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Today marks the dolorous 25th anniversary of the bloody crackdown and heartless massacre of Tiananmen Square by the loathsome, evil, Chinese dictators. It was a truly black day for world freedom.

The idealistic, noble, and very brave, student-led protest was basically advocating overall reform, less corruption, democracy, and liberty. But it was called a pro-"democracy" demonstration from the start, and now it's almost exclusively remembered as being part of a pro-"democracy" movement.

Well, democracy has advanced only slightly in the past quarter-century. Only to a scattered, inconsistent, and minor extent do the Chinese people actually get to elect their leaders, and decide who will rule them based on a majority vote.

But freedom has advanced substantially. So too justice, and even impartial, objective rule of law. It's rather sad and odd that neither the Chinese nor the world publicly note it much.

This problem -- and grave philosophical error -- began a long time ago. Indeed, in 1989 the Peking protesters occupying the central Square built a statue explicitly called "The Goddess of Democracy" to symbolize their protest. They did not build a "Goddess of Individual Liberty." The difference is telling -- and overwhelming.

The sloppy language and poor thinking of the demonstrators and everyone else -- then and now -- is a true disaster for all. This business of government reformers incoherently stammering: "I want democracy -- you know: majority rule plus individual liberty," is very confusing to everybody.

It renders the all-important battle royal for freedom and individual rights exceedingly difficult. Indeed, it mainly serves to advance the trivial notion and minor goal of a nation getting to choose its political leaders.

As for the chance the newly-empowered people of China in 1989 might have used their new "democracy" to advance welfare-statist bureaucracy and tyranny far more than the economic capitalism and personal libertarianism recently advanced by the communist Chinese dictators -- well, no-one cares to consider that. Best to close our eyes to reality, and pretend that embarrassing issue doesn't exist.

In the end, post-Tiananmen China has advanced fairly far down the only road that matters: not towards slimy, worthless democracy, but towards all-important freedom. When it comes to government, politics, and the law, the only things which matter are liberty, justice, and individual rights. Put more simply, the only thing which counts is individual liberty. And the Chinese people -- altho' still grossly and unconscionably deprived -- have a lot more of this today than they did 25 years ago.

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In the end, post-Tiananmen China has advanced fairly far down the only road that matters: not towards slimy, worthless democracy, but towards all-important freedom. When it comes to government, politics, and the law, the only things which matter are liberty, justice, and individual rights. Put more simply, the only thing which counts is individual liberty. And the Chinese people -- altho' still grossly and unconscionably deprived -- have a lot more of this today than they did 25 years ago.

China is a kleptocracy and a kind of Mafia.

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I'm not appologizing for what happened, but I think what you're describing is not exactly what happened.

Deng Xiao Ping made a very hard choice. In the end, they were all given a lot of warning to leave.

If you ask any Chinese person, they will almost all invariably tell you that they support the communist party government, and none of them are interested in installing democracy. The Chinese really don't want it. You're projecting your mindset onto them. What they think of as 'democracy' is not what your western mind thinks. They merely wanted more say. And for now, it might actually be better for them to have the one party state. Better a few ex-engineers try to run the country with the goal of making it developed and skimming some profit off the top than they devolve into the mess of India and welfare statism. I think they will only start thinking of democracy once the whole country has industrialized and developed.

The Chinese never had the enlightenment or greek philosophy influence. They don't have the same mindset and culture as the western countries. I don't think the Chinese are going to end up as a great bastion of liberty, but they are pragmatic, and they will never go back to communism. They know they have to give the people a healthy dosage of freedom, and they mostly do. Despite the bureacracy, if you play nice, you can do pretty much anything now. Taxes are lower than in the west. And the fact that there are shoddy ways to get around regulations is not a bad thing.

China is Chinese. They will remain that way. Their philosophy of confucianism is better than Christianity, but it has a lot of bad ideas too. Taoism is also a large influence. Familial piety is still a huge deal over there. The majority are still very second handed and preoccupied with 'saving face'. Ignoring a situation - evasion - is a frustration of expats over there.

In one of my economics classes which was 95% Chinese students, the teacher asked if somali pirates were economically benefitial. A few of the Chinese students answered 'yes', because they are earning money. Of course, all the Aussie students were baffled by this response idenfifying instantly that they were not producing anything.

