The Voices in Your Head


syrakusos

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ature does not give a shit what is right and what is wrong.

Yes. :smile:

That's exactly the utterly impersonal objective quality of physical reality which makes it such an excellent judge of your actions. By the consequences of your own actions will you know whether or not they were correct. No one needs to tell you. The real world results of your own actions will always speak the last word.

Greg

You read the message incorrectly. Right/Wrong in the moral or ethical sense have NO PLACE WHATEVER in natural physical laws.

I understand your view. I was only stating my view that utterly impersonal objective physical reality is already passing judgment upon your life simply by the results of your own choices... as well as on mine, and on everyone elses' lives for that matter. In that regard, we're all governed by exactly the same moral law. And for some, it's a blessing... while for others, it's a curse. We all each free choose.

Greg.

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You read the message incorrectly. Right/Wrong in the moral or ethical sense have NO PLACE WHATEVER in natural physical laws.

I understand your view. I was only stating my view that utterly impersonal objective physical reality is already passing judgment upon your life simply by the results of your own choices... as well as on mine, and on everyone elses' lives for that matter. In that regard, we're all governed by exactly the same moral law. And for some, it's a blessing... while for others, it's a curse. We all each free choose.

Greg.

Only a sentient entity can "pass judgement". The Cosmos is non-alive and non-sentient although sentient beings exist within it.

I find your thought processes such as you exhibit them in writing, quite perverse.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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You read the message incorrectly. Right/Wrong in the moral or ethical sense have NO PLACE WHATEVER in natural physical laws.

I understand your view. I was only stating my view that utterly impersonal objective physical reality is already passing judgment upon your life simply by the results of your own choices... as well as on mine, and on everyone elses' lives for that matter. In that regard, we're all governed by exactly the same moral law. And for some, it's a blessing... while for others, it's a curse. We all each free choose.

Greg.

Only a sentient entity can "pass judgment".

I agree. A Sentient Entity is passing moral judgment on all of us in this moment as I'm writing. And that moral judgment is expressed in real physical terms as the consequences of our own actions.

The Cosmos is non-alive and non-sentient although sentient beings exist within it.

Of course not. The physical universe only mindlessly obeys a higher order of laws.

I find your thought processes such as you exhibit them in writing, quite perverse.

Thank you, Baal. I consider that a compliment when it comes from someone who denies the moral causality of his own actions.

The real irony is that we are both still getting exactly what we each deserve in our lives... regardless of our denials or affirmations. :wink:

Greg

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[...] A Sentient Entity is passing moral judgment on all of us in this moment as I'm writing. And that moral judgment is expressed in real physical terms as the consequences of our own actions.

What Sentient Entity?

Also, is it your claim that anything which happens to any particular person is the just and deserved consequence of that person's actions?

Ellen

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[...] A Sentient Entity is passing moral judgment on all of us in this moment as I'm writing. And that moral judgment is expressed in real physical terms as the consequences of our own actions.

What Sentient Entity?

You would experience It as your Conscience... that silent internal knowing of what's right and wrong... regardless of what your intellect and emotions are telling you.

You can prove the existence of Conscience for yourself. When you do something morally wrong... just stop for a moment and observe how your own clever wordy thoughts justify what you do with all manner of complex convoluted excuses, justifications, and emotional blaming (unjust accusations) of others.

Conscience is What your clever devious intellect and transient irrational emotions are arguing against.

The real you is the one watching this process... so just don't get suck(er)ed in. :wink:

Greg

Also, is it your claim that anything which happens to any particular person is the just and deserved consequence of that person's actions?

No.

Every action a person takes sets into motion just and deserved consequences.

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Here's another trick.

In many speedreading systems, you use your first finger to underline the text as you read. This practically forces your eyes to follow it. Many people know that trick and it works. The eye is attuned to follow movement, so it can't help but follow the finger. This cuts down on backtracking, and a nonstop finger even helps cut down on subvocalization. According to reports I have read, just learning this one technique doubles people's reading speed on average.

