Noah unbelievably bad and no redeeming moments!


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Brant writes:

I have no belief in a Supreme Being--an old white guy up there in the sky.

Neither do I, Brant. :smile:

That's just another ugly false image intellectually created only to negate. If you actually knew for yourself one way or the other, there would be no need to create any false images.

There's a reason that behavior made it into the TopTen. :wink:

Greg

The pictures on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel contain an "ugly false image" of Him?

--Brant

I thought the one of Adam was pretty good

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Brant writes:

The pictures on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel contain an "ugly false image" of Him?

What you are seeing there is obviously not God, but the love of God of the man who painted it. I understand that loving God is a concept which is foreign to you because it's outside your experience. This is why you're having difficulty understanding the good people do as a result of that love.

Greg

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Brant writes:

The pictures on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel contain an "ugly false image" of Him?

What you are seeing there is obviously not God, but the love of God of the man who painted it. I understand that loving God is a concept which is foreign to you because it's outside your experience. This is why you're having difficulty understanding the good people do as a result of that love.

Greg

Frankly, I consider you to be delusional, but a delusional that works for you. If I pretended what you feel I'd be a fraud for I wouldn't feel it.

--Brant

Christianity has a lot of frauds-go-to-church-on-Sunday, some obnoxious some quiet, all hypocrites, not a category for you

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Tony writes:

Not in this life time Greg, but thanks for the thought.

Maybe in the next life... :wink:

(Put in a good word for me, just in case, will ya?)

;)

Of course... it's always a good idea to cover all your bases. Seriously, God revealing Himself is not a matter of our will. It's His business. He made specific promises and never breaks them.

Because imo it is more interesting or fulfilling to find some commonality with individuals instead of constantly stressing the differences, there is one thing immediately apparent in religious people like yourself: That they easily and naturally step through the so-called "is-ought" (false) dichotomy - as though it didn't exist.

Bearing in mind we are always going to be opposed on the fundaments of the "is" (metaphysics, man's nature); and then that there will remain large differences on the "ought" (ethics), though not all the time and not in every way.

"What it is" isn't nearly as important as "what it does". You could just as easily substitute the word "reality" for the word "God" and everything else fits perfectly. So whether or not reality is God is rendered moot when everything functions exactly the same regardless.

For all that, it is no small thing this knowledge I think we Objectivists and the religious share, that the one implies and presupposes the other without a break.

Only have to compare with discussion with the secular- agnostic, philosophically-skeptical individual - who cannot or will not acknowledge the connection from "is" to "ought" and with whom it's soon clear this one essential difference is insurmountable.

Yeah, attitude is even more important than the direction in which the attitude faces. :wink:

Greg

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Brant writes:

Frankly, I consider you to be delusional, but a delusional that works for you.

Because my delusion is harmonious with reality things work out in my favor.

If I pretended what you feel I'd be a fraud for I wouldn't feel it.

That's good. For it is the refusal to accept what is fake that makes the way for what is real.

Christianity has a lot of frauds-go-to-church-on-Sunday, some obnoxious some quiet, all hypocrites...

Don't blame Jesus for Christians...

...they're not His fault. :wink:

Greg

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Tony writes:

Bearing in mind we are always going to be opposed on the fundaments of the "is" (metaphysics, man's nature); and then that there will remain large differences on the "ought" (ethics), though not all the time and not in every way.

"What it is" isn't nearly as important as "what it does". You could just as easily substitute the word "reality" for the word "God" and everything else fits perfectly. So whether or not reality is God is rendered moot when everything functions exactly the same regardless.

Greg

Greg: Therein is the original truth behind the God concept: early man struggling to make sense of nature and existence. In fact, in that context what else could he do? God was a rational explanation.

As far as it goes, 'celebrating-observing reality' equalling the 'worship of God' - coupled with "God helps those who help themselves" - manifesting itself with the very rational(in part)and thriving lives in which most religious do indeed live ... who can cast the first stone? But as you know, religions don't end there.

It also doesn't end with folk practising religions as they please, for themselves and by themselves. As much as I wouldn't dream of imposing my views on any by force, so would you not want 'my kind' to force dominance over you and yours. In reverse, I can respect and appreciate any religious person - as individual - as long I know (as I do know with my friends) he does not want to -let alone attempt to - persuade me to change my convictions by pressure, pressure which is usually carried out by State decrees.