Another example, the teacher asked what the correct minimum wage should be. A Chinese girl started rattling off a formula for determining minimum wage. The teacher - a german - retorted, but who decides that that's the formula. She was completely and nutterly confused. She just kept explaining the formula. He explained that there is no objective answer, it's an opinion. Someone has to decide on some subjective criterion and come up with a formula. She seemed very confused.

Now, can you see the level of their awareness?

I've had a lot of dealing with actual Chinese people through my high school and my university. I'm farmiliar with their mentality. It's way behind the Koreans and Japanese who appear way more western in their thought processes.

You are painting them all as nobel souls in the fight for their own freedom.

I agree whole heartedly, China does not need democracy. They are better off letting the communist party develop the whole place first. In other words, letting them keep the ground rules stable so that Chinese people can create wealth. The last thing they need is a huge disruption. And they'll erect some roads or whatever, waste some money, doesn't matter.

In closing, what China really needs is good philosophy and good ideas!

I commend the Chinese parents who send their children to western countries in droves. They know there is something to be learned in the west. They are at least that smart. The Chinese who come here will go back with much better ideas than what they would have gotten in China. Of course, there will be some bad ones thrown in too.

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Nerian -- You make many good points! I think you're exactly right when you say "what China really needs is good philosophy and good ideas!" I really fear for China under democracy, even today. Their overall philosophy, culture, lifestyle, and mindset is still so primitive, childish, and monkey-like. So non-Western liberal. I'm close to terrified even now that their leaders will eventually start a truly dreadful nuclear war with America, which will devastate the Chinese people from top to bottom (not to mention what it will do to Americans).

If in 1989 the Chinese had achieved the nightmare of democracy, or majority-rule via voting, I think they would have done even worse than Russia or Ukraine. They would have almost immediately created a traditional dictatorship, rife with corruption, and inclined to wars of conquest against their neighbors, and to civil war between the Han and the other Oriental "minorities." Such would have been the fate of the barely-human Chinese monkeys! And such is the current weakness of Western liberal philosophy and culture in trying to defeat its Communist and Islamic enemies.

Thus the world and Chinese are lucky to have the current leadership of Platonic philosopher-kings and benevolent dictators. I feel sick saying this -- but it seems to be true. The great ideal here, beyond all doubt, is Singapore and its stunningly virtuous and ingenious dictator Lee Kuan Yew.

In today's irrational, illiberal Dark Age era, the key to achieving libertarianism and civilization is evidently this: suppress political rights to gain civil rights and liberties; suppress democracy to gain freedom and individual rights. Sad!

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[China's] overall philosophy, culture, lifestyle, and mindset is still so primitive, childish, and monkey-like.

[...]

Such would have been the fate of the barely-human Chinese monkeys!

Barely-human Chinese monkeys? Give your fucking head a shake -- or better yet, explain the current democratic Chinese state in Taiwan in terms of their monkey culture and their primitive monkey-like mindset.

A more repulsive set of bigoted twaddle I have yet to read on OL.

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Monkey Scherk: That was a reference to culture -- not anything else. I'm the least bigoted person on the planet, bar none. Both Taiwan and China were stuck in the feudalistic, anachronistic Dark Age much longer than the West. But Taiwan has been hugely influenced by Western liberalism since the late 1940s; China by communism. The mainlanders were also debilitated by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

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Nerian -- You make many good points! I think you're exactly right when you say "what China really needs is good philosophy and good ideas!" I really fear for China under democracy, even today. Their overall philosophy, culture, lifestyle, and mindset is still so primitive, childish, and monkey-like. So non-Western liberal. I'm close to terrified even now that their leaders will eventually start a truly dreadful nuclear war with America, which will devastate the Chinese people from top to bottom (not to mention what it will do to Americans).

If in 1989 the Chinese had achieved the nightmare of democracy, or majority-rule via voting, I think they would have done even worse than Russia or Ukraine. They would have almost immediately created a traditional dictatorship, rife with corruption, and inclined to wars of conquest against their neighbors, and to civil war between the Han and the other Oriental "minorities." Such would have been the fate of the barely-human Chinese monkeys! And such is the current weakness of Western liberal philosophy and culture in trying to defeat its Communist and Islamic enemies.

Thus the world and Chinese are lucky to have the current leadership of Platonic philosopher-kings and benevolent dictators. I feel sick saying this -- but it seems to be true. The great ideal here, beyond all doubt, is Singapore and its stunningly virtuous and ingenious dictator Lee Kuan Yew.

