Nuclear-armed Iran risks 'World War III,' Bush says

[Matus1976]

I never said that you "don't care if the US gets nuclear weapons because it wont use them on me". What I said was that you don't care if the US uses nuclear weapons on Iran, because you won't be the target of them. This is pretty self-evidently true. If you lived in Iran, would you still advocate US use of nuclear weapons, knowing that there was a very good chance that you would be killed, maimed, or sickened by the resulting radiation fallout? There are no shortage of armchair American warriors who thoughtlessly advocate bombing the shit out of foreigners who live thousands of miles away, knowing that they will be a safe distance from the carnage. To them, the carnage is nothing more than a two minute spot on the eleven o'clock news. They can go about their normal lives, watching "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars" while American bombs and bullets are destroying another country. Just as most Americans don't know, don't want to know, and don't care what has happened in Iraq since the US invasion.

I missed this response previously, and came across it again. I understand your reaction more to my comments now Martin, I don't advocate and never will advocate using Nuclear weapons against the population of Iran, North Korea, or anywhere for that matter. I think their use was justified in WWII, but probably will never be again, not with the strategic and smart weapons we have now. I am absolutely disgusted by that 'Nuke em all' (as you say) 'arm chair objectivist warriors' I think such an attitude is absolute atrocious.

During the initial phases of the latest installment of the Iraq war, after a few days of apprehension on the part of Iraqi people, the population started again taking part in it's daily activities because they knew as long as they didnt go in or next to a palace or a government building, there was very little chance of getting injured or killed because these smart weapons were so damn good. I see this as a more accurate representation of the kind of strategic response I advocate, absolutely not a nuclear one. Of course, once that major campaign was over the Iraqi people faced attacks from insurgents, domestically, and ones pouring in from Iran and Syria.

Since we had this discussion, we had another related one which we agreed on some primary points, which I responded to here

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/in...=5126&st=80

(edit - that should go to post 87)

In short, I advocated the formation of an alliance of liberal constitutional democracies and a '12 step' program to move these horrific shitty nations toward more representative governments with rule of law and market based systems. These nations are the freest, richest, and most militarily powerfully of the world, and none of this shitty despotic hell holes can stand a chance. I am not qualified to present this list of things to do in this '12 step' program yet, I am still studying the question, but such a thing could start with demanding that any international aide provided by controlled and distributed by the providers of the aide (this is almost never the case now), open access by international NGO's and monitoring groups, etc and ending with directed strategic attacks which specifically target the upper echelons of that government. After which a large international force would work immediately to provide rule of law, court systems, and initiate programs to transition governments. None of it would be easy or painless, but in the short term the world would reap immediate humanitarian benefits, and in the long term some of the most significant threats humanity will ever face will be reduced.

Again, I am not qualified to say what steps would work best, but Freedomhouse recently published the results of a large empirical study "How Freedom is Won" (this is from R.J. Rummels Blog)

They examined 33 years of transitions to freedom (liberal democracy) made by 67 countries, of which before transition 31 were Partly Free, and 36 were Not Free. Today 35 are Free, 23 are Partly Free, and 9 are Not Free. They excluded transitions that occurred in small countries, defined as those with populations of less than one million. Excluded, too, are countries where major political transitions occurred in the last two years. This is because there has not been a sufficient interval since the transition from an authoritarian or pseudo-democratic rule to make firm assessments about the nature or durability of post-transition change in countries where institutional, political, legal, and human rights environments are still evolving or where reforms either have not yet been launched or fully implemented.

Rummel continues:

So, what can be said about democratization from this fascinating and landmark study (paraphrasing and quoting from this study):

"The most effective agent for promoting change toward democracy is broad-based, nonviolent civic resistance -- which employs tactics such as boycotts, mass protests, blockades, strikes, and civil disobedience to delegitimize authoritarian rulers and erode their sources of support, including the loyalty of their armed defenders"

It's an interesting prospect, perhaps this would work better than many of the steps I suggest, but without Rule of Law and Free Speech, I have a hard time seeing 'civic protests' working in North Korea. Whatever works, my ultimate goal is to see the spread of liberal constitutional representation market democracies as quickly as is reasonably possible while being as painless as reasonably possible. I hardly think such a thing qualifies as 'thuggish' South Korea achieved this transition in about 30 years with no directed international help, let alone that of a coalition of liberal democracies. The vast majority of the deaths and violence (over 95%) in Iraq have comes at the hands of other terrorists targeting Iraqis, most of which have come from Iran and Syria. A larger force at the outset would have mitigated this, and so would a coalition of all free nations.

Hiding our head in the sand and insisting that we do absolutely nothing until a battleship steams up the Hudson is completely ridiculous in an age of nuclear weapons, and a coming age of nanotechnology and bio terrorism.

I'll comment to the rest later but I hope that clarifies my position more. None of this suggests we don't do everything we can to spread real freedom and liberty here and now in the US, and all the western nations, and I suggest the world, not just for humanitarian reasons (which objectivists would scoff at as altruistic) but because any assault on freedom and liberty to any person in the world is an assault on the very concept of both, and because in the long run our very survival is at stake.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Matus1976

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Mike,

There is a very thin line between trying to make the world a better place and undue interference in another country, but I find myself in agreement with much of what you just wrote.

However, there is one thing that is very, very important to add: education. I don't mean formal education, either. I mean spreading good ideas in the right places to people receptive to them. This is metaphorically called intellectual warfare, but I am starting to dislike that metaphor. Intellectual warfare (or battle) insinuates cramming ideas down the throats of those unwilling to adopt them. It is a great term for maintaining morale when you are against an entrenched widespread body of ideas, but in actual warfare, I think it is not only misleading, it could easily be used as a basis for abuses that are counterproductive.

