How to become psychologically healthy?


Nerian

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 79
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Peter writes:

Yes, it is! Well spotted. It's Dr. Manhattan's symbol. He put it on himself and said, "if I am to have a symbol, it shall be one I respect."

Superheroes are good because they embody noble qualities we admire and seek to cultivate in ourselves. They are our modern mythology.

It fascinates me how a hydrogen atom can be so simple and yet so universal that you could go to the outer fringes of the universe and find exactly the same kind of atom.

Greg

Indeed, things are what they are. And the insane complexity that comes out of the basic nature of an atom in terms of all the possible compounds, and interactions and all the emergent properties!

Yet, I'm still seeking a rational conception of an atom. Even though I study Chemistry and regurgitate what I have learned, and can see how the model is very powerful, it seems to me that an 'electron cloud' described by a wave function is not a physical theory. It does identify some characteristics of the electron in the atom, but an explanation is left open.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brant writes:

No you can't.

How is hydrogen something else in one location than in another?

Greg

What I said was "It's different." That statement has the same basic credibility as your statement that it's the same. That it'd be likely the same based on all we know is not what you said. Also, you can't go to the edge of the universe to find that it is the same. No one can. So, "No you can't" on that too.

--Brant

the only reason I posted that was to see if you'd think about what you said

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brant srites:

What I said was "It's different."

How is hydrogen different in one place than in another?

Greg

If I go there and find out how "hydrogen" is "different" I'll report back. You are reporting back without taking the trip. You are most likely right, but you still don't get that I actually have not made the claim that "it's different" only that "it's different" is fundamentally the same finding as it's the same respecting not hydrogen here but "hydrogen" there qua the type of investigation you proposed, not me. There are of course other ways to substantiate the nature of hydrogen way out there using earth-based observations and deductions.

--Brant

this is a matter of how to think about things, but not things unto themselves

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brant writes:

There are of course other ways to substantiate the nature of hydrogen way out there using earth-based observations and deductions.

Yes.

Scientists have not discovered any non uniformity in the any physical laws which govern hydrogen atoms, or matter for that matter. (oooh, a pun :smile:)

And that's hydrogen atoms are the same everywhere in the universe.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Peter writes:

Indeed, things are what they are. And the insane complexity that comes out of the basic nature of an atom in terms of all the possible compounds, and interactions and all the emergent properties!

That complexity is actually quite sane, for it forms the physical foundation of our existence as conscious beings. Our bodies are made of approximately 50 trillion individual cells each with its own purpose. One trillion is a truly mind bending quantity...

One thousand seconds is more than sixteen hours

One million seconds is more than eleven days.

One billion seconds is more than thirty one years.

One trillion seconds is more than thirty one thousand years.

Yet, I'm still seeking a rational conception of an atom. Even though I study Chemistry and regurgitate what I have learned, and can see how the model is very powerful, it seems to me that an 'electron cloud' described by a wave function is not a physical theory. It does identify some characteristics of the electron in the atom, but an explanation is left open.

I'm an electrician so it's more important for me to know what an electron does, than it is to know what an electron is. That approach is what makes chemistry a practical discipline, as it's more about "what does it do?" than "what is it?".

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brant writes:

No you can't.

How is hydrogen something else in one location than in another?

Greg

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

However, he is a very bright man.

A...

Post Script:

Do not understand him at your own risk...

Speaking of which, and I never even thought of asking you, did you investigate your wife's genetic double helix, or, did you let God sort it out within her?

And I am asking you with open hands.

However, this sins of the father, no mention of the mother, "storyline." offends me at a personal level.

No offense intended.

A...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is hydrogen something else in one location than in another?

Greg

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

However, he is a very bright man.

A...

Peacock-Feather.jpg

I feel your knife.

Please don't twist it.

--Brant

fragile and vulnerable (honest) :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the eyes have it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam writes:

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

That explains why Brant kept dodging my direct question. I wanted to hear him make his case.

For the immense span of the universe, the consistency, uniformity, and universality of the physical laws which govern it is remarkable.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam writes:

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

That explains why Brant kept dodging my direct question. I wanted to hear him make his case.

For the immense span of the universe, the consistency, uniformity, and universality of the physical laws which govern it is remarkable.

Greg

I sympathize with having awe for existence. However, one mustn't forget that the universe with its consistency, uniformity, and universality could not be otherwise.