In today's irrational, illiberal Dark Age era, the key to achieving libertarianism and civilization is evidently this: suppress political rights to gain civil rights and liberties; suppress democracy to gain freedom and individual rights. Sad!

I'm close to terrified even now that their leaders will eventually start a truly dreadful nuclear war with America, which will devastate the Chinese people from top to bottom (not to mention what it will do to Americans).

I'm almost certain they will not do that. I think yoiu are projecting a western mindset onto them. When we had power we abused it. They don't care about power or conquest. They care about economic development. You must remember that China is the oldest continuously existing civilization. They were great once before too, being the center of the world economically, they had no interest in conquest. When the european came, they told them they had no use for trade with them, after all, what could the middle kingdom possibly want from the rest of the world.

I honestly think that the US is more likely to agress against China first! China is likely to start to dump US assets at some stage, and America will call it 'economic warefare'.

The leaders are all educated people, and they are all very intelligent. They are all western educated. They are the elite. They are not the average Chinese citizen. What the Chinese want is to live their lives.

the barely-human Chinese monkeys!

Barely-human monkies? That's so harsh. Are you talking about the leaders or the average Chinese person? Chinese people have their flaws, but I must say they are OK people. In terms of the leaders, I would say they are doing a decent job given the state of their country. They have voluntarily, even with their absolute power over the country, decided to move towards markets and more freedom. That is wonderful.

Lee Kuan Yew.

Best dictator ever. But actually he was just continuously elected. It sounds crazy, but I believe it. In the US they say don't waste your vote, vote for one of the big two parties. In Singapore, they say don't waste your vote, vote for Lee Kuan Yew.

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China is a kleptocracy and a kind of Mafia.

Bob...

Are there Jewish crime syndicates?

A,,,

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Those were brave young people in Tiananmen Square in 1989. They deserve that acknowledgement.

--Brant

Absolutely...

Tiananmen Square Tank Man: 25 Years Later, His Memory Lives On
June 3, 2014
2014-June-02-GTY_Tank_Tiananmen_Square_1
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That guy in front of the tanks in post #10 showed immense personal courage. But he was probably acting on the basis of Confucian, Taoist, or Communist self-sacrifice -- the best moral theories he knew. But in the end, even shocking bravery is no substitute for philosophical knowledge. If a given person lacks the proper intellectual understanding, then personal greatness, integrity, courage, and other virtues can go a long way. But not nearly long enough. Only philosophical and moral truth can actually liberate and save China and humankind.

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Nerian in post #7 -- China probably won't start a nuclear war with America, in my view, over the next few decades. Russia and Pakistan haven't so far, despite their ideology pushing them in that direction strongly. Still, you can't really be sanguine. The Westernized, well-educated, English-speaking Chinese on YouTube scare the hell out of me when we debate the issues. So aggressive and hateful toward America. :excl: When they speak of Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, East Turkestan, and America's imagined, malefic predations and designs on their beloved nation, they seem filled with out-of-control rage.

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Nerian in post #7 -- China probably won't start a nuclear war with America, in my view, over the next few decades. Russia and Pakistan haven't so far, despite their ideology pushing them in that direction strongly. Still, you can't really be sanguine. The Westernized, well-educated, English-speaking Chinese on YouTube scare the hell out of me when we debate the issues. So aggressive and hateful toward America. :excl: When they speak of Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, East Turkestan, and America's imagined, malefic predations and designs on their beloved nation, they seem filled with out-of-control rage.

That sounds like a self-selection bias. Those kinds of people are loudest and go looking for videos to make trouble on. and are looking for an argument. The other 999 in a 1000 don't. So they are invisible. In a country of a billion people, 0.001% feels like a lot of people.

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Nerian in post #7 -- China probably won't start a nuclear war with America, in my view, over the next few decades. Russia and Pakistan haven't so far, despite their ideology pushing them in that direction strongly. Still, you can't really be sanguine. The Westernized, well-educated, English-speaking Chinese on YouTube scare the hell out of me when we debate the issues. So aggressive and hateful toward America. :excl: When they speak of Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, East Turkestan, and America's imagined, malefic predations and designs on their beloved nation, they seem filled with out-of-control rage.

That sounds like a self-selection bias. Those kinds of people are loudest and go looking for videos to make trouble on. and are looking for an argument. The other 999 in a 1000 don't. So they are invisible. In a country of a billion people, 0.001% feels like a lot of people.

Nerian -- I hadn't considered that, and I hope you're right. But a loud, aggressive, passionate, motivated minority can accomplish a lot.

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