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#21 PDS

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 01:15 PM

Peter,

I tried to follow your logic going from Jeff's lampooning of Phil to your rant against anarchy, but I couldn't find the connection.

btw - Several times in the past, Phil has made public announcements on OL that he would no longer post here for this grave problem or that. He started one thread I specifically remember to say that, while at other times he has posted within threads. (There might be more threads he started to tell folks he's going bye-bye forever, but I don't recall right now and don't feel like looking.)

He's always come back. Maybe he won't this time. I don't know. But if I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on him staying gone for good.

Can you imagine John Galt giving his radio speech, saying, "I have gone on strike because you people unfairly called me names and were uncivil." And then return? And then do it again and again?

I can't, but I can imagine Phil doing it.

:)

I'm going to stop before I start saying cruel things. I actually like Phil.

Anyway, with all this kindergarten stuff swirling around about Phil (for the upteenth time on this forum), I'm starting to get flashes of the movie, What About Bob?

:)

Michael


I was thinking more of Groundhog Day.

#22 Peter Taylor

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:40 PM

Michael wrote:
I tried to follow your logic going from Jeff's lampooning of Phil to your rant against anarchy, but I couldn't find the connection.

END QUOTE

JR is an anarchist, or did I miss something? They are the Forrest Gumps of philosophy : o ) Phil is an Objectivist like in the title of this site - A cursing one, but still one of the good guys.

I just wish one anarchist will be intellectually honest and bring forward a model, other than "I will do what I want to do and they will do what they want, and we are all sufficiently rational to live happily ever after." Their anarchy is simply a rant against the best system we have devised up until today, with no blueprint, no history of anarchism other than the unintentional / emergency lack of government to protect rights. Or we see anarchic territories when humans flee totalitarianism. Soon, the "freer" territory has a sheriff - always have, always will.

I missed the beginning of Beck. He is making fun of Obama who is speaking against coal powered plants.

Peter
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Independent Objectivist,
Peter Taylor

#23 Selene

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:14 PM


I think you misread that Angela.

What was it that I misread?


Angela:

My apologies, he did nickname himself that and "that beautiful hunk of junk" see Victor Manure and that beautiful hunk of junk were names he made for himself

Priceless, lol! Mature (he himself chose the name 'Manure' :D) obviously had a remarkable sense of humor. :)


Victor did have a great sense of humor, as Carol pointed out, but our resident expert on language, JR, came up with Victor "Manure," which is hilarious, and we all know that JR has a great sense of humor that ranges from droll to deadly with a side trip to demonic [with respects to Mr. Roberts].

Adam
at least that's the way I read it

Edited by Selene, 20 April 2011 - 05:06 PM.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#24 Michael Stuart Kelly

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:27 PM

Peter,

I agree that Phil is a good guy, but I don't agree that his only problem is cussing. (In the cussing department alone, it's more like--to paraphrase Aristotle--knowing how to cuss at the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way.That's never been easy for Phil. :) )

I view and treat anarchists differently than you. When they get overly negative or snarky, I remember that they are committed to nonviolence initiation-wise. So there's nothing to fear from them.

I can't imagine ever needing to take up arms against one.

Since I trust my own mind in things I have thought through, and since I try to think through the important stuff from the ground up, and I am not easily intimidated by snark. it's all good. What are they going to do to me when they disagree?

Laugh?

Say they disagree?

Get mad?

Well...

OK.

:)

You called anarchists crooks above. I call them pussycats.

:)

The bad guys for me are ones who want to beat me up and/or kill me, take my stuff, destroy what I produce, organize into gangs to do it with more effectiveness, etc. And they do this to people I value (including innocents everywhere).

I haven't found those kinds of folks among anarcho-capitalists yet. Maybe I will one day, but until that day comes...

(meow...)

:)

There's another thing, too. Ancaps are some of the most intelligent people I've met, so their arguments are often excellent premise-checks for me. I have a tendency toward being a true-believer that I constantly keep an eye on. It's embarrassing, but what the hell. I might as well admit it. You can't fix a problem unless you identify it.