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Tony writes:

Greg: Therein is the original truth behind the God concept: early man struggling to make sense of nature and existence. In fact, in that context what else could he do? God was a rational explanation.

God still is for me... rational objective physical laws governing a well ordered physical universe... and rational objective well ordered moral laws governing the consequences of human behavior... all designed by an intelligent rational objective Creator.

But when people agree on the functional physical and moral reality part, where they think it came from is irrelevant. :smile:

As far as it goes, 'celebrating-observing reality' equalling the 'worship of God' - coupled with "God helps those who help themselves" - manifesting itself with the very rational(in part)and thriving lives in which most religious do indeed live ... who can cast the first stone?

I totally agree.

But as you know, religions don't end there.

... and that's their evil. When I read about the behavior of some contemporary religious leaders, I can believe that they don't actually have anything at all to do with God. This causes the people who don't know God to hate religion and so God gets tarred with the same brush.

It also doesn't end with folk practising religions as they please, for themselves and by themselves. As much as I wouldn't dream of imposing my views on any by force, so would you not want 'my kind' to force dominance over you and yours.

No one has the power to impose their views on me by force. That's because "me and mine" have spines! :laugh:

In reverse, I can respect and appreciate any religious person - as individual - as long I know (as I do know with my friends) he does not want to -let alone attempt to - persuade me to change my convictions by pressure, pressure which is usually carried out by State decrees.

There's always ways to get around any State decree because God created the moral law:

"For every temptation there is a way of escape." :smile:

Greg

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  • 2 years later...
On 4/20/2014 at 9:46 AM, moralist said:

That's because it was the immoral actions of the parents which set into motion the just and deserved death of their first born males.

I fully understand that you completely deny the existence of any causal relationship between the immoral actions of parents and their effect upon the lives of their children...

...and that's why you will never understand how immoral people could set into motion such dire consequences that their children would actually die. This fact could only continue to escape you because you deny your own personal responsibility for the causal relationship of your actions to their consequences.

But not just immorality... stubborn pernicious immorality. For the deaths of the first born males was the last in a long series of lesser warnings for the Egyptians to change their immoral behavior.

There were many plagues that preceded this last drastic well deserved consequence. For a week the Nile was turned to blood and all the fish died. This was Egypt's drinking water supply. Then there was a plague of frogs. Then an infestation of insects. Then wild animals. Then a pestilence that killed their domestic animals. Then a plague of boils on the Egyptians skin. Then flaming hail. Then a plague of locusts. Then a plague of darkness.

The death of the immoral enslavers first born was the last and most drastic consequence which finally secured freedom for the Israelites.

There's a lesson here about successive warnings to cease doing evil:

Whoever ignores a gentle tap on the shoulder...

...gets the two by four over their head they deserve.

Greg

Gee, this sounds like the American escalation of the Vietnam War.

God should have just kicked ass from the beginning, except there goes the drama, and the anti-war demonstrations, Chicago riots and the military draft

Greg didn't say the kids deserved it--he's got a rationale (twisted) for that--he said the parents deserved what happened to their children (when exceptions aren't fitting your generalization the generalization is invalid until fixed with the proper caveats or restructuring)

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On 4/20/2014 at 0:46 PM, moralist said:

That's because it was the immoral actions of the parents which set into motion the just and deserved death of their first born males.

I fully understand that you completely deny the existence of any causal relationship between the immoral actions of parents and their effect upon the lives of their children...

...and that's why you will never understand how immoral people could set into motion such dire consequences that their children would actually die. This fact could only continue to escape you because you deny your own personal responsibility for the causal relationship of your actions to their consequences.

But not just immorality... stubborn pernicious immorality. For the deaths of the first born males was the last in a long series of lesser warnings for the Egyptians to change their immoral behavior.

There were many plagues that preceded this last drastic well deserved consequence. For a week the Nile was turned to blood and all the fish died. This was Egypt's drinking water supply. Then there was a plague of frogs. Then an infestation of insects. Then wild animals. Then a pestilence that killed their domestic animals. Then a plague of boils on the Egyptians skin. Then flaming hail. Then a plague of locusts. Then a plague of darkness.