But wait, there's more! :smile:

Here's an added trick. If you use the first finger on your left hand (for most people) instead of your right to underline the text, this will access the right brain more than the left as the words go in. Believe it or not, this helps you to remember more, but only if you get into a certain mental drift while reading. (At least that's the way it works for me.) Kind of like focused passivity. The reason this works is because the left brain is more analytical and the right brain is more emotional and creative. Emotions are the glue of memory.

One way I use to get into this focused passivity is to ask questions to myself about what I expect to get from the text (gleaned and dreamed up from a preliminary skim of the material), then pretend I am a sponge as I start reading--just soaking it all up.

For those interested, give it a try. See if reading speed and comprehension improve at least a little (or not). Your mileage may vary with mine, but this technique helped me a lot.

As an aside, I also look up words I don't know right on the spot. I find my mind drifts all over the place if I skip this, even if it is just one word. With the computer and electronic readers like Kindle and Nook (I have both), looking up words is a breeze. I come from a generation when we used to have nothing but heavy-ass dictionaries, so this is a Godsend.

My reading has improved, but I am still seeking how to do it better. I find it interesting that the first step starts with the hands.

Michael

Michael,

I just realized I posted a comment directed to you regarding reading with your finger on the wrong thread. So sorry!

Anyway, before we knew my son was dyslexic, his teacher suggested he follow along with his finger when he was reading because that had helped other students who struggled with reading. It didn't work for him until on a whim I told him to try it with his other hand. He's ambidextrous, so whenever something doesn't feel quite comfortable to him when using his right hand, he will try it with his left. In reading, following along with his right hand offers no help, but following along with his left hand is an obvious improvement.

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[...] A Sentient Entity is passing moral judgment on all of us in this moment as I'm writing. And that moral judgment is expressed in real physical terms as the consequences of our own actions.

What Sentient Entity?

You would experience It as your Conscience... that silent internal knowing of what's right and wrong... regardless of what your intellect and emotions are telling you.

So, according to you, each person has a Conscience which knows objective moral law? Yes? No?

Also, is it your claim that anything which happens to any particular person is the just and deserved consequence of that person's actions?

No.

Every action a person takes sets into motion just and deserved consequences.

So, then, you would not claim, for instance, that the June 9, 2011, which hit Japan with terrible destruction and caused damage elsewhere on the Pacfic Rim was a just and deserved consequence of the actions of each person affected? Of any person affected?

Ellen

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And if you respond that that is my view, not yours, which I already know, I will send my ex the Eagle to ravage your aerie.

Wow...

Viscious bitch!

I can work with that...lol

A...

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So, according to you, each person has a Conscience which knows objective moral law? Yes? No?

Not knowing the objective moral law itself... just knowing what's morally right and wrong for each present moment. We're on a need to know basis, so knowing the moral protocol for each moment is all we need to know to live a good life.

Conscience is what your intellect and emotions are both arguing against... and then you decide which one to pick. :wink:

So, then, you would not claim, for instance, that the June 9, 2011, which hit Japan with terrible destruction and caused damage elsewhere on the Pacfic Rim was a just and deserved consequence of the actions of each person affected? Of any person affected?

Ellen

No.

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My impression of moralist is, for the past 30 years he has done things right and watched other people do things wrong, .and he now has time to contemplate the rightness and wrongness of life from his well-earned secure perch.

It's actually my well-earned secure Gulch. :smile:

Today I'd be called a prepper... except that I'm already prepared which makes me a prepped.

With far more of my life behind me than in front of me... there's a nice view of the sunset.

Greg

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So, according to you, each person has a Conscience which knows objective moral law? Yes? No?

Not the objective moral law itself... just knowing what's morally right and wrong for each present moment.

It's what your intellect and emotions argue against... and then you decide which one to pick. :wink:

The description is foreign to the way I function.

Are you describing your own inner proceedings, or what you think goes on in other people's processing? Or maybe both.

Ellen

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So, according to you, each person has a Conscience which knows objective moral law? Yes? No?

Not the objective moral law itself... just knowing what's morally right and wrong for each present moment.

It's what your intellect and emotions argue against... and then you decide which one to pick. :wink:

The description is foreign to the way I function.