I've always been that way, too. One of my striking characteristics as a child was excessive gullibility when I trusted someone. People used to set me up all the time because of that and laugh when I fell for their crap. Sometimes it would backfire.

My mother and father once told me my middle name was not what they had told me since birth. I must have been about 10 or 11 at the time. They laughed up a storm when I finally accepted it. But they didn't laugh so much when a truant officer showed up at our house wanting to know what was going on and why I was going all over the place trying to change all my public records. :)

When I finally fell for Rand, I FELL. Instant Randroid. (I've got stories and stories, but they are too many for here.) It took the longest time and more heartache than I care to remember to get out of that mindset in terms of the bad part--the sweet poison of blind allegiance, but still keep the good part--the vision and dreams.

Discussing things with ancaps keeps me honest to myself in that department. It keeps my concepts honed razor-sharp and alerts me to when I am taking too much on faith (i.e., without verifying it) from someone.

I am grateful to those who can prove me wrong when they can do it. And I'm grateful to those who make me look at my own ideas from different angles, especially when I end up concluding I am more sure I am right than before because I had to look deep into the idea and my understanding withstood the test of logic.

If ancaps have beliefs I don't go along with (and they have a few),

Well...

OK.

(meow...)

:)

Michael

Know thyself...


#25 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

Victor did have a great sense of humor, as Carol pointed out, but our resident expert on language, JR, came up with Victor "Manure," which is hilarious, and we all know that JR has a great sense of humor that ranges from droll to deadly with a side trip to demonic [with respects to Mr. Roberts].


I didn't come up with "Victor Manure," Adam. It was something my father used to say when I was a kid, and I doubt he came up with it either. I'm not sure if Xray is right that Mature himself came up with it, but he might well have.

JR

#26 Selene

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:58 PM


Victor did have a great sense of humor, as Carol pointed out, but our resident expert on language, JR, came up with Victor "Manure," which is hilarious, and we all know that JR has a great sense of humor that ranges from droll to deadly with a side trip to demonic [with respects to Mr. Roberts].


I didn't come up with "Victor Manure," Adam. It was something my father used to say when I was a kid, and I doubt he came up with it either. I'm not sure if Xray is right that Mature himself came up with it, but he might well have.

JR


Thanks. It did seem to be right in your hitting zone, so now I am intrigued. Ms. Xray is usually pretty good with movies and American cinema. Now you have me wondering.

Adam
sorry about the sports reference lol

Post Script:

What did you think of Bernard Malamud's first novel, The Natural

"Malamud, however, began his career with his popular first novel, The Natural, influenced by his love of baseball and his fascination with stories of the mythological quest for the Holy Grail. The novel's allegorical framework blends realism and fantasy in its exploration of the theme of moral responsibility. Malamud employs forces of good and evil to complicate the choices and consequences that face his protagonist."

I am a sucker for this type of story.

**** She was correct!

Victor Manure and that beautiful hunk of junk were names he made for himself

Edited by Selene, 20 April 2011 - 05:03 PM.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#27 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:15 PM

What did you think of Bernard Malamud's first novel, The Natural


Never read it. My antipathy to sports tends to mitigate against my reading novels or seeing movies that focus on that detestable subject. (There are a few exceptions to this general rule, but not many.) I read Malamud's second novel, The Assistant, when I was just out of college. While I was in college, I read some of the short stories in The Magic Barrel. Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors. Nevertheless, I never got around to reading anything else by him. I did see the movie of The Natural with Robert Redford (in an effort to be sociable and please my mother), but I remember almost nothing about it.

JR

#28 Ninth Doctor

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:05 PM

When describing a political theory that has never been tried, like planned anarchy, it must be described in detail, like a scientific theory, or a business plan. Facts of its existence must be presented. “Here it is,” the proponent of planned anarchy might say, “The facts of its existence are shown by the blueprints.”

Reminder, Rand titled her book Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, and she didn’t have a cogent plan for how Government should be financed.

I think we ought to keep this thread on topic, who misses Phil already? Posted Image
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#29 Xray

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 05:25 AM

Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors.

