Great Literature

[Philip Coates]

> Why not read some Eco and then check back? I’d recommend The Name of the Rose, Foucault’s Pendulum, or Baudolino way before I’d start suggesting Ulysses.

ND, this was not just for me personally but for anyone else with an interest in literature who reads this thread or might want to assess a recommendation.

It's a good idea, especially when someone has written an essay denigrating the writer and especially when dealing with a writer and a book many claim to be esoteric, hard to follow, and full of pointless word games, if one could offer actual evidence of its being brilliant, eloquent, worth reading, highly intelligent. Or the like.

If I had a dollar for every time I've read or heard "well, read Dubliners not Ulysses because it's unintelligble". And not just from Oists.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Philip Coates

[9thdoctor]

one could offer actual evidence of its being brilliant, eloquent, worth reading, highly intelligent. Or the like.

If I had a dollar for every time I've read or heard "well, read Dubliners not Ulysses because it's unintelligble". And not just from Oists.

Maybe the next time I dip into it, but I’m not interested in reviewing Ulysses at this time. To do it justice would take quite a bit of work. I’m sure there are plenty of sites on the internet with favorable discussions of it.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here's a former thread on OL about Ulysses: Review of James Joyce's Ulysses Almost Made Me Choke to Death

Here is the review discussed in that thread:

Review of Ulysses by James Joyce

by Doug Shaw (a professor at the University of Iowa)

The idea of writing this review was part of a project Shaw had of reading and reviewing all of the 1999 "Top 100 best English language novels of the 20th century" by the Modern Library.

Here are some excerpts from the review:

I stopped walking to work as a result of this book. I stopped enjoying the act of reading. I stopped enjoying the very fact of my existence, knowing that the same God who created me also created James Joyce and this pile of pages. One day, at about page 75, I looked to find the page number of the end, so I could pass the reading time by calculating what percentage of the book I had read so far. So I wouldn't have to look it up again, I decided to write "644" on the inside front cover. I turned to said inside front cover only to find "644" already written there, in my handwriting.

Laurel, our friends Jeff and Kristie, and some of their friends were out at a bar, and Jeff asked how the book was going. Without pausing, I said, "It is like having a rib ripped out of my body, being beaten with it, raped with it, and then being forced to eat it." The table went silent. My reaction had been unexpected by all, including me. I paused and said, "I'm sorry I said that, but I stand by the statement."

. . .

Okay, you want to know when I was really embarrassed? The first time I bought a Playboy magazine. I went to the grocery store, and left almost immediately, because I lost my nerve. I drove to a different one, and tried again and failed. Finally, I got a whole bunch of other things, slipped in the Playboy, and bought it. "This is the most embarrassing thing in the world to buy," thought I.

Okay, you want to know when I was really, really embarrassed? The first time I bought condoms. I went to the pharmacy, and left almost immediately, because I lost my nerve. I drove to a different one, and tried again and failed. Finally, I got a whole bunch of other things, slipped in the condoms, and bought it. "This is the most embarrassing thing in the world to buy," thought I. "Worse than the Playboy."

Okay, you want to know when I was really, really, really embarrassed? The time (the only time, thank you) I bought a home pregnancy test. This is hard for me to write. Good thing you are the only person who will ever read it. I went to the pharmacy, and was embarrassed, but old enough not to leave. I got a whole bunch of other things, and then got IT, and bought it. "This is the most embarrassing thing in the world to buy," thought I. "Worse than the Playboy and the condoms," thought I as I walked home, about five minutes before running into someone I knew who wanted to have a long conversation in the sidewalk, with me holding a bag and praying that he wouldn't ask me what was in it.

Okay, you want to know when I was really, really, really, really embarrassed? The time (the only time, thank you) I bought Cliff's notes. I walked to the University of Northern Iowa bookstore. I almost turned around and left. Blushing, I walked up and down every aisle, making sure no students or other professors were there. An ex-student works as a cashier; I made sure she wasn't on duty. I almost walked out, losing my nerve. But I steeled myself, got a whole bunch of other things, and bought the Cliff's notes to Ulysses. "This is the most embarrassing thing in the world to buy," thought this college professor. And I was right. Not until 70 years from now when I'm buying adult-diapers... no, this was worse.

The Cliff's notes helped a bit. I found out that the reason it seemed the perspective kept changing was because there were two main characters, and the perspective was flipping back and forth between them. No, I hadn't figured that out yet. Yes, I am stupid.

