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Agorism & Left-Libertarianism


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#1 vaguelyhumanoid

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:17 AM

Here are some interesting links pertaining to agorism and left-libertarianism*:

all-left.net
agorism.info
leftlibertarian.org
c4ss.org
radgeek.com
aaeblog.com

*Left-libertarianism should not be confused with movements such as anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian Marxism. It is strongly pro-market.

Edited by vaguelyhumanoid, 31 January 2011 - 10:18 AM.


#2 studiodekadent

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:27 AM

Nice links!

The essential feature of Left-Libertarianism is that it supports the Labor Theory of Economic Value and thus believes "Capitalism" in the Marxist sense of the term (any economic system where owners of capital pay wages to workers to operate said capital) is exploitation.

Other than that, they are pro-market.

I disagree with their economics, but they have contributed greatly to liberty; the individualist anarchists were left-libertarians and a great influence on the modern free-market anarchists (the modern ones being the Rothbard-style ones).
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#3 sjw

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:38 PM

In my experience, left-libertarians are explicitly averse to the discipline of reason. They tend to hate Aristotle, Ayn Rand, or anyone who regards reason as an absolute. On the other hand, right-libertarians tend to be implicitly averse to reason. They tend to claim to love Aristotle, at least appreciate Ayn Rand, are in favor of saying that reason is an absolute, but then when it comes right down to it they tend to be religious in their views.

Left-libertarians also tend to actually be anti-authoritarian (actually, their authority tends to be their own whims). They usually do not tend to worship a single author or movement, but tend to like a smattering of different authors. Right-libertarians like to claim that they are anti-authoritarian, but at the same time tend to worship their favorite author (could be Rand, Rothbard, or Mises).

So, it is apt that they are designated "left" or "right", because they do represent two sides of a false coin.


Shayne

#4 vaguelyhumanoid

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 08:15 PM

Studio, not all left-libs believe in the LTV. The founder of the philosophy, Sam Konkin, did not, nor does Roderick Long or Brad Spangler. All of those people are entirely Austrian in economic theory. Even Kevin Carson incorporates subjective aspects in his interpretation of the LTV. However, left-libertarians usually do use a negative definition of capitalism. I know I have. However, no left-libertarian wants to stop "exploitation" through force.

SJW, you're generalizing wildly. Roderick Long considers himself an Aristotelean and has spoken positively of Rand in the past, and the founder of the left-libertarian forums follows Aristotelean virtue ethics.

#5 studiodekadent

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:10 PM

Studio, not all left-libs believe in the LTV. The founder of the philosophy, Sam Konkin, did not, nor does Roderick Long or Brad Spangler. All of those people are entirely Austrian in economic theory. Even Kevin Carson incorporates subjective aspects in his interpretation of the LTV. However, left-libertarians usually do use a negative definition of capitalism. I know I have. However, no left-libertarian wants to stop "exploitation" through force.


Vaguelyhumanoid,

Sam Konkin is the founder of Agorism. By "Left-Libertarian" I'm including the entire "Free market anti-capitalist" tradition, including the early free market anarchists like Tucker and Proudhon. In short, I believe you have a bit of a Frozen Abstraction (treating a sub-class or some sub-classes as if they were the whole wider class).

I've heard about Carson and his attempt to synthesize the LTV and STV.

And I agree with you; the left-libertarians don't want to use force. Hell, Proudhon wanted Mutualist-style institutions to compete against (and ultimately compete away) capitalist-style (in the Marxist sense of the term) institutions.

I have respect for the left-libertarians, so I'm not trying to bash you or anything.
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#6 sjw

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:24 PM

SJW, you're generalizing wildly. Roderick Long considers himself an Aristotelean and has spoken positively of Rand in the past, and the founder of the left-libertarian forums follows Aristotelean virtue ethics.


Actually you are generalizing wildly. Not that you're honest enough to care, but note how I said "tend to" and "in my experience" etc.

That's OK, I don't expect you to learn to read, or when corrected, to change anything about yourself at all. Keep your head up your ass, that's right where it belongs.


Shayne

#7 william.scherk

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:56 PM

I don't expect you to learn to read, or when corrected, to change anything about yourself at all. Keep your head up your ass, that's right where it belongs.