Today's Süddeutsche Zeitung (the leading German newspaper) has a big interview of Philip Roth by the author, translator and literary critic W. Winkler. (Winkler has translated John Updike, Anthony Burgess and Saul Bellow into German).
In the caption, Roth is called 'the most important writer of our time'.
Why do you think of Roth as a 'fraud' and a 'mediocrity'?

Edited by Xray, 23 April 2011 - 09:37 AM.


#30 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:12 AM


Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors.

Today's Süddeutsche Zeitung (the leading German newspaper) has a big interview of Philip Roth by the author, translator and literary critic W. Winkler. (Winkler has translated John Updike, Anthony Burgess and Saul Bellow not German. In the caption, Roth called 'the most important writer of our time'.
What do you think of Roth as a 'fraud' and a 'medioctrity'?


Edit your post again, Xray, so that it's comprehensible. Then I'll take a look at it and, perhaps, reply.

JR

#31 PDS

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:30 AM


What did you think of Bernard Malamud's first novel, The Natural


Never read it. My antipathy to sports tends to mitigate against my reading novels or seeing movies that focus on that detestable subject. (There are a few exceptions to this general rule, but not many.) I read Malamud's second novel, The Assistant, when I was just out of college. While I was in college, I read some of the short stories in The Magic Barrel. Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors. Nevertheless, I never got around to reading anything else by him. I did see the movie of The Natural with Robert Redford (in an effort to be sociable and please my mother), but I remember almost nothing about it.

JR


Okay, now, this is very intriguing, JR's antipathy to sports. It reminds of Ulysses S. Grant's innate antipathy to the sound of music. JR: is your antipathy innate, or an acquired distaste?

Edited by PDS, 23 April 2011 - 09:31 AM.


#32 Xray

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:36 AM

Edit your post again, Xray, so that it's comprehensible. Then I'll take a look at it and, perhaps, reply.

JR

Sorry about my sloppy typing. I have edited it:

Today's Süddeutsche Zeitung (the leading German newspaper) has a big interview of Philip Roth by the author, translator and literary critic W. Winkler. (Winkler has translated John Updike, Anthony Burgess and Saul Bellow into German).
In the caption, Roth is called 'the most important writer of our time'.
Why do you think of Roth as a 'fraud' and a 'mediocrity'?


Edited by Xray, 23 April 2011 - 09:39 AM.


#33 Ninth Doctor

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:28 AM

Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors.

Hmm, I didn’t notice this before. You feel Bellow is a fraud, or a mediocrity, or both? I liked Herzog quite a bit, and I also liked Henderson the Rain King, though somewhat less. I finished Humboldt’s Gift but wasn’t interested in reading more Bellow after that. I’m almost embarrassed to admit that I’ve never finished anything by Philip Roth. He just doesn’t click with me.


Okay, now, this is very intriguing, JR's antipathy to sports. It reminds of Ulysses S. Grant's innate antipathy to the sound of music. JR: is your antipathy innate, or an acquired distaste?

I suspect JR has the same feeling I have, it’s really just disinterest in sports, but when it gets foisted on you, like at a family get together where everyone’s watching the football game and you’re sitting there bored stiff, the feeling turns to antipathy.
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#34 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:32 AM



What did you think of Bernard Malamud's first novel, The Natural


Never read it. My antipathy to sports tends to mitigate against my reading novels or seeing movies that focus on that detestable subject. (There are a few exceptions to this general rule, but not many.) I read Malamud's second novel, The Assistant, when I was just out of college. While I was in college, I read some of the short stories in The Magic Barrel. Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors. Nevertheless, I never got around to reading anything else by him. I did see the movie of The Natural with Robert Redford (in an effort to be sociable and please my mother), but I remember almost nothing about it.

JR


Okay, now, this is very intriguing, JR's antipathy to sports. It reminds of Ulysses S. Grant's innate antipathy to the sound of music. JR: is your antipathy innate, or an acquired distaste?


It's an acquired distaste.

JR

#35 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:02 AM


Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors.

