Who is chicken shit?


BaalChatzaf

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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It's hard to understand the military if you weren't in it, but did Reagan serve? I don't think so. Clinton? Nope. FDR?

Without a military draft it's more and more unlikely a President would have served. I wouldn't worry about that.

Cowardice? No. I wouldn't say so. Not even in the Vietnam years. Other factors were at play. It's easy to enlist and avoid ground combat, for instance. I enlisted to go to photographer's school in Ft. Dix, NJ in the mid sixties. I changed over to Special Forces instead. Ironically, my younger brother as a Marine was volunteered for the same school and became a world-class photographer.

--Brant

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And is not serving in the military necessarily a sign of cowardice?

Negative. The weak sniveling spineless liberal coward John Kerry is proof of that.

It's hardly any secret the animosity Obama has for Netanyahu. In my opinion it's because Benjamin is a man, and Barry isn't.

Greg

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Obama is treading on thin ice... if he crosses the line and betrays Israel, America is doomed.

Greg

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And is not serving in the military necessarily a sign of cowardice?

Negative. The weak sniveling spineless liberal coward John Kerry is proof of that.

It's hardly any secret the animosity Obama has for Netanyahu. In my opinion it's because Benjamin is a man, and Barry isn't.

Greg

Choosing not to go into the military when we are engaged in a war one disagrees with is certainly not cowardly. I'd say it's a smart thing to do. Why chance getting killed for that which you don't believe in?

Of course the draft, as in my case, would negate that. No choice.

-J

Yes, Obama is a girly man. Wouldn't make it thru basic.

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And is not serving in the military necessarily a sign of cowardice?

Negative. The weak sniveling spineless liberal coward John Kerry is proof of that.

It's hardly any secret the animosity Obama has for Netanyahu. In my opinion it's because Benjamin is a man, and Barry isn't.

Greg

Swift Boat John himself

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Obama is treading on thin ice... if he crosses the line and betrays Israel, America is doomed.

Greg

Straight out of scripture. God said to Abraham, those who bless you I will bless and those who curse you I will curse.

That certainly worked in the case of Hitler.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Obama is treading on thin ice... if he crosses the line and betrays Israel, America is doomed.

Greg

Straight out of scripture. God said to Abraham, those who bless you I will bless and those who curse you I will curse.

That certainly worked in the case of Hitler.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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He should have worked a lil faster Bob..

J...

That would be logical, especially with the all knowing powers.

A...

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Obama is treading on thin ice... if he crosses the line and betrays Israel, America is doomed.

Greg

Straight out of scripture. God said to Abraham, those who bless you I will bless and those who curse you I will curse.

That promise even holds hold true in my own life, Bob. And anyone else's life will also be blessed if they choose to take God up on it... regardless of whether or not they believe in Him. :smile:

Greg

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He should have worked a lil faster Bob..

J...

That would be logical, especially with the all knowing powers.

A...

...but that would mean taking away everyone's freedom to choose to do good.

It takes time for people to fully recognize and to acknowledge evil for what it is, and to act on it. It can take years for evil to burrow through the thick sticky layers of our own stubborn denial.

Greg

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So should military service be a prerequisite to becoming President, then?

And is not serving in the military necessarily a sign of cowardice?

Not only should it be a prerequisite to becoming president, it should be a prerequisite to a citizens right to vote-- just like it was in Athenian Democracy.

There is -nothing- positive to say about the history of inexperienced civilian control over the military in this nation; nothing. Not for a single moment since LBJ's weasel micromanagement of Vietnam, which after ten years and 56,000 American lives, this government ended with a 'Never mind, we really didn't mean it.'

Not serving in the all volunteer military is not necessarily a sign of cowardice, but it sure as Hell is a sign of no experience sufficient to direct this nation's military as CIC, which is the number one job of POTUS. (It is not the #1 job of POTUS to 'run the Economy;' that was the failed USSR.)

The only folks in this nation voting on if and how this nation goes to war should be the folks who will fight and die in those wars, period, not the folks who will profit from others fighting and dying in those wars. That is a criminal abomination of epic proportions.

Screw 'civilian control over the military;' it has been nothing but a massive weasel fest.

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Athenian Democracy: anyone could not only speak at Assembly, but had a kind of moral obligation to, if not speak, at least attend and pay attention to what was being said.

But, only those who had passed through the Ephebes (military training and service) could vote in Athenian Democracy. The Ephebes was not only the guardian of Athenian Democracy, but its gateway to Athenian Citizenship. There was a difference between 'denizens' and 'citizens' and only 'citizens' could vote. But denizens could speak at Assembly. Were in fact paid to attend to speak at assembly, if needed.

