me however and my route into Mahler and Bruckner was through their 9th symphonies!

I kind of like "emotionally taxing". I've never heard the fourth, fifth, seventh, ninth, or tenth symphonies; I still have to dig up my complete set. I'm hoping to get the house cleaned over the holidays, during which time I expect it to turn up. I don't know that I want to listen to them all at once, though; they'll all run into each other that way, and I'll never remember them separately. I'd rather listen to one at a time and get to know it.

Judith

[Wrighty]

Mahler has been this week's composer on BBC Radio 3. Having now heard Kindertotenlieder again I realise how close the emotional links are between it and Symphony 6. The song cycles serve as superb grounding to getting to know the symphonies. I can thoroughly recommend them!

Interesting how much the 7th is performed these days all round the world. It used to be viewed as being the least "charged" of his works - occupying a place akin to Rachmaninov's 3rd symphony.

Sadly only a big win our Lottery would enable me to skip over to visit the US!!

[Judith]

Mahler has been this week's composer on BBC Radio 3.

. . .

Sadly only a big win our Lottery would enable me to skip over to visit the US!!

Ah. I looked for your location, but it's not in your profile. I guess you won't be coming to the performances in Syracuse or Vancouver, then.

Judith

[Ed Hudgins]

I just saw Slatkin do Mahler's 1st with the National Symphony at the Kennedy Center. I had seen him do it at Wolf Trap a few years ago but this time I was in a stage box seat overlooking the orchestra, the best seat in the house! That blur in the photo is the ever-in-motion Slatkin who just about danced through the performance.

The National Symphony kicked ass in this performance. The brass were excellent, especially good the lead French horn.

Just say "Yes" to Mahler!

[BaalChatzaf]

Some Objectivists might argue that the 2nd (as well as other Mahler works) are simply too tragic, with too malevolent as sense of life, and with the only respites coming only from religion. But what you hear in the 2nd is power, passion and strength. You don’t have to have a malevolent sense of life to appreciate that and you will find no better place for such an experience than Mahler.

Do you have a handy dandy objective algorithm for determining just how malevolent a sense of life a piece of music contains? Can you deduce this from the meter, the measure, the pitch? If not, isn't the notion of malevolent sense of life just an impression and an opinion which is -purely- subjective?

What it comes down to is this: you like the music or you don't. That is as subjective as it gets. De gustibus non disputandim est.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited June 11, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Do you like classical music?

Michael

[Ed Hudgins]

I remember too well talking with Objectivists in Boston or New York who were there, like me, attending events at which Rand was speaking and finding them twisting their own aesthetic tastes to fit what they thought Rand liked. I always stuck to my guns or, more accurately, my Wagner, Beethoven and Mahler!