Hmm, I didn't notice this before. You feel Bellow is a fraud, or a mediocrity, or both? I liked Herzog quite a bit, and I also liked Henderson the Rain King, though somewhat less. I finished Humboldt's Gift but wasn't interested in reading more Bellow after that. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I've never finished anything by Philip Roth. He just doesn't click with me.


Okay, now, this is very intriguing, JR's antipathy to sports. It reminds of Ulysses S. Grant's innate antipathy to the sound of music. JR: is your antipathy innate, or an acquired distaste?

I suspect JR has the same feeling I have, it's really just disinterest in sports, but when it gets foisted on you, like at a family get together where everyone's watching the football game and you're sitting there bored stiff, the feeling turns to antipathy.


As he is so often, ND is astute in his analysis here. As a kid, I enjoyed playing neighborhood baseball on a diamond a group of us neighborhood kids built in a vacant lot at one end of my street. I even had a small talent for baseball. I couldn't throw, catch, or run worth a damn, but I could bat. And, as I say, I enjoyed it - up to the age of maybe around 12. Starting about then, I lost interest. This is, after all, a children's game. Why would it go on interesting an adult or even an adolescent? Do we see adults with serious expressions on their faces organizing tournaments and world championships and TV extravaganzas built around the game Go Fish? Or Tic Tac Toe? If I play a game like that now, it's because I'm entertaining one of my grandchildren - or some other little kid.

The other major sports - which, where I grew up, meant football and basketball, never really interested me at all. I had zero talent for either of them and was repelled by the very idea of a game like football, in which one's goal (if one is a linesman, at least) is to knock one's opponent down and trample him. This is a "game"? This is "fun"? Maybe for barbarians, or for people with the intelligence of a mule or an ape. And the only interest I ever had in any sport was in playing it. If I didn't want to play it, I had no interest in it whatever. Sitting in an uncomfortable seat among a bunch of sweating, grunting morons, watching other people (grown men, if you can believe it) playing a game devised for and suitable for people about 10 years old - why would I want to do something like that? Why would I want to watch something like that on television, when I could watch a theatrical film or a documentary instead - or put on some music and read a book?

If this is one's take on the whole sweaty subject and one has the misfortune to grow up in a place where it is believed that people without athletic talent or at least a strong interest in sports are utterly worthless and probably sexually deviant and definitely in need of a good beating - if one goes through the formative years of one's life having sports forced down one's throat in rather like the way corn is forcefed to a goose whose liver is going to become foie gras - one develops, over time, a fairly intense hatred of the whole sweaty, drunken, proudly meatheaded phenomenon.

I'll say something about Roth and Bellow later. Right now I have to get dressed and go to a family gathering where I can turn my back on the TV and the stupid sporting event being displayed on its screen.

JR

#36 PDS

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 11:15 AM



Both of those reading experiences persuaded me that Malamud was a much better writer than frauds and mediocrities like Philip Roth and Saul Bellow, who were being touted along with him at the time as important authors.

Hmm, I didn't notice this before. You feel Bellow is a fraud, or a mediocrity, or both? I liked Herzog quite a bit, and I also liked Henderson the Rain King, though somewhat less. I finished Humboldt's Gift but wasn't interested in reading more Bellow after that. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I've never finished anything by Philip Roth. He just doesn't click with me.


Okay, now, this is very intriguing, JR's antipathy to sports. It reminds of Ulysses S. Grant's innate antipathy to the sound of music. JR: is your antipathy innate, or an acquired distaste?

I suspect JR has the same feeling I have, it's really just disinterest in sports, but when it gets foisted on you, like at a family get together where everyone's watching the football game and you're sitting there bored stiff, the feeling turns to antipathy.


As he is so often, ND is astute in his analysis here. As a kid, I enjoyed playing neighborhood baseball on a diamond a group of us neighborhood kids built in a vacant lot at one end of my street. I even had a small talent for baseball. I couldn't throw, catch, or run worth a damn, but I could bat. And, as I say, I enjoyed it - up to the age of maybe around 12. Starting about then, I lost interest. This is, after all, a children's game. Why would it go on interesting an adult or even an adolescent? Do we see adults with serious expressions on their faces organizing tournaments and world championships and TV extravaganzas built around the game Go Fish? Or Tic Tac Toe? If I play a game like that now, it's because I'm entertaining one of my grandchildren - or some other little kid.

