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Marketing - It Is All About Getting Your Attention - Northern Italian Lady Gets It Right! Umm Does She Ever!


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#41 Selene

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:05 PM

Yes, Adam, the point of sales is to make the sale. I get it. But what's the point of the product that can't sell itself?


For example, an over the counter medicine that tastes really bad?

I do not think that is what you mean.
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#42 Dglgmut

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:34 PM

If it is better than the competition, stores will choose to stock it. If the pharmacist knows what he's talking about, he will recommend it as an act of good customer service.

Will a billboard help an intelligent consumer make a purchase? No. But that sort of advertising is done all the time... why? Because they play to the unintelligent consumer, instead.

Why are there so many unintelligent consumers? Because the economy has been toyed with.

#43 Selene

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:42 PM

Why are there so many unintelligent consumers? Because the economy has been toyed with.


I don't know if that statement is valid.

Prove your argument.
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#44 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:23 PM

I'm not saying sales and marketing are not effective, or that they have no place in an ideal world.... but their place would only be in the spreading of awareness.

Calvin,

Why?

Because you say so?

I would not want to live in a world like that.

Human nature exists.

Maybe--to you--in an ideal world, human nature would not be human nature and humans would be something else?

Michael

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#45 Merlin Jetton

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:34 AM

I find it hard to fathom capitalism ( = free enterprise) without salespeople and advertising. Of course, with them comes some stretching the truth, misrepresentation and even fraud. It's a bit ironic to me that salespeople and advertising are rarely mentioned in Atlas Shrugged, and the tone is negative when they are.

"That's all there is to it," the fattish Dr. Blodgett announced through the microphone, in the ingratiating sales tone of a department-store floorwalker.

That Mortgage Company was a sort of noisy outfit that did a lot of advertising about easy credit.

After graduation, he took a job in the advertising department of a company that manufactured a bogus corn-cure. The cure sold well and he rose to be the head of his department. He left it to take charge of the advertising of a hair-restorer, then of a patented brassière, then of a new soap, then of a soft drink—and then he became advertising vice-president of an automobile concern. He tried to sell automobiles as if they were a bogus corn-cure. They did not sell. He blamed it on the insufficiency of his advertising budget.



#46 Dglgmut

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:54 AM

To Michael: All I mean is in an ideal world people wouldn't be influenced to buy something because the company that makes it says it's good. They'd want more information. The only point of advertising if the world were like that would be to announce when an anticipated product had been completed/released. In my ideal world, businesses would have to build a reputation before they became hugely successful; and that can only happen if consumers smarten up.

Adam: I can't prove it exactly, but I assume when people go into debt and spend more money than they can repay, they've probably bought some stuff they didn't really need.

I hope the consumer outgrows this behavior so the corporations can start focusing on the actual product.

edit: I'll give you my limited understanding of the situation, with some conjecture to fill in the gaps. Correct me if I'm way off or just tell me to shut up.

Banks pump money into the economy by offering subprime loans, then corporations rush to collect that money by focusing primarily on marketing and retail. Once the borrowers have been tapped out and cannot repay the money they borrowed, it's the bank's problem... but the bank was never worried to begin with because they own part of or have a connection with The Federal Reserve. The corporations have the borrowed money, but it's theirs now, because they "earned" it. The borrowers lose nothing, because it wasn't their money to begin with. The only people who lose in this situation are the ones that weren't mentioned--the honest people who give money its value.

#47 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:06 AM

To Michael: All I mean is in an ideal world people wouldn't be influenced to buy something because the company that makes it says it's good. They'd want more information. The only point of advertising if the world were like that would be to announce when an anticipated product had been completed/released. In my ideal world, businesses would have to build a reputation before they became hugely successful; and that can only happen if consumers smarten up.

Calvin,

And I repeat, I would not like to live in a world like that.

The only way to achieve that world is to remove all emotion from owning and using products and services.

I like my emotions. And I like my reason.

I like being a human being.

I hear you saying, "Oh, but I'm not talking about owning the product. I'm talking about when you buy it." And I respond, since when are you a human being when owning something but not a human being when acquiring it from a person who owns it?

Or are you imagining an "ideal world" where some coercive organization forces businesses to behave in the manner you find ideal--that would force them to ignore human emotions in their advertising?

Here's even a better question. Do you think you make totally rational decisions when buying a product or service? Heve you never felt, "I've just got to have this thing," and spent way more than you should? And no promises by the seller were false? Say a CD or an item of clothing or a fancy widget? Then a few days after you buy it, you feel uneasy because you've lost interest in it?

Whose responsibility is that?

Yours?

Or do you prefer to blame that on somebody else when it happens? (And dream about some vague notion of an "ideal world"?)

On another point, businesses don't need your "ideal world" to have to worry about their reputation. A poor reputation will sink a business faster than anything a competitor can throw at it--unless the business is protected by the government or something like that. Businesses actually do have to build a reputation in order to become "hugely successful." That is, if they want to exist for any length of time. So I don't see a real beef on that score with what we have now.

