Has any sentence or phrase turned you off a book?


pippi

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Subject: "Best of sentences, Worst of sentences"

> I found that opening sentence both enticing and exhilirating from the moment I first laid eyes upon it. [Jeff]

> I had exactly the same feeling when reading the passage. Question to Phil (who initially posted the quote here): What was your reaction to this passage? [Xray]

Xray, I had exactly the same reaction you and Jeff did. The two most important parts of a story and often of other things - are the beginning and the end. "Tale of Two Cities" has both - from the refreshingly paradoxical run-on sentence that starts it, to the brief words of a man going to his execution that ends it. Genius is sometimes rule-breaking. Dickens breaks the rules** about run-on sentences pasted together with commas for dramatic, intriguing force. It was like a jolt of caffeine. I wanted to know the ways in which the different contrasting aspects could be true.

**Strunk and White, anyone???

I recall a post where J. Riggenbach criticized my use of run-on sentences, and I replied I had done this for dramatic effect.

It was like a jolt of caffeine. I wanted to know the ways in which the different contrasting aspects could be true.

"Jolt of caffeine" is an apt description. I felt same jolt in reading this very intriguing passage.

He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us. Since it's going to be long, he keeps each of the contrasts short: terse phrases with just a single word changed to an opposite. The phrases have perfect parallelism (best of...worst of, season of...season of, before us...before us). He starts by repeating the tersest possible 'was' and 'of' phrases and then once we are used to that, he lengthens them gradually and alters them with new verbs (but still the shortest and simplest of verbs - 'had', 'were going').

Compare this to a more conventional "on the one hand/on the other hand" introduction an academic might write listing every factor explicitly and abstractly.

I had the feeling the Dickens sentence was bearing down on me like an express train. And I liked it when it ran right over me. I knew I was in the hands of a powerful and interesting writer and I reached out a hand and was ready to grab hold, hang on, hop aboard.

Great analysis, Phil!

Edited by Xray
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Phil wrote about Dickens:

He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us.

And Xray responded:

Great analysis, Phil!

End quote

That was good, Phil.

Except for the following with too many hyphenated words, I rather like this description of Steve Austin’s two friends at NUMA, the husband and wife team, The Trouts.

From “The Navigator,” by Clive Cussler, pages 318-319:

The man was several inches over six feet tall, dressed in razor-creased khakis and a blue - green linen blazer over a pale green shirt. A color - coordinated bow tie adorned his neck. The tall woman at his side could have stepped out of the pages of Vogue by way of a triathlon. The olive - colored silk pants suit rippled around her athletic body, and she seemed to flow rather than walk . . . . She smiled, showing the slight space between her front teeth that didn’t diminish her attractiveness.

end quote

“. . . by way of a triathlon . . .” - that is rather good -

I am enjoying the book. See, Clive Cussler has researched this and he knows the Phoenicians arrived in North America, about three thousand years ago, and left us a surprise . . .

Peter Taylor

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He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us.

He keeps such a long 'sentence' going by substituting commas for full stops. It is not an actual complex sentence with a string of dependent clauses.

Dickens is a piker. Here is a real sentence form chapter 42 of Melville's Moby Dick:

