Prager University: The Middle East Problem

[Dennis Hardin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4

Prager's motto: "Give us 5 minutes, we will give you a semester."

You might find the other Prager University courses interesting as well, but keep in mind that the man is totally gung-ho on religion. "Men and the Power of the Visual" reflects Prager's steadfast antagonism to the current orthodoxy which minimizes male-female differences.

[Mike11]

Cute.

[anthony]

Yeah -

Sometimes you've just got to state the obvious, with a broad brush.

People conveniently forget, or get lost in the tiny brush strokes.

The 'M.E. problem' is a huge imbalance of reality, of reason, and of good intentions:

a morality gap.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Prager claimed that the Hamas motto is: "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

I thought it was a good idea to have an original source for that, but I can't find it on Google. All I find when referencing it is: "That is a direct quote from a Hamas spokesman..." or "As Hamas frequently says..."

Does anyone know where Hamas or a Hamas spokesman has said this?

I don't doubt that Hamas is capable of saying this. I just can't find it.

Michael

[Selene]

Prager claimed that the Hamas motto is: "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

I thought it was a good idea to have an original source for that, but I can't find it on Google. All I find when referencing it is: "That is a direct quote from a Hamas spokesman..." or "As Hamas frequently says..."

Does anyone know where Hamas or a Hamas spokesman has said this?

I don't doubt that Hamas is capable of saying this. I just can't find it.

Michael

Professor Paul Eidelberg

March 11, 2010

NewsWithViews.com

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, once declared: “We are going to win because they love life and we love death.” Let’s translate this into an Islamic meaning horizon: “We are going to win because infidels love life, something transient, whereas we Muslims love death, something eternal.”

http://www.newswithviews.com/Eidelberg/paul126.htm

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us".

-Golda Meir

Does not seem to be a solid reference for that "quote" other than the professor above.

Adam

[Mikee]

I got a lot of hits googling [ hamas "jews love life" ]

This one has names: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KE19Ak01.html

"

What is it that Hamas loves? According to numerous of its spokesmen in repeated statements over the years, what it loves is death. "We love death more than the Jews love life," Hamas says. Hamas leader Ismail Haniya told an American interviewer last year that his fighters were willing to die, whereas "the Jews love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die". The leader of Hamas' ally, the Iranian-backed Shi'ite organization Hezbollah, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, said, "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take from them. We will win because the Jews love life, and we love death."

"

[equality72521]

a friend and I were actually discussing this recently and he came up with a very good idea. (Note: He is a former Mormon who was very into religious ref.) In a nutshell he said "Do you know how to solve the problem with the middle east? its quite simple. Pick 5 cities, one in Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, and for good measure another one in Iran. Then bomb the shit out of those cities. Don't stop there. Fill several 747's with salt and then salt the earth of those cities. There is only so much farmable land in the middle east. How many cities do you think you would need to do that to after that? none."

Edited November 10, 2010 by equality72521

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Mike,

The Asian Times in your link is a bit better than what I mentioned, but not by much. Look at the sources within that quote. I'll list them:

• Numerous Hamas spokesmen in repeated statements over the years.
• Hamas leader, Ismail Haniya, is quoted talking to "an American interviewer."
• Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah (Hezbollah) is quoted without saying where he said what he said--possibly talking to the same "American interviewer" as above.

Those are the sources for the article.

Not good.

Isn't there any original publication anywhere? Like something published by Hamas, since this phrase according to Prager is supposed to be its motto?

This "someone said" and "he said to someone" crap is useless. It makes this stuff sound like cheap deceptive propaganda. This issue is too important for that.

Here is the kind--and quality--of quote I am looking for:

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) of 18 August 1988

From the Covenant:

"... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Now that's a quote with a link to a document issued by Hamas. But even an interview where all parties are identified in a credible news organization would do.

How come Prager doesn't do something like that?

Preaching to the choir is beneficial up to a point--and a small point at that. For a wider audience and some kind of persuasion power, you need something more credible than an opinion and a decent propaganda video production.