. . .

Okay. Here's the quick version of my review: Ulysses was clearly written by a clever guy. I was not smart enough to understand it. I had a horrible time reading it, and will never read it again.

I reread that review and I am still laughing.

Michael

[Philip Coates]

Subject: James Joyce as Numero Uno???

Too often 'well thought of' books -- as in that critically acclaimed list of greats -- are overrated.

We'll see if that's true of "Ulysses" - reading between the lines of reader reviews on Amazon, I rather suspect it is. I still haven't gotten all the way through the highly praised "Dubliners", which is written in clear English. I bogged down in "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" as it got repetitious. But by skipping some long passages, I did get to the end.

Coming of age and being alienated has been better done. Even "Catcher in the Rye" is better at this in a number of ways, if I recall correctly.

So far, I'm finding that while James Joyce can occasionally write a reasonably good story, to call him one of or the greatest fiction writer is way, way overstated. I've read many writers who could write rings around him, create better characters, tell a better story, leave you with a much more memorable mood or setting or perspective on life.

Again, I'm going on the works I've seen so far. At some point I'll look at Ulysses...but if it starts out and continues as murky, incomprehensible or ungrammatical or if you need a dictionary to read it or have to do detective work to figure out obscure word play...I will conclude that it is pretentious (and unnecessary) crap and put it aside.

(Of course, the problem is when you criticize a writer the establishment loves, even after having read a number of the most praised examples, there is always some clown you wants you to read one more obscure work. Playing hide the pea, saying -that- is where his really good work is.)

Edited July 19, 2010 by Philip Coates

[9thdoctor]

At some point I'll look at Ulysses...but if it starts out and continues as murky, incomprehensible or ungrammatical or if you need a dictionary to read it or have to do detective work to figure out obscure word play...

Then don’t bother. You’re not going to like it.

Besides, as I’ve said before (on this thread I believe), it needs to be heard, then read. Meanings get lost if it’s not read with an Irish accent. Words that look obscure and stop you cold on the page instead fly by and form unexpected puns or rhymes when heard. You’ll miss some of the meaning, and get lost anyway, but the first time through that’s unavoidable however you attack it. It’s actually enjoyable to hear, otherwise I’d never have been drawn in. I can vouch for the Naxos recording by Jim Norton, if you’re on audible.com it’s only one credit. 27 hours, child’s play. Compare to Atlas Shrugged at 63 hours, damn, I’ve never tried that one.

[Rich Engle]

NthDr brought up a simple but very apt point about Joyce. Sure, I guess if you are a hardcore logician, the argument would be that words should stand by themselves. So if you had a voice translator set for the most neutral tone possible, doing accents according to what standard English defines, you should still be able to get the greater thrust of things. But to try and know an author's "voice," it's nice if you have at least some kind of informed guess to make as to how they spoke, or their regional dialects, etc. It's more enriching that way, even if you aren't always right about it. I always use Samuel Clemens as an example of that--I can see him in my head, and imagine that gruff, yet kind, funny, and wise tone that must of come out of his orating.

In the case of Joyce, I think that might be even more important. I spent a lot (and I mean a LOT) of time with Joyce's work, starting out when I was quite young: my dad gave me a nice book-set, which included "Portrait..." "Dubliners," and "Ulysses." Being that the last one was the thickest, I saved it for last, although I would occasionally open to random pages and try to get something. But of course, at 11- or 12- years old, one typically does not have that much of a grasp of mythology, archetypes, and other important doo-dads. Still, I found it statistically dense, and that was kind of impressive in its own daunting way. I wish I had known a little bit about Jung back then, even. One reason I was spending a lot of time with JJ (this was before I HAD to, more or less at academic gunpoint) is that I was intrigued by the stream-of-consciousness technique: to get that, Joyce is pretty much mandatory.

Honestly, though, after all that, and things in school, and then simply electively re-reading Joyce, I find him, well, uneven, even though I expect uneven out of brilliant writers. I mean, crap, you want to talk uneven, read Hemingway. Relatedly, I would make mention that interesting context/depth/understanding can be had by studying the very interesting exchanges of writers like Hem, Fitz, Joyce, etc., talking to (and about) one another and their works. That helped me.