Though in many natural objects, whiteness refiningly enhances beauty, as if imparting some special virtue of its own, as in marbles, japonicas, and pearls; and though various nations have in some way recognised a certain royal pre-eminence in this hue; even the barbaric, grand old kings of Pegu placing the title 'Lord of the White Elephants' above all their other magniloquent ascriptions of dominion; and the modern kings of Siam unfurling the same snow-white quadruped in the royal standard; and the Hanoverian flag bearing the one figure of a snow-white charger; and the great Austrian Empire, Caesarian, heir to overlording Rome, having for the imperial color the same imperial hue; and though this pre-eminence in it applies to the human race itself, giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe; and though, besides all this, whiteness has been even made significant of gladness, for among the Romans a white stone marked a joyful day; and though in other mortal sympathies and symbolizings, this same hue is made the emblem of many touching, noble things -- the innocence of brides, the benignity of age; though among the Red Men of America the giving of the white belt of wampum was the deepest pledge of honor; though in many climes, whiteness typifies the majesty of Justice in the ermine of the Judge, and contributes to the daily state of kings and queens drawn by milk-white steeds; though even in the higher mysteries of the most august religions it has been made the symbol of the divine spotlessness and power; by the Persian fire worshippers, the white forked flame being held the holiest on the altar; and in the Greek mythologies, Great Jove himself made incarnate in a snow-white bull; and though to the noble Iroquois, the midwinter sacrifice of the sacred White Dog was by far the holiest festival of their theology, that spotless, faithful creature being held the purest envoy they could send to the Great Spirit with the annual tidings of their own fidelity; and though directly from the Latin word for white, all Christian priests derive the name of one part of their sacred vesture, the alb or tunic, worn beneath the cassock; and though among the holy pomps of the Romish faith, white is specially employed in the celebration of the Passion of our Lord; though in the Vision of St. John, white robes are given to the redeemed, and the four- and-twenty elders stand clothed in white before the great white throne, and the Holy One that sitteth there white like wool; yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood.

Edited by Ted Keer
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He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us.

He keeps such a long 'sentence' going by substituting commas for full stops. It is not an actual complex sentence with a string of dependent clauses.

Dickens is a piker. Here is a real sentence form chapter 42 of Melville's Moby Dick:

Though in many natural objects, whiteness refiningly enhances beauty, as if imparting some special virtue of its own, as in marbles, japonicas, and pearls; and though various nations have in some way recognised a certain royal pre-eminence in this hue; even the barbaric, grand old kings of Pegu placing the title 'Lord of the White Elephants' above all their other magniloquent ascriptions of dominion; and the modern kings of Siam unfurling the same snow-white quadruped in the royal standard; and the Hanoverian flag bearing the one figure of a snow-white charger; and the great Austrian Empire, Caesarian, heir to overlording Rome, having for the imperial color the same imperial hue; and though this pre-eminence in it applies to the human race itself, giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe; and though, besides all this, whiteness has been even made significant of gladness, for among the Romans a white stone marked a joyful day; and though in other mortal sympathies and symbolizings, this same hue is made the emblem of many touching, noble things -- the innocence of brides, the benignity of age; though among the Red Men of America the giving of the white belt of wampum was the deepest pledge of honor; though in many climes, whiteness typifies the majesty of Justice in the ermine of the Judge, and contributes to the daily state of kings and queens drawn by milk-white steeds; though even in the higher mysteries of the most august religions it has been made the symbol of the divine spotlessness and power; by the Persian fire worshippers, the white forked flame being held the holiest on the altar; and in the Greek mythologies, Great Jove himself made incarnate in a snow-white bull; and though to the noble Iroquois, the midwinter sacrifice of the sacred White Dog was by far the holiest festival of their theology, that spotless, faithful creature being held the purest envoy they could send to the Great Spirit with the annual tidings of their own fidelity; and though directly from the Latin word for white, all Christian priests derive the name of one part of their sacred vesture, the alb or tunic, worn beneath the cassock; and though among the holy pomps of the Romish faith, white is specially employed in the celebration of the Passion of our Lord; though in the Vision of St. John, white robes are given to the redeemed, and the four- and-twenty elders stand clothed in white before the great white throne, and the Holy One that sitteth there white like wool; yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood.

Outstanding sentence. Do you know Friedrich Dürrenmatt's 1986 novel Der Auftrag (The 1988 English translation was entitled The Assignment: Or, on the Observing of the Observer of the Observers)? Each of its 24 chapters is a single sentence.

JR

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Outstanding sentence. Do you know Friedrich Dürrenmatt's 1986 novel Der Auftrag (The 1988 English translation was entitled The Assignment: Or, on the Observing of the Observer of the Observers)? Each of its 24 chapters is a single sentence.

JR

No. But I do remember hearing of an 18-page long (probably in the Loeb Classical Library edition) sentence of reported speech by a Latin historian, Tacitus being my guess. I'll see if I can find it.

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He keeps such a long sentence 'rolling' and 'building' by not tiring us.