EDIT: Apropos, are you interested in educating yourself on this, or are you content issuing generalities based on generalities and pretending like you know what you are talking about? If you are interested in some easy, but informative reading on marketing, I can point you in a few good directions.

Michael

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#48 anamous Cares

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

The best way to market is to start a sudden new trend or fetish.

for instants if you make kama sutra a trend then anything kama sutra sells
Note from MSK: Bogus account

#49 Selene

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:46 PM

The best way to market is to start a sudden new trend or fetish.

for instants if you make kama sutra a trend then anything kama sutra sells


The ballad of Barbie and the Pet Rock...

Barbie turned fifty three the other day.

Good morning, it’s Friday, March 9, 2012, and it doesn’t seem possible, because she’s still so young-looking and svelte, but Barbie is 53 years old today. The star of Mattel Toys made her debut on March 9, 1959, at the American Toy Fair in New York City.

The folks at Mattel gave Barbie a full name (Barbie Millicent Roberts), a fictional hometown (Willows, Wisconsin) and a boyfriend (Ken, who first appeared in 1961), but it was always Barbie herself – along with those endless outfits – that held American girls in such thrall.

Five decades later, some 800 million Barbies have been sold here and around the world. Anyone that popular is going to invite controversy, and Barbie has seen her share.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#50 Merlin Jetton

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:14 AM

By the way, there is an entertaining marketing story here or here, the part about John Gates.

#51 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:21 AM

Merlin,

Gates used one of the most effective marketing tools--a dramatic product demonstration.

Elevators needed this, too, to take off (see here--sorry but not enough time to search for a better link).

Just think... without that 1854 dramatic product demonstration at the New York Crystal Palace Exhibition, people would still be afraid to get into elevators. No elevators, no skyscrapers. No skyscrapers, no The Fountainhead.

God know where this would have ended. :)

Michael

Know thyself...


#52 Merlin Jetton

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:37 AM

God know where this would have ended. :smile:

Why is it "know" and not "knows"? How do you know God know(s)? :smile:

#53 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:49 AM

Opps...

:)

Michael

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#54 Dglgmut

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:29 AM

Michael, I just felt like clarifying my point because it's likely I've done a poor job of communicating here:

We were talking about safe cigarettes... so let's say I smoke, and I'm on the Internet and I see this banner Posted Image

Now, in an ideal world I'd go. "That looks interesting... I'll look into it." Now, the "looking into" is not going to be going to their website but by going to independent review sites or looking for customer feedback. This is how the free market would optimally work, anyway. Consumers communicating increases the "regulations" of the free market by ditching bad companies sooner and rewarding good companies more often.

The Internet is a world saving invention. What would eventually happen is marketing dies out because products speak for themselves. Word-of-mouth will become the #1 form of advertising, which is how it should be.

In my ideal world consumers demand information before giving up their money, and this helps everybody because it keeps businesses honest and makes competition about quality rather than fake hype and manipulation.

You made that Kony thread, and I'm assuming you would rather a world where people are not stupid enough to fall for that without further investigation.. right?

#55 whYNOT

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:18 AM

Marketing and advertising has grown a lot since I used to be interested/involved.
But, really, where's the fundamental change?
Used to be bill-boards and media - now you find 'bill-boards' (many more) while
driving down the internet 'highway'.
One thing of huge value for me, is the proliferation of consumer-review sites.
Several photographic forums now exist where you can get helpful feed-back and commentary
on x camera, or y lens from keen photographers, worldwide - before (of course) ordering online
from Adorama or whoever.
Maybe nothing changes except the numbers; buyer beware, still applies.
"To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge". Nicolaus Copernicus (An original objectivist) 1473-1543 ***No man may be smaller than his philosophy...***

#56 Dglgmut

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:45 PM

If the U.S. went back to the gold standard and money was once again rooted in valuable work the benefits of smart consumerism would be much more evident than they are now.

Most of the stuff I've said in this thread comes from the premise that pumping illegitimate money into an economy by any means has incalculable ramifications.

#57 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:40 PM

You made that Kony thread, and I'm assuming you would rather a world where people are not stupid enough to fall for that without further investigation.. right?

Calvin,

Wrong.

I go on the premise that in order to evaluate something correctly, you have to identify it correctly first.

People do not fall for the Kony 2012 video because they are stupid. But you need to study some in order to understand that.

You keep talking about an "ideal" world, and I keep wondering about what kind of creatures would inhabit this "ideal" world--because they certainly would not be human beings.

The few times widespread attempts have been made at your kind of approach, they ended in disaster. For example, we got eugenics at the turn of last century (to perfect the human race to the "ideal" by weeding out the bad apples from the gene pool) and that led to the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps. And we got the "dictatorship of the proletariat" in communist countries, which was only supposed to last until man became improved enough to live in the "ideal" world they were devising. We have seen how that turned out and it hasn't been pretty.

Nope. I don't agree with your approach at all.

I am for understanding correctly what a human being is, then devising any "ideal" worlds to suit that understanding. In other words, I am for identifying correctly, then evaluating.