It was also possible to lose ones citizenship, including, being assessed as 'an idiot.' Idiocy included 'debt to the state.' Debtors to the state paid off their debt to the state as 'slaves' in the state silver mines and/or paying fees to the state. From these fees, rightful denizens, including citizens, were paid to attend Assembly and speak.

It was regarded as idiocy to permit those already in debt to the state to be able to vote themselves additional debt from the state, and so, was not permitted.

Tell me; what is there not to love about Athenian Democracy?

IMO, it requires only one adjustment to transition to modern times: eliminate its old world sexism(women were not allowed into the Ephebes). Make it more like the Israeli IDF today.

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Someone in this nation's past sold us on the idea that inexperienced civilian control over the military was some kind of virtuous thing in and of itself.

Do you know who has been pushing that meme? Inexperienced civilians, justifying their weaseldom; today embodied in the safe deals being made in Georgetown Bistros far from the bloody pointy end of the stick.

They even have most of the military convinced this is a noble idea.

It is B.S. And in practice, it is the E-1s who pay now and pay later with their blood and treasure, and the higher you slide up that E-scale, the more frequently you will find folks arranging their soft landing in Ike's MIC from where to run out the clock in their new role as bleeder of a nation of taxpaying E-1s.

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If there are yet advocates of the idea of 'inexperienced civilian control over the military' who are, for instance, fond of what LBJ did in Vietnam, then I'd love to hear the theory of why permitting some to vote others into harm's way is some kind of virtuous act beneficial to the nation.

Not only that, but in LBJ's case, permitted to micromanage the ways and means and missions and goals and objectives of their bleeding and dying on distant battlefields while the deals in the Georgetown Bistros back at the CronyFest on the Potomac rage on in full glory.

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Was Nixon's resignation really enough?

Can someone explain to me, why after ten+ years of permitting a meat grinder to endlessly grind under 'limited' rules of engagement and 55,000 American lives thrown at 'something?' that ending that conflict with 'Oh-- never mind. We really didn't mean it' didn't end with history's biggest fragging ever?

I will -never- understand that.

There should have been bodies swinging from ropes in DC. Add 535+1+9 to the 55,000 on that black wall -- plenty of room for just a few more -- with a litte spraypaint on the Washington Monument: "And don't ever pull that shit again."

Instead of taking it out on the weasel perps, this nation took it out on the heros.

You know what? Screw -that- nation with a chainsaw.

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So should military service be a prerequisite to becoming President, then?

And is not serving in the military necessarily a sign of cowardice?

Not only should it be a prerequisite to becoming president, it should be a prerequisite to a citizens right to vote-- just like it was in Athenian Democracy.

There is -nothing- positive to say about the history of inexperienced civilian control over the military in this nation; nothing. Not for a single moment since LBJ's weasel micromanagement of Vietnam, which after ten years and 56,000 American lives, this government ended with a 'Never mind, we really didn't mean it.'

Not serving in the all volunteer military is not necessarily a sign of cowardice, but it sure as Hell is a sign of no experience sufficient to direct this nation's military as CIC, which is the number one job of POTUS. (It is not the #1 job of POTUS to 'run the Economy;' that was the failed USSR.)

The only folks in this nation voting on if and how this nation goes to war should be the folks who will fight and die in those wars, period, not the folks who will profit from others fighting and dying in those wars. That is a criminal abomination of epic proportions.

Screw 'civilian control over the military;' it has been nothing but a massive weasel fest.

But those people who will fight are already in the military giving their consent to be sent in harms' way by those with elected and other authority over them. War is a conglomeration of destructive mistakes. Churchill had a lot of military and close to military experience, but that didn't stop him from successfully pushing for the grossly unsuccessful Gallipoli campaign. He then went to the WWI front as a soldier exposing himself to redemptive actual fighting. His strategic and tactical sensibilities had not much improved come WWII, however. He was continually right and wrong. Fortunately he was buffered by his more powerful American ally and couldn't just do as he pleased. Still, he was the necessary British leader. Terribly necessary. Note that when he took over as PM he did one thing: what he could do. Britain was so on its heels it had few choices but to directly react as it could to a waterfall of circumstances. There was no implementation of brilliant strategies. It was all desperation. The desperation of waiting for the New World "with all its power and might" to come to the rescue of the old. So when the US declared war on Japan and Hitler declared war on the US he slept like "a baby" for he knew then who was going to win and lose and it wasn't going to be the allies.

The disaster of Vietnam was all on LBJ's shoulders to start and Nixon's to finish. I knew in 1967 enough of that crap was already too much and left the army. If all this nation's wars weren't completely avoidable except for the political class buttressed by the media class (think William Randolph Hearst), there are only a couple of possible exceptions. Apart from the US body count of the "Civil War," which hit the US not the world, WWI hit the world of Europe and North America right in the gut with unending negative consequences. For that the primary blame is on Great Britain's desperate machinations--successful--to involve the US. Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, fascist Italy, the Middle Eastern mess and WWII followed by communist China, the Korean and Vietnam Wars, the Cold War and now more Middle Eastern crap.