Are you describing your own inner proceedings, or what you think goes on in other people's processing? Or maybe both.

Ellen

Just my own personal experience... although everyone is playing by exactly the same moral rules. I don't trust thought or emotion, and instead trust what I see as being right and proper for each moment, which is not a function of either thought or emotion, although I can think and emote after the fact.

If this is foreign to how you function, how your own life is turning out is already letting you know beyond any doubt how well it's working for you. You sure don't need me or anyone else to tell you that.

Greg

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"The real you is the one watching this process... so just don't get suck(er)ed in. :wink:"

A number of us have discussed this notion on this forum before.

Is the real "you" the witness to the myriad internal thoughts clanging around in one's head? I know this is a very "Eastern" view (see here, for instance), but wasn't aware it was a view held by Christians as well.

Can you point me to Christians who hold to this view authoritatively, or is this more or less your take? I am genuinely curious.

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"The real you is the one watching this process... so just don't get suck(er)ed in. :wink:"

A number of us have discussed this notion on this forum before.

Is the real "you" the witness to the myriad internal thoughts clanging around in one's head? I know this is a very "Eastern" view (see here, for instance), but wasn't aware it was a view held by Christians as well.

Can you point me to Christians who hold to this view authoritatively, or is this more or less your take? I am genuinely curious.

This is based on the fallacy of the Cartesian Theatre in which a real you is sitting inside and watching the show presented by your senses.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Nevermind Cartesian, it is almost Catharist, the dualistic heresy which espoused, among other things, reincarnation. The credentes (believers) who transcended the sinful flesh and lived truly Christian lives per their beliefs (and by all historical accounts, they did) were called Perfecti.

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"The real you is the one watching this process... so just don't get suck(er)ed in. :wink:"

A number of us have discussed this notion on this forum before.

Is the real "you" the witness to the myriad internal thoughts clanging around in one's head? I know this is a very "Eastern" view (see here, for instance), but wasn't aware it was a view held by Christians as well.

Can you point me to Christians who hold to this view authoritatively, or is this more or less your take? I am genuinely curious.

I've noticed, too, the similarity between some of what Moralist says and the Eastern idea of Watcher consciousness.

A difference, though, in the particular post you quote (#80) is that there he was talking of immediately intuiting what's right and wrong, and describing himself as rebellious against doing what's right. He doesn't say in that post that he's speaking of himself, but he does in #91. He was speaking (see #91 and his previous posts in the sequence) of what he called "Conscience," which he said we all possess.

Ellen

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"The real you is the one watching this process... so just don't get suck(er)ed in. :wink:"

A number of us have discussed this notion on this forum before.

Is the real "you" the witness to the myriad internal thoughts clanging around in one's head?

Glad to have a chance to answer for myself, because I see that others are already jumping to answer for me. :wink:

Yes. That's my experience. This commonly used idiom is a dead giveaway to this truth.

"...so I said to my self..."

Hey wait, hold on there... if it's all just you inside, then how in the hell can you talk to yourself? If it's just you... then you already know what you're going to say, so there's nothing that needs to be said.

It's so obvious there's a calm silent centered self-reflective listener inside me, and from my own experience that's the real me. I'm not my thoughts and emotions. I'm the one who calmly chooses upon which thoughts I will act, or upon which I will emote, and which ones I will simply let pass by unresponded.

Even right now as I'm writing... I'm observing all sorts of thoughts and methodically choosing which ones to type out in words.

I know this is a very "Eastern" view (see here, for instance), but wasn't aware it was a view held by Christians as well.

Religious doctrines don't guide my life unless my own personal experience of them first proves to me that they actually work in the real world, and not just in my head. I only live by my own real world experience, so that's exactly what I'm describing to you right here and now.

Can you point me to Christians who hold to this view authoritatively, or is this more or less your take? I am genuinely curious.

This is just my own personal direct practical day to day real world experience. It's odd that this would be regarded as an curiosity to simply learn from your own personal life experiences.

Jeez... how do you people make it through life anyways? :wink:

Greg

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