Michael

EDIT: Here is another translation: Hamas Charter, Unabridged (1988)

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning.

(Hassan al-Banna is not mentioned in this one.)

[DavidMcK]

This may all be true, but it isn't relevant to one question: What does this have to do with the U.S.? We have nothing to gain from the Middle East, it isn't our battle. No mention of how Israeli's torture, push Palestinians out of their homes, violate human rights etc. To be against one side doesn't mean you are for the other; it is entirely possible that both sides are wrong, and the U.S. wins by staying out militarily, and just doing some window dressing diplomacy knowing that a diplomatic solution isn't likely.

[Mike11]

The first link, Prager University (perhaps a sister organisation of the Cropper Lyceum), is obviously a right wing christian propaganda site. The second link, NWV, is telling me how to fight the NWO Illuninati Conspiracy.

Its always funny to me which areas the rational individualists find their friends in.

[Dennis Hardin]

Prager claimed that the Hamas motto is: "We love death as much as the Jews love life."

I thought it was a good idea to have an original source for that, but I can't find it on Google. All I find when referencing it is: "That is a direct quote from a Hamas spokesman..." or "As Hamas frequently says..."

Does anyone know where Hamas or a Hamas spokesman has said this?

I don't doubt that Hamas is capable of saying this. I just can't find it.

Michael

Michael:

Azzam Tamimi: ‘We love death. They love life.’

The first link, Prager University (perhaps a sister organisation of the Cropper Lyceum), is obviously a right wing christian propaganda site...

Joel:

Dennis Prager is Jewish, but does everything he can to fortify Christianity because of his belief in the ethical foundation of the Ten Commandments. He often says that he values clarity over agreement, which is why I like him. His emphasis on logic and clarity makes it fairly easy to separate his faith-based mumbo-jumbo from his rational arguments. Rational secularists scarcely have a monopoly on truth.

[anthony]

That "motto" is nothing new for Israelis, since there has been a constant harangue from Arab broadcasts for 50 years, all making similar pronouncements.

Notice that this is made as a boast, not a confession of weakness or evil.

That it is a statement of comparative morality, and also, a statement of intent.

That the USA remains an ally of Israel should be questioned, of course - and far be it from me to suggest that it gets involved in one more bloody military campaign, in fact I hope you don't - but practical reasons, and self-interest, would point that way.

Morally, an Objectivist should have no problem supporting the faction that - ironically, provided by death-loving Hezbollah's glowing testimonial to them - values life above everything.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dennis,

A hate blog is your source?

Gimmee a break.

If I were not familiar with this (I have heard Osama bin Laden himself say on video--I think it was in a documentary and I can find it if need be--that he worships death while the West worships life), I would think you have something to hide.

Why use crappy sources when credible things can be found?

Is the urge to spin hatred more important than presenting the truth through objective facts?

It's not as if there is nothing out there.

Michael

EDIT: Here, let me help--a set of links organized at the Jewish Virtual Library. I haven't been through all these videos from Palestinian TV, but from what I have viewed, I have not heard Prager's alleged Hamas motto yet. What's a mind blower for me is that there is plenty of despicable stuff on these videos that can be used. Why did Prager make that motto up? Does he want to be discredited? (If I can't find a reasonable source for that "motto"--nor anyone else--I can only conclude Prager made it up as propaganda.)

Palestinian Videos Showing Incitement, Glorification of Terror and Anti-Semitism

[equality72521]

This may all be true, but it isn't relevant to one question: What does this have to do with the U.S.? We have nothing to gain from the Middle East, it isn't our battle. No mention of how Israeli's torture, push Palestinians out of their homes, violate human rights etc. To be against one side doesn't mean you are for the other; it is entirely possible that both sides are wrong, and the U.S. wins by staying out militarily, and just doing some window dressing diplomacy knowing that a diplomatic solution isn't likely.