The idea that a man with military experience is therefore qualified in that respect to be Commander in Chief of America's military as opposed to someone with no experience is a fantasy. Both types got the US into unnecessary wars (but see the next paragraph). Eisenhower, however, supports the thesis from that perspective and maybe the first Bush who stopped the first Gulf War without extending it to an invasion of Iraq. His son, with military but no war experience, did that. What a mess.

Note I am mostly referring to wars being fought. As to getting the US into a war think Lincoln, McKinley, Wilson and F. Roosevelt. There you may have something, with LBJ and Vietnam the only significant counter I can think of. Teddy Roosevelt, of course was a big war hawk but not as a war result when he was President. Boy! Did he want to fight the Germans!

--Brant

Eisenhower knew how to stop the war in Korea and did while Obama stopped the war--yeah, right, he "stopped" it--in Iraq, either knowing it would be a disaster--think evil--or not knowing--think ignorant-stupid

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Not only should it be a prerequisite to becoming president, it should be a prerequisite to a citizens right to vote-- just like it was in Athenian Democracy.

Straight out of Heinlein's "Star Ship Troopers"

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Brant:

I for sure acknowledge the commonality, the good the bad, the saints the sinners, the on average, we're average, in both those with and without military experience. But there is an ethical issue that (for me) tilts the scales. Whatever results in the spectacle of that weasel LBJ nightly directing bombing missions in Vietnam has got to be burned. Whatever empowers the unsightly mess that is defense contracting, with folks dealing in safety and comfort of Georgetown Bistros for fun and profit with no incentive at all to see an end to conflict, while at the same time, other Americans are living in the hurt going nowhere by design 24/7 for as long as the political process will tolerate it-- that sick national thing, whatever it is, needs to be blasted to Hell.

I've often thought about the similarities between Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Bush 41. They were among the last centrist American Presidents, shaped, I assume, by their at least similar WWII experiences.

And yet, -- and this is what I can't wrap my head around -- Eisenhower basically gave this nation Nixon, and JFK gave us LBJ. Head-snap. Huh?

Is that what fealty to 'electoral college map' RealPolitiks gives us? We -need- a mix of weasels and non-weasels to lead this nation, to give it 'weasel' balance?

I'd just as soon we not put the weasels in power, but that is exactly what our political process seems to do. It is like a weasel magnet.

Especially the similarities between Eisenhower and Kennedy. Kansas doughboy and NE Patrician son of rum runner? Nonsense. Look at their administrations and values. And why not? That was a much more unified America in that brief post WWII period. But there was something else creeping into America back then, like a disease-- something that, for fun, or sport, or profit or worse -- as part of an agenda to tear apart the greatest nation on earth -- something that manufactured differences between Eisenhower and JFK, requiring of those campaigns a kind of ... circus politics that persists today.

This nation was -robbed- of what was going to be the 1964 JFK-Goldwater campaign when JFK was assassinated. These two colleagues had planned to set a standard for American politics that would have changed politics in America for generations; lost in a split second in Dallas. What we got instead was that shit on his shoes pig fucker scumbag LBJ, followed by that equal scumbag Nixon. (Literally, an LBJ tactic was accusing his political opponents of 'fucking pigs; sure it's not true but they will have to deny it!" That was LBJ.

This nation has never recovered from JFK's assassination. It irreparably broke America. You and I have lived our lives on a sinking, burning ship.

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I was five months away from being old enough to vote for Goldwater--never mind I was in the army; I couldn't vote. Goldwater was the only guy I ever wanted to vote for for the Presidency.

Greg would say we're on the wrong ship. He's got a point.

--Brant

"Stop the tumbrel. I want to get off!"

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I was five months away from being old enough to vote for Goldwater--never mind I was in the army; I couldn't vote. Goldwater was the only guy I ever wanted to vote for for the Presidency.

Greg would say we're on the wrong ship. He's got a point.

--Brant

"Stop the tumbrel. I want to get off!"

Barry Goldwater was the last major party candidate I voted for.

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And just who is chicken shit. Bibi Natanyahu who served in the IDF at the risk of life and limb or our current elected God King Barak Obama who never served a day in the military. Yet this gold brick commands our troops.

Ba'al Chatzaf

By extension, "chicken shit" must refer to anyone who "who never served a day in the military," including Dan Quayle, Rush Limbaugh, Clarence Thomas, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly.

But Jimmy Carter, Mike Dukakis, George McGovern, and Walter Mondale did serve. Trust them more?

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