The other major sports - which, where I grew up, meant football and basketball, never really interested me at all. I had zero talent for either of them and was repelled by the very idea of a game like football, in which one's goal (if one is a linesman, at least) is to knock one's opponent down and trample him. This is a "game"? This is "fun"? Maybe for barbarians, or for people with the intelligence of a mule or an ape. And the only interest I ever had in any sport was in playing it. If I didn't want to play it, I had no interest in it whatever. Sitting in an uncomfortable seat among a bunch of sweating, grunting morons, watching other people (grown men, if you can believe it) playing a game devised for and suitable for people about 10 years old - why would I want to do something like that? Why would I want to watch something like that on television, when I could watch a theatrical film or a documentary instead - or put on some music and read a book?

If this is one's take on the whole sweaty subject and one has the misfortune to grow up in a place where it is believed that people without athletic talent or at least a strong interest in sports are utterly worthless and probably sexually deviant and definitely in need of a good beating - if one goes through the formative years of one's life having sports forced down one's throat in rather like the way corn is forcefed to a goose whose liver is going to become foie gras - one develops, over time, a fairly intense hatred of the whole sweaty, drunken, proudly meatheaded phenomenon.

I'll say something about Roth and Bellow later. Right now I have to get dressed and go to a family gathering where I can turn my back on the TV and the stupid sporting event being displayed on its screen.

JR


I wish JR were more willing to say what he really thinks, instead of always sugar-coating things.

Perhaps I will attempt to coax more information about his acquired distaste for sports out of him in the future...

#37 Brant Gaede

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 12:34 PM

The physical danger of football is concussions leading to mental debility later in life to go along with the original debility. You have 300 pound linesmen crashing into each other. I like quality fast-paced college basketball if it involves the University of AZ. Pro basketball is a sick joke drawing down the college talent before it gets properly seasoned. I enjoyed shooting hoops as an adolescent, but was never very good at the game. The one basketball game I went to, as opposed to seeing it on TV, was in college and it bored me silly. Baseball has always been a slow game, but they made it even slower and steroids have ruined the record books. I most enjoyed the Mantle-Marris home-run derby in the 1960-1961 season (or the 1961-1962) where Mantle hit 54 and Marris 61. I saw it on black and white TV. The one sport I like the best, but I'm not insane about, is top-flight pro-tennis. But I'd never go to a tournament. TV only. I can't begin to understand what all these spectators at spectator sports get out of actually being there. Golf is the most idiotic for that. WTF are they looking at? Overall, football is stupidity incarnate. At least in Sumo they don't bang their heads together.

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#38 daunce lynam

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

Interesting. As a reluctant and untalented participant in team sports (I was good at hurdles and gymnastics though) and a lifelong luxuriant in watching them, I think I get an idea of the intensely masculine intellectual slant of your essentially anti=collectivist feelings.

Sweat and beer are just human liquids, the results of exertion and the reward for them however unearned.

#39 Jeff Riggenbach

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 07:52 PM

Interesting. As a reluctant and untalented participant in team sports (I was good at hurdles and gymnastics though) and a lifelong luxuriant in watching them, I think I get an idea of the intensely masculine intellectual slant of your essentially anti=collectivist feelings.

Sweat and beer are just human liquids, the results of exertion and the reward for them however unearned.


Where I live it is quite unnecessary to exert oneself in order to sweat. (Not even slightly.)

JR

#40 daunce lynam

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:33 PM


Interesting. As a reluctant and untalented participant in team sports (I was good at hurdles and gymnastics though) and a lifelong luxuriant in watching them, I think I get an idea of the intensely masculine intellectual slant of your essentially anti=collectivist feelings.

Sweat and beer are just human liquids, the results of exertion and the reward for them however unearned.


Where I live it is quite unnecessary to exert oneself in order to sweat. (Not even slightly.)

JR


I get you. My cousin Cindy lives in El Paso and has not gone outdoors there willingly for 20 years.




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