David,

First there is lots to gain from our relations with Israel. While I do agree that we should cut Govt funding (I support private funding of Israel), Israel is a prime location for launching attacks against middle eastern powers. If you do not believe that Iran is a threat than you need to look more closely at the facts (side note WikiLeaks proved bush was right about WMD's in Iraq). Something else we must consider is the link between the US and Israel and how that would be viewed and embolden our enemies over there. As to Israeli's torture? seriously. A nation has the right to defend itself. Terrorists have no rights. As to pushing the Palestinians out. They ought to push them all out. Expel the lot of them out of gaza, it was a mistake to ever return it to begin with. When will the Israel's learn that you dont give land to your enemies because it just means they can launch their rockets at you closer than before.

The greatest flaw with America's policy in the middle east is that we are nation building. We need to bomb the shit out of our enemies and then leave. dont democracy build, dont nation build. Bomb them and let them rebuild on their own.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Equality,

How far are you going to take this bombing crap?

You said it already a few times and I let it go.

Enough, already.

I don't like kiiling women and children and I don't like people who preach that.

Michael

[equality72521]

Equality,

How far are you going to take this bombing crap?

You said it already a few times and I let it go.

Enough, already.

I don't like kiiling women and children and I don't like people who preach that.

Michael

Michael,

You assume that I like the Idea of killing women and children. I am simply recognizing the reality of war. In war you do not win by killing more of the enemies soldiers than they kill of yours, you win by making war so unstomachacheble the enemy no longer has the will to fight. How did we win against the Japanese? We made war with us impossible. The reality is who makes war possible? is it a state? is it an army? no, a state must be able to pay for its armies. This is why I am also for arming every dissident in Iran. So long as a population goes along with the state (ie does not openly and physically oppose) the population is not "innocent".

to demonstrate my point. If a US soldier in Iraq is in a fire fight with an enemy combatant and that enemy comes out holding a woman as hostage and is still firing on the soldier that soldier should return fire with the intent to kill even if it endangers the life of that woman, even if that soldier knows he will take the woman's life. It has nothing to do with that woman, it has to do with the rules of war. If your enemy knows that holding a woman hostage will not stop you from killing him you will find women dont get held hostage.

when you go to war total war is the only option

Edited November 11, 2010 by equality72521

[Brant Gaede]

a friend and I were actually discussing this recently and he came up with a very good idea. (Note: He is a former Mormon who was very into religious ref.) In a nutshell he said "Do you know how to solve the problem with the middle east? its quite simple. Pick 5 cities, one in Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt, and for good measure another one in Iran. Then bomb the shit out of those cities. Don't stop there. Fill several 747's with salt and then salt the earth of those cities. There is only so much farmable land in the middle east. How many cities do you think you would need to do that to after that? none."

Gee, why ask your friend? Ask me. I know all about killing people and your friend is just completely full of shit.

--Brant

ask me about war, too

[Selene]

Equality,

How far are you going to take this bombing crap?

You said it already a few times and I let it go.

Enough, already.

I don't like kiiling women and children and I don't like people who preach that.

Michael

Michael,

You assume that I like the Idea of killing women and children. I am simply recognizing the reality of war. In war you do not win by killing more of the enemies soldiers than they kill of yours, you win by making war so unstomachacheble the enemy no longer has the will to fight. How did we win against the Japanese? We made war with us impossible. The reality is who makes war possible? is it a state? is it an army? no, a state must be able to pay for its armies. This is why I am also for arming every dissident in Iran. So long as a population goes along with the state (ie does not openly and physically oppose) the population is not "innocent".

to demonstrate my point. If a US soldier in Iraq is in a fire fight with an enemy combatant and that enemy comes out holding a woman as hostage and is still firing on the soldier that soldier should return fire with the intent to kill even if it endangers the life of that soldier, even if that soldier knows he will take the woman's life. It has nothing to do with that woman, it has to do with the rules of war. If your enemy knows that holding a woman hostage will not stop you from killing him you will find women dont get held hostage.

when you go to war total war is the only option

I ask this question with no agenda. Have you ever been a soldier in a war and been in battle?