Ulysses? Eh. I'm still wondering if I should have read it at all, much less twice (the first time hurt less, but I was much younger then and didn't always recognize literary pain when it was thrown at me). But there are some amazing, and I mean amazing tracts in there.

Best,

rde

Let's just say his editor should be nominated for Sainthood.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Philip Coates]

> Ulysses...there are some amazing, and I mean amazing tracts in there. [RDE]

Could you post one?

[9thdoctor]

> Ulysses...there are some amazing, and I mean amazing tracts in there. [RDE]

Could you post one?

Here's the section I referenced earlier. Start at 5 1/2 minutes in, it spills over to the beginning of the second clip. A few of the most famous lines are in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUpLnZ2TcUw&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qh2wDylOoM&feature=related

[Rich Engle]

Could you post one?

Well, I don't want to, because it is a matter of taste. And, of course, the unlikelihood that you would find it any good. Plus, there are so many. But, OK, let's try it this way:

ONE PHIL MIGHT LIKE FROM "PORTRAIT" BUT MAYBE NOT:

Welcome, O life! I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race.

SHOCK AND BRAIN DEATH TO OCCUR IF PHIL LIKED ONE LIKE THIS (ULYSSES), MEANING THAT I LIKE IT:

Vulcanic lake, the dead sea: no fish, weedless, sunk deep in the earth. A dead sea in a dead land, grey and old. Old now. It bore the oldest, the first race. The oldest people. Wandered far away over all the earth, captivity to captivity, multiplying, dying, being born everywhere. It lay there now. Now it could bear no more. Dead: an old woman's: the grey sunken cunt of the world.

GENERALLY OK PC QUOTE WE COULD ARGUE ABOUT WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT:

History, said Stephen, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.

rde

Inventor: "Stream of Stupidness Writing Technique."

Edited July 20, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Rich Engle]

From "Letters of E.B. White"

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/08/03/lifetimes/white-letters.html

(Italics re Joyce mine):

Mr. White himself is an infinitely tactful critic when writing about his friends. After telling James Thurber that his book, "The 13 Clocks," is "indeed a wondrous tale and very musical and melancholy," he goes on to virtually dismantle it. I found him too severe on Donald Barthelme's "Snow White," which should not be as immediately forgettable as he says it is, especially since Mr. Barthelme's whimsy and parodic diction in that book resembles, in a more radical way, Mr. White's own. I am "a literary defective" the author says of himself, confessing that he never read James Joyce as well as an unspecified host of other famous writers. He leaves us in no doubt, however, about his feelings concerning Gertrude Stein or Ernest Hemingway, who, we are told, "always wrote standing on the skin of a lesser kudo." While Mr. White was offended by the "brutality" and bad taste of Tom Wolfe's piece on William Shawn, the New Yorker editor, he conceded the "virtuosity" of that article.

rde

All about the preventative Phil-maintenance:

at least throw one up on the wall and hope

for sticking.

[Philip Coates]

"Vulcanic lake, the dead sea: no fish, weedless, sunk deep in the earth. A dead sea in a dead land, grey and old. Old now. It bore the oldest, the first race. The oldest people. Wandered far away over all the earth, captivity to captivity, multiplying, dying, being born everywhere. It lay there now. Now it could bear no more. Dead: an old woman's: the grey sunken cunt of the world."

Not bad. At all. Sentence fragments work. Here. At least. This time.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Rich Engle]

Yeah, pretty good, right? But no doubt, there are some terrible lines that came out of that man.

[9thdoctor]

New Umberto Eco novel scheduled for October 2010! Woo-hoo!!

http://czechmatediary.com/2010/07/07/umberto-ecos-next-novel-targets-prague/

It’s made the Vatican and a high profile Rabbi unhappy, this bodes well. But it may be up to a year before a translation gets published.

http://threemonkeysonline.com/book_blog/2010/novels/umberto-ecos-cemetery-of-prague-creates-controversy

[caroljane]

[quote name='Rich Engle' timestamp='1279582407' post='103113'

In the case of Joyce, I think that might be even more important. I spent a lot (and I mean a LOT) of time with Joyce's work, starting out when I was quite young: my dad gave me a nice book-set, which included "Portrait..." "Dubliners," and "Ulysses." One reason I was spending a lot of time with JJ (this was before I HAD to, more or less at academic gunpoint...

Best,

rde

Let's just say his editor should be nominated for Sainthood.