There's something interesting about life arising in it too. It means that the universe could not have existed such that life was impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nerian #63 said

It means that the universe could not have existed such that life was impossible.

Not to put too fine a point on it here,but.. the implication of this statement can serve as the basis to lead one astray. As a concept 'universe' means the totality of existence taken as a whole, life exists is was and forever will be 'part' of the universe. The universe is not a place , which is one reason why it is so difficult to figure out where it came from :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam writes:

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

That explains why Brant kept dodging my direct question. I wanted to hear him make his case.

For the immense span of the universe, the consistency, uniformity, and universality of the physical laws which govern it is remarkable.

Greg

That's a valid working assumption until the appearance of any contrary data.

--Brant

no, I was not "_______ ____ ___" nor was I, especially, "____ _______ ____ ___."

but it's been posting fun

(until Adam took my T-bird away)

at least now I don't have to get on board Greg's damn spaceship (close call)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well you've already done it. I haven't got any conquests haha. Clearly you've gotten it out of your system. Maybe I need to chase tail to get it out of my system. I agree one mustn't derive one's whole self worth, self esteem and happiness from the opinions of other people and especially not based on whether or not girls like you. I guess what I want is a body that I feel good in and strong pride, self esteem and positivity. I believe I've been making some progress towards these ends.

Okay. Never let it be thought that I'm trying to put you off "fun". If I discovered that fun wasn't always pleasure and pleasure wasn't always happiness (more, that it is on occasions, against happiness) it is for you to try out for yourself. Who listened to older people's advice anyway? Heh. I appreciate the sort of peer pressure - more than ever today - which a youngster in society is hemmed in by, and while it's not always wrong - there's one thing to bear in mind: Who's standards do you live by? (And choose to live by?)

All conventions of behaviour- or conventions of attractiveness - don't have to be automatically discarded. They do however need to be questioned and assessed, constantly. Don't let others' premises become your own, is what I'm getting at.

Finding your own self-authority in life, sometimes apart from all this orthodoxy, starts this minute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is hydrogen something else in one location than in another?

Greg

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

However, he is a very bright man.

A...

Peacock-Feather.jpg

I feel your knife.

Please don't twist it.

--Brant

fragile and vulnerable (honest) :rolleyes:

Fragile. Right. Like this guy:

honey_badger_vs_ratel_photo.jpg

You're just trying to sucker me into a fight. Not going for it. I thought "Peacock Feathers" (which I think when I see dead end semantic games) and thought it would be funny to post the picture. No offense meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the eyes have it...

Cutest thing you've ever posted. And "have it" they do.

--Brant

I honestly have no idea what you guys have been on about for quite some time now lol.

Well you've already done it. I haven't got any conquests haha. Clearly you've gotten it out of your system. Maybe I need to chase tail to get it out of my system. I agree one mustn't derive one's whole self worth, self esteem and happiness from the opinions of other people and especially not based on whether or not girls like you. I guess what I want is a body that I feel good in and strong pride, self esteem and positivity. I believe I've been making some progress towards these ends.

Okay. Never let it be thought that I'm trying to put you off "fun". If I discovered that fun wasn't always pleasure and pleasure wasn't always happiness (more, that it is on occasions, against happiness) it is for you to try out for yourself. Who listened to older people's advice anyway? Heh. I appreciate the sort of peer pressure - more than ever today - which a youngster in society is hemmed in by, and while it's not always wrong - there's one thing to bear in mind: Who's standards do you live by? (And choose to live by?)

All conventions of behaviour- or conventions of attractiveness - don't have to be automatically discarded. They do however need to be questioned and assessed, constantly. Don't let others' premises become your own, is what I'm getting at.

Finding your own self-authority in life, sometimes apart from all this orthodoxy, starts this minute.

Good stuff. I still have a problem understanding what i should do apart from rational things like earn money and gain knowledge. If I can't listen to my emotions unless I know the cause then I must abandon most things that are fun. Or else I can just do things I like that I think will make me feel good and achieve them - having fun doing whatever is fun to me baring obviously self destructive things like meth and getting drunk regularly - but not know if they are ultimately actual values lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nerian,

Why not use induction? Do it if it feels good, then later reflect on it. After you do this for a while, you will start to see patterns emerge that you can evaluate and decide if you want to keep.

Then you move into a different problem. How to keep the patterns, or how to get rid of them, or how to contain their growth and keep them manageable, etc.