[Brant Gaede]

This may all be true, but it isn't relevant to one question: What does this have to do with the U.S.? We have nothing to gain from the Middle East, it isn't our battle. No mention of how Israeli's torture, push Palestinians out of their homes, violate human rights etc. To be against one side doesn't mean you are for the other; it is entirely possible that both sides are wrong, and the U.S. wins by staying out militarily, and just doing some window dressing diplomacy knowing that a diplomatic solution isn't likely.

David,

First there is lots to gain from our relations with Israel. While I do agree that we should cut Govt funding (I support private funding of Israel), Israel is a prime location for launching attacks against middle eastern powers. If you do not believe that Iran is a threat than you need to look more closely at the facts (side note WikiLeaks proved bush was right about WMD's in Iraq). Something else we must consider is the link between the US and Israel and how that would be viewed and embolden our enemies over there. As to Israeli's torture? seriously. A nation has the right to defend itself. Terrorists have no rights. As to pushing the Palestinians out. They ought to push them all out. Expel the lot of them out of gaza, it was a mistake to ever return it to begin with. When will the Israel's learn that you dont give land to your enemies because it just means they can launch their rockets at you closer than before.

The greatest flaw with America's policy in the middle east is that we are nation building. We need to bomb the shit out of our enemies and then leave. dont democracy build, dont nation build. Bomb them and let them rebuild on their own.

James Bond would listen to any expert on any subject, but that would exclude you.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Equality,

Blah blah blah.

You have no interest in resolving anything. You just want to spew hatred, then rationalize it.

I'm not going to play that game.

You are a hater who preaches bigotry and hate. This isn't the first time.

You have the soul of a bully and I don't like you.

Michael

[equality72521]

Spring 2006 Vol. 1, No. 1

This article is from TOS Vol. 1, No. 1. The full contents of the issue are listed here.

"Just War Theory" vs. American Self-Defense

Yaron Brook and Alex Epstein

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PDF Available: To purchase a PDF of this article, click here.

Authors' Note: This essay is partially based on a lecture, "The Morality of War," delivered by Yaron Brook at numerous venues across the country including the 2004 Objectivist Summer Conference.

It has been nearly five years since September 11, 2001—the day that Islamic terrorists incinerated thousands of innocent individuals in the freest, wealthiest, happiest, and most powerful nation on earth....

=====================================================================================

EDIT FROM MSK;

This poster posted the entire article and I just deleted it. Here is what I gleaned from the very same The Objective Standard page this poster copied the article from:

This article is protected by copyright law. Permission is hereby granted to excerpt up to 600 words, providing that the excerpt is accompanied by proper credit to the author and a link to the full article at the website of TOS. For permission to reproduce longer excerpts, contact the editor at editor@theobjectivestandard.com.

And for the record, here is the requested backlink for TOS that the poster didn't even bother to provide:

“Just War Theory” vs. American Self-Defense

Yaron Brook and Alex Epstein

NOTE TO EQUALITY: I don't want to restrict you, so pipe down.

Michael

[Mike11]

I appreciate that talk of ethnic cleansing is opposed by the majority of this community.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Joel,

Just to make sure we are on the same page, the ethnic cleansing of Jews preached by Hamas is just as despicable as any talk of wholesale bombing of Arab cities.

Michael

[Mike11]

MSK,

I agree. My problem with Israel is basically this - Show me where Shas ends and Hamas begins.

I think though that decent people outnumber the fanatics on either side.

[BaalChatzaf]

MSK,

I agree. My problem with Israel is basically this - Show me where Shas ends and Hamas begins.

I think though that decent people outnumber the fanatics on either side.

In the Hamas ruled realms, the decent people keep quiet and keep their heads down.

In Israel, every one is noisy. Wherever three Jews gather, four opinions emerge.

Ba'al Chatzaf