He keeps such a long 'sentence' going by substituting commas for full stops. It is not an actual complex sentence with a string of dependent clauses.

Dickens is a piker. Here is a real sentence form chapter 42 of Melville's Moby Dick:

Though in many natural objects, whiteness refiningly enhances beauty, as if imparting some special virtue of its own, as in marbles, japonicas, and pearls; and though various nations have in some way recognised a certain royal pre-eminence in this hue; even the barbaric, grand old kings of Pegu placing the title 'Lord of the White Elephants' above all their other magniloquent ascriptions of dominion; and the modern kings of Siam unfurling the same snow-white quadruped in the royal standard; and the Hanoverian flag bearing the one figure of a snow-white charger; and the great Austrian Empire, Caesarian, heir to overlording Rome, having for the imperial color the same imperial hue; and though this pre-eminence in it applies to the human race itself, giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe; and though, besides all this, whiteness has been even made significant of gladness, for among the Romans a white stone marked a joyful day; and though in other mortal sympathies and symbolizings, this same hue is made the emblem of many touching, noble things -- the innocence of brides, the benignity of age; though among the Red Men of America the giving of the white belt of wampum was the deepest pledge of honor; though in many climes, whiteness typifies the majesty of Justice in the ermine of the Judge, and contributes to the daily state of kings and queens drawn by milk-white steeds; though even in the higher mysteries of the most august religions it has been made the symbol of the divine spotlessness and power; by the Persian fire worshippers, the white forked flame being held the holiest on the altar; and in the Greek mythologies, Great Jove himself made incarnate in a snow-white bull; and though to the noble Iroquois, the midwinter sacrifice of the sacred White Dog was by far the holiest festival of their theology, that spotless, faithful creature being held the purest envoy they could send to the Great Spirit with the annual tidings of their own fidelity; and though directly from the Latin word for white, all Christian priests derive the name of one part of their sacred vesture, the alb or tunic, worn beneath the cassock; and though among the holy pomps of the Romish faith, white is specially employed in the celebration of the Passion of our Lord; though in the Vision of St. John, white robes are given to the redeemed, and the four- and-twenty elders stand clothed in white before the great white throne, and the Holy One that sitteth there white like wool; yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood.

Is is just me, or is Melville indulging himself just a little too much here. The sentence needs to be long, but it's just a little too long, it flags just a bit before its wonderful end.

Also he did not know a damn thing about the noble Iroquois.

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Subject: Whose Dickens is Longer?

> Is is just me, or is Melville indulging himself just a little too much here. [Daunce]

No, it's not just you.

> The sentence needs to be long, but it's just a little too long.

I agree. Melville doesn't do many of the things I mentioned in post #74 above which Dickens did to make it work, to give it balance or internal economy. Plus in sheer quantity the Melville sentence just becomes too much for a single "unit".

Melville includes by my count eight purposes and symbolic uses...and subdivides some of them into further examples:

1. enhancing beauty,

2. implying royalty or "dominion" (with -four- examples of that purpose),

3. racial preeminence,

4. gladness or joy,

5. "emblem of many touching, noble things" (two examples),

6. a pledge of honor, justice,

7. the pomp of kings,

8. divinity or sacredness (-seven- examples).

Crow epistemology.

There's too many of each major division. And making a further subdivision into examples makes it even harder to follow.

Then at the end, instead of a new sentence he suggest a (wordy) contrast or contradictory idea: "yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood."

What's -good- about Melville here is the breathtaking scope of knowledge and instances.

But Moby's Dick needs to be broken up and a little shorter. Less showing off how long his dick is and instead, more like Charlie's Dick. :)

Edited by Philip Coates
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Subject: Whose Dickens is Longer?

> Is is just me, or is Melville indulging himself just a little too much here. [Daunce]

No, it's not just you.

> The sentence needs to be long, but it's just a little too long.

I agree. Melville doesn't do many of the things I mentioned in post #74 above which Dickens did to make it work, to give it balance or internal economy. Plus in sheer quantity the Melville sentence just becomes too much for a single "unit".