And use some common sense. If you see people going down the tubes like with excessive drinking, put that on the scale and don't hide from the fact. You can see it so use your eyes.

By using common sense you would think something like this: I like the buzz from drinking and I refuse to deny that, but look what happened to those folks over there when they took it too far. That will probably happen to me if I do it their way, too. So I wonder what the happy medium is...

Then keep doing what makes you feel good, tweaking and reflecting. (The example is drinking, but you can apply this thinking to anything that makes you feel good.)

I think you will find this is a much better guide for you than to try to find some rule or insight from another person that will allow you to make an automatic choice and get an automatic response from your own brain. I speak from experience.

I fucked up a lot and paid the price precisely because of that. You don't have to.

And it was common sense--taking common sense seriously--that helped a lot for me to clean up the mess I had made of my life.

The thing about common sense is that it is a good standard you can use, test and/or discard without a whole lot of formality. In other words, it keeps you in the driver's seat for judging your own actions. You can always build on common sense and refine it into more hardened principles, etc. It is very hard to build anything on top of a principle that comes from someone else when you have doubts that won't go away about it.

I found out the hard way there is no magic bullet. You have to use your brain.

:)

And I mean you use it. You. Alone. Nobody else. Not you running someone else's program on it.

Oddly enough, it was a great relief to me when I embraced that idea.

And the idea that it's OK to be wrong. Just admit it when I realize it (which stings) and correct it. Then learn to love that process, which I now do. It's like putting alcohol on a cut. It stings, but I know that the sore will heal much faster that way than if left on its own. I actually like that sting now (but it still hurts :) ).

Simple and not very hard at all. God was that a relief!

I love me.

:)

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is hydrogen something else in one location than in another?

Greg

It's not.

He is just fucking with you.

However, he is a very bright man.

A...

Peacock-Feather.jpg

I feel your knife.

Please don't twist it.

--Brant

fragile and vulnerable (honest) :rolleyes:

Fragile. Right. Like this guy:

honey_badger_vs_ratel_photo.jpg

You're just trying to sucker me into a fight. Not going for it. I thought "Peacock Feathers" (which I think when I see dead end semantic games) and thought it would be funny to post the picture. No offense meant.

Mikee (Michael), I thought the Peacock was funny as hell for the "very bright guy." I can handle "bright," but "brilliant" would have pushed me into overt narcissism if I agreed with it. Objectively speaking any real brightness if not brilliance I have is from living for 70 years and the way I've structured my brain with many hooks to catch the accumulation of knowledge on with a pretty good job of integrating it. If you read the stuff I wrote 25 years ago, no one would think it was brilliant or "bright." (Google my name and Fort Freedom.) Anyway, I think "bright" is too light and "brilliant"--whatever and wherever that is--much too heavy. I do have a gift for inverting and converting material with some humor in a bantering context. My ego is wrapped up in truth seeking for the most part as opposed to impressing people, both somethings I'm hardly perfect at.

No, I'm not a badger, but that's even funnier than the peacock. I do have some of both in me. I'm trying to cultivate the former as I'm trying to get from a class B+ male to Alpha status.

--Brant

(I hear it's good for getting laid)

if I'm too full of myself then so are most people

I frequently go too far and overdo it to the point of having to apologize or backing off, but it's worse for me not to go far enough (this doesn't necessarily apply to existential activity; that can get you or someone else really hurt)

the only reason I'm on OL is the brainy people who come here; there is no other Objectivist Internet place that has any appeal to me; it's all due to the owner's applied attitude and standards. (Because I'm here: that would be a tautology, no?)

(I know a lot all the way down, but I stay in the shallow end of the pool)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nerian,

Why not use induction? Do it if it feels good, then later reflect on it. After you do this for a while, you will start to see patterns emerge that you can evaluate and decide if you want to keep.

Then you move into a different problem. How to keep the patterns, or how to get rid of them, or how to contain their growth and keep them manageable, etc.

And use some common sense. If you see people going down the tubes like with excessive drinking, put that on the scale and don't hide from the fact. You can see it so use your eyes.

By using common sense you would think something like this: I like the buzz from drinking and I refuse to deny that, but look what happened to those folks over there when they took it too far. That will probably happen to me if I do it their way, too. So I wonder what the happy medium is...

Then keep doing what makes you feel good, tweaking and reflecting. (The example is drinking, but you can apply this thinking to anything that makes you feel good.)