Just ran across this old thread and have to share that in Year 2 English I HAD to read Finnegans Wake. No escape. I quite enjoyed Ulysses but FW, god what torture. After the final exam we all went to the Irish pub and deployed our parodic and colloquial skills on guess what song. Cue the Clancy Bros.

Edited February 6, 2011 by daunce lynam

[anonrobt]

New Umberto Eco novel scheduled for October 2010! Woo-hoo!!

http://czechmatediary.com/2010/07/07/umberto-ecos-next-novel-targets-prague/

It’s made the Vatican and a high profile Rabbi unhappy, this bodes well. But it may be up to a year before a translation gets published.

http://threemonkeysonline.com/book_blog/2010/novels/umberto-ecos-cemetery-of-prague-creates-controversy

According to Amazon, The Cemetery of Prague is due out in November, 2011...

[9thdoctor]

New Umberto Eco novel scheduled for October 2010! Woo-hoo!!

http://czechmatediary.com/2010/07/07/umberto-ecos-next-novel-targets-prague/

It’s made the Vatican and a high profile Rabbi unhappy, this bodes well. But it may be up to a year before a translation gets published.

http://threemonkeysonline.com/book_blog/2010/novels/umberto-ecos-cemetery-of-prague-creates-controversy

According to Amazon, The Cemetery of Prague is due out in November, 2011...

I know. My original guesstimate was pretty good. He dealt with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in an earlier book, I wonder what more he's going to spin out of it.

[9thdoctor]

Oh shit. Oh fuck. But what kind of name is Bleeding Edge for a Pynchon book? Sounds like a Palahniuk title.

http://www.amazon.com/Bleeding-Edge-Thomas-Pynchon/dp/1594204233?tag=5336432715-20

It is 2001 in New York City, in the lull between the collapse of the dot-com boom and the terrible events of September 11th. Silicon Alley is a ghost town, Web 1.0 is having adolescent angst, Google has yet to IPO, Microsoft is still considered the Evil Empire. There may not be quite as much money around as there was at the height of the tech bubble, but there's no shortage of swindlers looking to grab a piece of whats left.

Maxine Tarnow is running a nice little fraud investigation business on the Upper West Side, chasing down different kinds of small-scale con artists. She used to be legally certified but her license got pulled a while back, which has actually turned out to be a blessing because now she can follow her own code of ethics - carry a Beretta, do business with sleazebags, hack into people's bank accounts - without having too much guilt about any of it. Otherwise, just your average working mom - two boys in elementary school, an off-and-on situation with her sort of semi-ex-husband Horst, life as normal as it ever gets in the neighborhood - till Maxine starts looking into the finances of a computer-security firm and its billionaire geek CEO, whereupon things begin rapidly to jam onto the subway and head downtown. She soon finds herself mixed up with a drug runner in an art deco motorboat, a professional nose obsessed with Hitler's aftershave, a neoliberal enforcer with footwear issues, plus elements of the Russian mob and various bloggers, hackers, code monkeys, and entrepreneurs, some of whom begin to show up mysteriously dead. Foul play, of course.

With occasional excursions into the DeepWeb and out to Long Island, Thomas Pynchon, channeling his inner Jewish mother, brings us a historical romance of New York in the early days of the internet, not that distant in calendar time but galactically remote from where we've journeyed to since.

Will perpetrators be revealed, forget about brought to justice? Will Maxine have to take the handgun out of her purse? Will she and Horst get back together? Will Jerry Seinfeld make an unscheduled guest appearance? Will accounts secular and karmic be brought into balance?

Hey. Who wants to know?

[9thdoctor]

Another Eco novel is on the horizon. No word on when an English translation will be available.

http://theuntranslated.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/forthcoming-zero-issue-numero-zero-by-umberto-eco/

Although the main setting of the novel is Milan in 1992, the book will also touch upon the the mysteries and tragedies of the 1970s: the clandestine NATO operation Gladio, the notorious Masonic lodge Propaganda Due, the failed neo-fascist coup Golpe Borghese, the terror of Red Brigades, and the death of Pope John Paul I. On top of that, Eco’s new book will tell about “corrupt secret services, massacres and red herrings” as well as “a shocking plan”. The novel will be presented at the Frankfurt Book Fair with the English title That’s the Press, Baby..., referring to the famous last words of Humphrey Bogart’s character in Deadline – U.S.A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkWg0ZGpT38