The death of the immoral enslavers first born was the last and most drastic consequence which finally secured freedom for the Israelites.

There's a lesson here about successive warnings to cease doing evil:

Whoever ignores a gentle tap on the shoulder...

...gets the two by four over their head they deserve.

Greg

YHWH, the child slayer.  Rather than kill those who did wrong, YHWH  prefers to kill infants. 

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On 4/19/2014 at 0:01 PM, Ellen Stuttle said:
On 4/19/2014 at 11:09 AM, moralist said:

"[....] I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing mercy and steadfast love to a THOUSAND generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments."

What a prick and narcissistic intimidator.

Not an admirable fellow, by my standards, the Old Testament God. And I can't say a whole lot better for the New Testament upgrade, although at least the New Testament God has acquired a degree of conscience.

I appreciate Ellen's remarks. The discussion has been down the drain once before and is no prettier backed up from the sump now.  I invite Greg's Glee Club to revisit the earlier muckslinging and epistemological quicksand.  For the brave.  

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11 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

YHWH, the child slayer.  

Hating something that isn't real can be physically toxic to the point of being cancerous, Bob... 

...so you had better have lots of health insurance.

Greg

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5 hours ago, moralist said:

Hating something that isn't real can be physically toxic to the point of being cancerous, Bob... 

...so you had better have lots of health insurance.

Greg

Hate is a high energy emotion.  The most I can manage at my advanced age is annoyance.

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How many times in the history of mankind has one person claimed to know of a supernatural being? The number could be billions of times. How many times have these people tried to gain a value from gullible people who believed them? That answer could be in the millions, with the least onerous value being companionship in belief. The worst? Hucksters have killed and enslaved.

Fast forward and consider human mental development due to better health and education. Add in the last couple of thousand years with Aristotle, Rand, and all the philosophers in who have explained science and rationality. Add in the giant leap in communications from the telegraph, telephone, radio, TV, the internet, social media, and now the enhanced human linkage from the latest brand of phones and texting. Add in the better education and Science still to come.

I think belief in the supernatural has decreased. Falling for religious scams has decreased. Even religions that coerce have a tougher time using thought control in a more media connected society.

Now, if you asked a person today, are all the gods real? They would emphatically say, hell no, all the “old gods” were fictional. If you asked them is the other person’s god real, and a Christian would say the Muslim is full of crap and vice versa. Though humans still have the ability to act on irrational beliefs, the ability to fool some of the people some of the time is decreasing.

Final thoughts. No deity has ever shown itself in modern times. No ghost has ever materialized. And if there is no evidence for a fanciful claim it IS put into the Rubbish Bin of History. How many gods don’t you believe in? Zeus, Odin, 309 Hindu deities, Christ, and Allah. Satan? They are all FABRICATED deities. Their existence is a lie. People who propagandize for any deity are liars, cheats, and immoralists. Greg should admit he is an immoral liar, and change his stage name to “Immoralist.”

Peter    

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4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Hate is a high energy emotion.  The most I can manage at my advanced age is annoyance.

Holding that enmity inside you is toxic, Bob... and you're not even hating anything that's real. Why would you have the irrational need to make something imaginary just to have something to angrily blame (unjustly accuse)?

Greg

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

Holding that enmity inside you is toxic, Bob... and you're not even hating anything that's real. Why would you have the irrational need to make something imaginary just to have something to angrily blame (unjustly accuse)?

Greg

Puhleeze.  Do not pretend to read my mind.  You are wasting your precious time. 

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5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Puhleeze.  Do not pretend to read my mind.  You are wasting your precious time. 

Don't need to, Bob...  all I do is read your own words. :wink: 

YHWH, the child slayer.

They reveal the state of your mind.

 

Greg

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47 minutes ago, moralist said:

Don't need to, Bob...  all I do is read your own words. :wink: 

 

 

They reveal the state of your mind.

 

Greg

I don't have a mind.  I have a very efficient brain.  And  YHWH is a child slayer, if you take the bible account seriously.  And that thing with Abraham and Isaac. That was a barrel of laughs.  "No, don't kill the kid, Abe... I was just fucking with  you"  

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