I like the term education better. One of the premises of this approach is that I sincerely believe most people are good inside and are open to reason (to varying degrees). So if a good idea is presented to them in a form they can understand, I believe most will adopt it, or at least some of the fundaments.

So if the adoption of ideas that lead to freedom and prosperity shrugs off dictatorships by the very nature of the acts based on them, I suppose this could be called warfare. However, I see it in the same sense that learning to read would be "warfare" against ignorance. There is no war, only education and a new manner of acting that discourages former uncouth ways. The fact is that thugs don't have good ideas behind them. They only have guns and emotional appeals packaged as religion or dogma. They are no match for people with good ideas in their heads who value their own lives on principle (and not just on biology).

Education is critical to the process of freedom, democracy and a market economy being adopted where there was once a brutal dictatorship. If rational ideas are not offered properly so people can become educated in them, I do not see any attempt at imposing freedom on a dictatorship by military means enduring. In fact, I believe that military means are not even needed when good ideas get to the right places.

Michael

[Selene]

I wonder how exactly they consider 'nuclear-armed Iran' a threat to world peace any more than any other country with nuclear weapons?

Yes because a fundamantalist religious dictatorship possessing nuclear weapons is the same thing as a representative liberal democracy prossessing them.

I am new here, but that is a very refreshing website.

Well, well and I was so well behaved then...

here we are seven plus (7+) years later and almost all of them under the thumb of an incompetent marxist ideologue..

talking about Iran and the bomb...

A...

Post Script:

[Peter]

On 10/18/2007 at 9:42 PM, Brant Gaede said:

The U.S. was not fighting a half-ass war. You don't give quarter until the other guy gives up, on your terms. WWII was one massive, continuous effort. You don't let your enemies get off the floor. You keep stomping them even unto their deaths. Stomp, burn, stab, blow them up--morning, noon and night.

--Brant

Is the world closer to a nuclear war? Perhaps not as close as in 1962 when the USSR colonized Cuba with nuclear missiles. But I would consider the apocalyptic probability. So, get ALL your vaccinations and keep food and water on hand. Peter

China menaces Taiwan. November 25, 2021. Washington (CNN) Five US lawmakers arrived in Taiwan on Thursday to meet with government officials, defying Beijing to visit the contested island.

Russia is prepared to invade Ukraine just after the first of the year in 2022. WASHINGTON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden will warn Russian President Vladimir Putin of severe economic consequences should Russia go ahead with a threatened invasion of Ukraine, a senior U.S. administration official said on Monday. Biden and Putin are to hold a secure video call on Tuesday as the United States tries to head off Russia from launching military action against Ukraine after Moscow massed tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border.

[Marc]

3 hours ago, Peter said:

Is the world closer to a nuclear war? Perhaps not as close as in 1962 when the USSR colonized Cuba with nuclear missiles. But I would consider the apocalyptic probability. So, get ALL your vaccinations and keep food and water on hand. Peter

China menaces Taiwan. November 25, 2021. Washington (CNN) Five US lawmakers arrived in Taiwan on Thursday to meet with government officials, defying Beijing to visit the contested island.

Russia is prepared to invade Ukraine just after the first of the year in 2022. WASHINGTON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden will warn Russian President Vladimir Putin of severe economic consequences should Russia go ahead with a threatened invasion of Ukraine, a senior U.S. administration official said on Monday. Biden and Putin are to hold a secure video call on Tuesday as the United States tries to head off Russia from launching military action against Ukraine after Moscow massed tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border.

Up here we are only able to get double vaxxed and one booster, for Christs sake!!!!!

Wondering if I could jump on a plane to Tel Aviv and get my second booster?!??!

Ontario is so behind , how I wish I could get a daily booster, and a pill, 

[Peter]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:07 PM, Marc said:

Ontario is so behind , how I wish I could get a daily booster, and a pill, 

As I may have mentioned, Moderna is suggesting a booster this coming summer even if you are now fully vaccinated. But I have heard nothing about a fourth Pfizer shot.

Our ambassadors will soon be discussing the aggressive moves Russia is putting on Ukraine.  I am sure we will promise to retaliate economically if they invade, but will America also pay them something to not invade?

[Peter]

This might sound off track, but what about all those beautiful Ukrainian beauties who “pose” for our edification?

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. U.S. total imports of agricultural products from Ukraine totaled $143 million in 2019. Leading categories include: fruit & vegetable juices ($48 million), other vegetable oils ($31 million), snack foods ($12 million), other dairy products ($2 million), and processed fruit & vegetables ($918 thousand).

[Marc]

10 hours ago, Peter said:

As I may have mentioned, Moderna is suggesting a booster this coming summer even if you are now fully vaccinated. But I have heard nothing about a fourth Pfizer shot.

Our ambassadors will soon be discussing the aggressive moves Russia is putting on Ukraine.  I am sure we will promise to retaliate economically if they invade, but will America also pay them something to not invade?

Maybe I should move to Israel so I could get the 4th shot and then the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th.

Or maybe better even if some company could infuse our drinking water with the vax just like they do with THC, this way every gulp of water could protect us more.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Or maybe better even if some company could infuse our drinking water with the vax just like they do with THC, this way every gulp of water could protect us more.

If you want to simulate some paranoia, check out what happened in the 1950's and 60's when fluoride was put into municipal water supplies. I think the movie "Doctor Strangelove" may have mentioned the big to-do from mostly right-wing conspiracy theorists. I think it was meant to benefit the enamel on young teeth. And I don't think I have seen anything about long term health effects from fluoride. However, I don't think it was a wise move at the time and now fluoride comes in mouthwashes and toothpaste.