I think you will find this is a much better guide for you than to try to find some rule or insight from another person that will allow you to make an automatic choice and get an automatic response from your own brain. I speak from experience.

I fucked up a lot and paid the price precisely because of that. You don't have to.

And it was common sense--taking common sense seriously--that helped a lot for me to clean up the mess I had made of my life.

The thing about common sense is that it is a good standard you can use, test and/or discard without a whole lot of formality. In other words, it keeps you in the driver's seat for judging your own actions. You can always build on common sense and refine it into more hardened principles, etc. It is very hard to build anything on top of a principle that comes from someone else when you have doubts that won't go away about it.

I found out the hard way there is no magic bullet. You have to use your brain.

:smile:

And I mean you use it. You. Alone. Nobody else. Not you running someone else's program on it.

Oddly enough, it was a great relief to me when I embraced that idea.

And the idea that it's OK to be wrong. Just admit it when I realize it (which stings) and correct it. Then learn to love that process, which I now do. It's like putting alcohol on a cut. It stings, but I know that the sore will heal much faster that way than if left on its own. I actually like that sting now (but it still hurts :smile: ).

Simple and not very hard at all. God was that a relief!

I love me.

:smile:

Michael

The others have hijacked the thread lol.

Anyway, thank you for that insight. I like your reasoning. But is doing what feels good not just hedonism or whim worship? I think this may be a bit of objectivist ethics that has not been properly figured out. Sure, man needs values. Man needs to be productive, and not act on whim on the important issues, but it's clear there are optional values and non-destructive indulgences, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the eyes have it...

Cutest thing you've ever posted. And "have it" they do.

--Brant

I honestly have no idea what you guys have been on about for quite some time now lol.

Yeah, it's gotten esoteric. To cut to the chase, what Adam means is that knowlwdge is based on observation and the back and forth between Greg and me is essentially trite because neither of us can get very far off the planet to get a different perspective and we were arguing about perspective--or at least I tried to; Greg didn't.

--Brant

so Greg won, but I don't know if he knows it--that by his not acknowledging the trite point I was trying to make I hung myself with it with too many posts (I was dancing with myself--still am) making a big deal out of a small deal (aka bloat)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But is doing what feels good not just hedonism or whim worship?

Peter,

Sure, if you take away the timeline and the rest of it.

But let's go with your doubt. When you do something that feels good and there is no rational reason for you doing it, what should you do instead? Do something that feels bad to you? Do something that sucks the joy of living right out of you? Feel guilty?

Is that more rational?

:smile:

Humans don't live in frozen time. We live in waves. There's a time for feeling and a time for thinking. Integrating thinking and feeling doesn't mean doing deep reflection at the very moment you are laughing your ass off or having an orgasm. You just let go at those times. But then you do the deep thinking when the thinking time comes around.

The thinking stage is where you will gradually choose to keep the things that make you feel real good and will benefit your life, eliminate those that will do you harm in the end, and learn how to balance things that are great in small quantities, but bad in excess.

In other words, you don't have a choice about unexpectedly feeling great. That will happen at times whether you want to or not. You do have a choice to recognize it and/or stifle it and/or encourage it.

And you do have a choice about whether you think about it later.

Aristotle said it best--for anger and spending money of all things (Nicomachean Ethics--see the Wikiquote here). But it also applies to feeling good.

Any one can get angry — that is easy — or give or spend money; but to do this to the right person, to the right extent, at the right time, with the right motive, and in the right way, that is not for every one, nor is it easy.

Anyone can feel good. That is easy. Note, he did not say that is bad. Or irrational. Or hedonistic. And so on. It's just easy because it happens and you let 'er roll.

But how do you know about all the rest?

There's no way to know instantly. That's why I suggest just going with the flow--with no guilt--initially until you have a body of experience and patterns built up you can evaluate. Then do your thinking on it. There's no reason on earth why this is wrong because it takes time.

In other words, you evaluate the pleasure and what it does to your life together. And you can only know what it does to your life by seeing the patterns. And patterns mean more than once. Time. Repetition. You don't evaluate pleasure isolated from that. It's just pleasure. So when it happens, enjoy it. :smile:

Those who seek pleasure and, in their thinking, divorce it from what it does to their lives are the hedonists and whim worshipers. I'm not suggesting that at all.