Melville includes by my count eight purposes and symbolic uses...and subdivides some of them into further examples:

1. enhancing beauty,

2. implying royalty or "dominion" (with -four- examples of that purpose),

3. racial preeminence,

4. gladness or joy,

5. "emblem of many touching, noble things" (two examples),

6. a pledge of honor, justice,

7. the pomp of kings,

8. divinity or sacredness (-seven- examples).

Crow epistemology.

There's too many of each major division. And making a further subdivision into examples makes it even harder to follow.

Then at the end, instead of a new sentence he suggest a (wordy) contrast or contradictory idea: "yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood."

What's -good- about Melville here is the breathtaking scope of knowledge and instances.

But Moby's Dick needs to be broken up and a little shorter. Less showing off how long his dick is and instead, more like Charlie's Dick. :)

that is a really interesting analysis. I had thought that the masculist literary tradition began in the 20th century when men started to feel insecure and needed to fight bulls and build tall, tall cylindrical buildings.Men in the smugly patriarchal society had other fish to fry I thought, size of fish no object. Maybe I was wrong.

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> I had thought that the masculist literary tradition began in the 20th century when men started to feel insecure and needed to fight bulls and build tall, tall cylindrical buildings.Men in the smugly patriarchal society had other fish to fry I thought, size of fish no object. [Daunce]

> Talk about hoping the poster was drunk when he made that comment. [Ted]

When I constantly see people engaged in a competitive can-you-top-this one-upsmanship, I finally came up with this crude, dismissive phrase: "They're trying to prove whose dick is longer". It was an opportunity I just couldn't pass up when the two famous long sentences here came from someone whose name has a dick in it and from someone whose book has a dick in it.

A bit unfair to ascribe competitive motives to Melville, I know. But it was too tempting a way to end my post:

Can you two literary connoisseurs ever forgive me???

Edited by Philip Coates
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> I had thought that the masculist literary tradition began in the 20th century when men started to feel insecure and needed to fight bulls and build tall, tall cylindrical buildings.Men in the smugly patriarchal society had other fish to fry I thought, size of fish no object. [Daunce]

> Talk about hoping the poster was drunk when he made that comment. [Ted]

When I constantly see people engaged in a competitive can-you-top-this one-upsmanship, I finally came up with this crude, dismissive phrase: "They're trying to prove whose dick is longer". It was an opportunity I just couldn't pass up when the two famous long sentences here came from someone whose name has a dick in it and from someone whose book has a dick in it.

A bit unfair to ascribe competitive motives to Melville, I know. But it was too tempting a way to end my post:

Can you two literary connoisseurs ever forgive me???

Since you two history experts would never let facts get in the way of your male chauvinistic mind sets, you might be interested in the following:

"Bullfighting traces its roots to prehistoric bull worship and sacrifice. The killing of the sacred bull (tauroctony) is the essential central iconic act of Mithras, which was commemorated in the mithraeum wherever Roman soldiers were stationed. The oldest representation of what seems to be a man facing a bull is on the celtiberian tombstone from Clunia and the cave painting "El toro de hachos", both found in Spain.[6][7] "

History...facts...bullfighting

And as to tallness and architecture...

History of Tall Buildings

In ancient history high building constructions are well known for example the Egyptian Pyramides. The highest in Giza is 147 m, but they are not regarded as buildings referring to the definition mentioned, but rather monuments.

tallbuildings.png

History...facts...tallness in structures

Finally, why are you not having a discussion as to whose pussy is tighter?

Or, would that be so uncivil in our non-patriarchal society?

Tea anyone?

Adam

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That wikipedia article section is a bunch of bullshit. Bull fighting traces to Mother Goddess worship. The Indo-Iranian Mithras cult's bull-blood sacrifice has nothing to do with bullfighting, just blood sacrifice. The head and horns of the bull represent the uterus and fallopian tubes in the ancient Goddess religion. This is depicted in pre-indo-european culture across the Mediterranean. See the Minoan culture of Crete. See the bullrunning in Pamplona, Basque Country. This has nothing to do with Rome or any patriarchal culture as such.

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