Jackie, don't pay any attention to Shayne Wissler. He appears to have a bit of a personality disorder; when he finds himself in disagreement with someone, he calls the other person names and denigrates them personally with the first item in range. He cannot stand to be wrong, and if it seems he might be wrong, he calls the other person insane, deluded, stupid, fucked in the head, crazy or worse.

It is sad. A few rounds of cognitive-behavioural therapy might get Shayne closer to realizing his life goal of Master Of The Universe. Or at least give him a chance of getting laid once in a while.

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#8 sjw

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:32 PM

Looks like I brought out the motherly instincts in Scherk. "Don't cry Jackie, he's just a big meanie face, come to momma, there there dear..."

I'm sure Jackie can take care of himself, he doesn't need pandering wannabe mommies of OL to do it for him.

Or at least give him a chance of getting laid once in a while.


Hey Scherk, I don't know why you are fantasizing about my sex life, but I don't hang your way, I'm just an ordinary heterosexual, sorry man.


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#9 vaguelyhumanoid

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:59 AM

Studio, I was using left-libertarian to refer specifically to the contemporary movement, which I'd say was codified by Sam Konkin, though the tendency dates back to Proudhon.

Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.

#10 studiodekadent

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:42 AM

Studio, I was using left-libertarian to refer specifically to the contemporary movement, which I'd say was codified by Sam Konkin, though the tendency dates back to Proudhon.


Thanks for the clarification.
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#11 sjw

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:57 PM

Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.


On the contrary, you're the one attacking me with this characterization, and also, without addressing the facts I pointed out to you above. But I gotta cut the little teenage punk some slack right? Don't just snipe me with ad hominem, address the argument, or take your ball and go home.


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#12 Selene

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 01:18 PM


Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.


On the contrary, you're the one attacking me with this characterization, and also, without addressing the facts I pointed out to you above. But I gotta cut the little teenage punk some slack right? Don't just snipe me with ad hominem, address the argument, or take your ball and go home.


Shayne


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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#13 sjw

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 01:39 PM

Selene, other than providing moral support to hoodlums, what other wonderfully valuable skills do you have? Just curious.


Shayne

#14 Selene

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 01:48 PM

Selene, other than providing moral support to hoodlums, what other wonderfully valuable skills do you have? Just curious.
Shayne


Shayne:

I'm sorry, you must be in possession of some information about Jackie that I am unaware of.

Or, you are using a different definition of the word "hoodlum."
hood·lum (hPosted ImagedPosted ImagelPosted Imagem, hPosted ImagedPosted Image-)n.1. A gangster; a thug.2. A tough, often aggressive or violent youth.

Additionally, am I still pandering, or am I "...providing moral support...," I am so confused about how you perceive my behavior regarding Jackie.

Can you clarify your post, please.

Adam

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

#15 sjw

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 01:56 PM

I'm sorry, you must be in possession of some information about Jackie that I am unaware of.

Or, you are using a different definition of the word "hoodlum."


You have trouble with metaphor?

Additionally, am I still pandering, or am I "...providing moral support...," I am so confused about how you perceive my behavior regarding Jackie.

Can you clarify your post, please.

Adam


Seriously? Pandering is a form of moral support. Are you intellectually challenged?

Is it wrong to rub someone's nose in something when they are intellectually weak/challenged if they are also arrogant, uppity, and dishonest? You make me feel guilty Selene. I wonder if this is from some bad premise I have about protecting the weak even if they are evil, or if it's from noble chivalrous premises. I know what GHS would do, but he's no role model. What do you think, should I be nice to uppity ignorant dishonest but intellectually-challenged punks or not?


Shayne

#16 Selene

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 04:51 PM

Shayne's statement from post #15 of this thread:

"Seriously? Pandering is a form of moral support. Are you intellectually challenged?"


pan·der/ˈpænPosted Imagedər/ Posted Image Show Spelled[pan-der] Posted Image Show IPA –noun Also, pan·der·er. 1. a person who furnishes clients for a prostitute or supplies persons for illicit sexual intercourse; procurer; pimp. 2. a person who caters to or profits from the weaknesses or vices of others. 3. a go-between in amorous intrigues. –verb (used without object) 4. to act as a pander; cater basely: to pander to the vile tastes of vulgar persons. –verb (used with object) 5. to act as a pander for.
Shayne:

Now, I am even more confused. It looks like pandering would be immoral support...

Can you help me out here, as I am even more confused than before.

Adam
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."




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