But I am suggesting that you have a blast when pleasure happens, even if it is something you will not keep in your life after thinking it over. (These cases give you great stories to tell later. :smile: )

And I am suggesting you use your common sense when going into an unknown pleasure. For instance, I believe it would be a very stupid thing to shoot up heroin and imagine you will only do it once when you see all those heroin addicts in front of you out in the culture. Or it would be a stupid thing to cheat on a loved one if exclusivity is important to your partner (and most times, even if it isn't :smile: ).

But, for example, if you have a fling while single, realize this person is not for you but, because break-ups are hard and complicated, find yourself in bed with that person again without really meaning to do that, what's wrong with having a hell of a hump while you're humping? It's happening. It might have been stupid to get there, but it's happening. So let it be great while it's happening. When it's over and some dust settles, that's when you let your common sense kick in and you end it for real. Pleasure and pain, but no guilt. Common sense.

If you just string the person along for easy sex after you know better, though, and you feel guilty about that, well you should, you bastard. :smile:

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But is doing what feels good not just hedonism or whim worship?

Peter,

Sure, if you take away the timeline and the rest of it.

But let's go with your doubt. When you do something that feels good and there is no rational reason for you doing it, what should you do instead? Do something that feels bad to you? Do something that sucks the joy of living right out of you? Feel guilty?

Is that more rational?

:smile:

Humans don't live in frozen time. We live in waves. There's a time for feeling and a time for thinking. Integrating thinking and feeling doesn't mean doing deep reflection at the very moment you are laughing your ass off or having an orgasm. You just let go at those times. But then you do the deep thinking when the thinking time comes around.

The thinking stage is where you will gradually choose to keep the things that make you feel real good and will benefit your life, eliminate those that will do you harm in the end, and learn how to balance things that are great in small quantities, but bad in excess.

In other words, you don't have a choice about unexpectedly feeling great. That will happen at times whether you want to or not. You do have a choice to recognize it and/or stifle it and/or encourage it.

And you do have a choice about whether you think about it later.

Aristotle said it best--for anger and spending money of all things (Nicomachean Ethics--see the Wikiquote here). But it also applies to feeling good.

Any one can get angry — that is easy — or give or spend money; but to do this to the right person, to the right extent, at the right time, with the right motive, and in the right way, that is not for every one, nor is it easy.

Anyone can feel good. That is easy. Note, he did not say that is bad. Or irrational. Or hedonistic. And so on. It's just easy because it happens and you let 'er roll.

But how do you know about all the rest?

There's no way to know instantly. That's why I suggest just going with the flow--with no guilt--initially until you have a body of experience and patterns built up you can evaluate. Then do your thinking on it. There's no reason on earth why this is wrong because it takes time.

In other words, you evaluate the pleasure and what it does to your life together. And you can only know what it does to your life by seeing the patterns. And patterns mean more than once. Time. Repetition. You don't evaluate pleasure isolated from that. It's just pleasure. So when it happens, enjoy it. :smile:

Those who seek pleasure and, in their thinking, divorce it from what it does to their lives are the hedonists and whim worshipers. I'm not suggesting that at all.

But I am suggesting that you have a blast when pleasure happens, even if it is something you will not keep in your life after thinking it over. (These cases give you great stories to tell later. :smile: )

And I am suggesting you use your common sense when going into an unknown pleasure. For instance, I believe it would be a very stupid thing to shoot up heroin and imagine you will only do it once when you see all those heroin addicts in front of you out in the culture. Or it would be a stupid thing to cheat on a loved one if exclusivity is important to your partner (and most times, even if it isn't :smile: ).

But, for example, if you have a fling while single, realize this person is not for you but, because break-ups are hard and complicated, find yourself in bed with that person again without really meaning to do that, what's wrong with having a hell of a hump while you're humping? It's happening. It might have been stupid to get there, but it's happening. So let it be great while it's happening. When it's over and some dust settles, that's when you let your common sense kick in and you end it for real. Pleasure and pain, but no guilt. Common sense.

If you just string the person along for easy sex after you know better, though, and you feel guilty about that, well you should, you bastard. :smile:

Michael

Thank you so much for this. I feel lighter.

So true. What else am I to do? What makes me feel bad? Haha. Such a salient point. Thank you. :)

So there are some virtues like honesty that are overarching, you don't lie to gain a value, and you need not experiment with that, but with the details you really need to live life feet on the ground so to speak, in context, learning as you go about the specifics and details, not feeling guilty, experimenting with what works, what makes you feel joy/enjoy life, and so on while adjusting accordingly to feedback with common sense reasoning afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now