Michael

Know thyself...


#58 Dglgmut

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:52 AM

The few times widespread attempts have been made at your kind of approach, they ended in disaster.


Attempts? I'm not saying anything should be done other than sorting out the U.S. dollar. I mean, inflation is basically a hidden tax, so I guess the real issue is the government's redistribution of wealth. It's impossible to say what could be without government intervention, but I believe it's not just businesses that advance, but consumers as well.

People who fall for that KONY BS are too naive to investigate further, and are prepared to run around the city putting up posters and make a big fuss for a cause that is likely dangerous to America. Call them whatever you want... I think stupid fits.

#59 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

Attempts? I'm not saying anything should be done other than sorting out the U.S. dollar.

Calvin,

You misunderstood. I was not talking about economics.

I was talking about your use of the term "ideal world." This concept has three implications. The first is that the world you are talking about essentially means society, not nature, the earth and so forth. The second is that this world of human beings in your conception is not "ideal," but instead flawed and needs fixing. The third is that mankind as a whole can be improved to fit into such an "ideal world." If this last were not the case, how do we get to your "ideal world?

Ah yes... another implication. You "ideal world" is not only suitable for everyone, you are the one who provides such "ideal" standards.

And this is where the danger resides. In philosophy (and religion), there are two main currents on human nature. The first is that man has a specific nature we study and the other is that man has a nature that can be molded (by philosophy, by society, by conditioning, whatever). This is usually expressed as man is imperfect and man can be perfected--although I don't like that way of saying it because it uses incomplete standards (and that is a whole other discussion).

When the "man has a specific nature" folks get their hands on power, you get social constructions like constitutional republics based on individual rights and freedom. When the "man has a nature that can be molded" folks get power, you get democracy and nice sounding things to get them in power, then you get totalitarian systems with mass deaths. They eventually and quite literally go about killing off the "imperfect" ones and letting the ones they are "molding" live.

Since your "ideal world" has nothing to do with human nature as a whole, but instead lops off some universal aspects of it, I don't agree with your conclusions. I don't believe they are possible and I would not want them if they were--because I know the price mankind would pay. History is full of examples.

You say you were not proposing anything to be attempted except to fix the dollar. I say people who promote your approach--that fundamental human nature things would be different in a superior "ideal" world--always pave the way for the bloody dictators who come later.

"Ideal" for me is not the equivalent of lopping off parts of the human brain.

People who fall for that KONY BS are too naive to investigate further, and are prepared to run around the city putting up posters and make a big fuss for a cause that is likely dangerous to America. Call them whatever you want... I think stupid fits.

I say you yourself "fall for" similar techniques as those used in Kony 2012 every waking hour.

For just one easy example (and there are oodles I could cite), when was the last time you bought some thingamajig with money you really needed for something else important because you just had to have the thingamajig right then--and soon after you took it home (maybe a few days later), you put it away somewhere and forgot all about it?

This is the same thing as what is in Kony 2012 working on you. And I say you are not "stupid" for having done that, although you might feel that way when you find the thingamajig several months later and wonder, "What in hell was I thinking when I bought this damn thing?"

Want a good concrete for the thingamajig example? Maybe you don't have this, but I have no doubt you have the equivalent. Do you have a treadmill that takes up too much space and works more like a clothes hanger than anything else? Try to remember what you felt like when you bought it. (Or bread making machine, or special home gardening tool, or course in Sanskrit, or automobile enhancers, etc.)

When you deny that the mental hooks like the ones in Kony 2012 are part of your nature as a human being and call people who fall for them "stupid" and so forth, you become extremely vulnerable to those who know how to use them.

For masters of deceptive persuasion, the person they love the most is the one who says he isn't stupid enough to fall for their techniques. He is their biggest cash cow simply because he turned off his awareness by himself and does not need to be tricked to do so.

A similar thing can be said for political leaders who use deceptive persuasion. They easily get their followers to call outright lies the truth, even when faced by solid contrary facts. Yet these people are not stupid--in fact, they see the truth without a hitch in other contexts.

Michael

Know thyself...


#60 Dglgmut

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

Michael, man has a specific nature alright, and that nature is an inclination to mold his own nature and improve himself.

You can say that everything we do is natural, and that anything that we are not doing would be unnatural and therefor is undesirable, since it would disagree with our nature.

I don't think anyone should help other people improve themselves (nor could they), but they definitely shouldn't obstruct that natural need for self-improvement and growth.

I bought an espresso machine without doing my research first. Won't happen again, because I made sure I understood that what I did was stupid. I'm not normal though; I take things that I do seriously.

I don't believe the trends of marketing and the fact that they have been working are anything but an unfortunate aspect of reality; like the unfortunate urge a mosquito has to fly towards a bug-zapper. That the consequences of popular consumerist behavior have been continually postponed, and that the natural and necessary denouement of such activities has not been allowed to play out to the benefit of humans capacity to plan towards a civilized and prosperous (productive) future, is a tragedy.

My ideal world is one in which everyone tries to create the life they want, rather than distract themselves from the fact that they're living.




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