ardatlas

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People elected those government officials, so its only fitting that they should get the government they deserve.

To turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones all that's necessary is to cultivate the Galt's Gulch mindset, and creatively adapt to the constantly changing world. The solution to the property tax situation is so simple. Ask yourself, what did they do in Galt's Gulch?

They built their own homes.

The government cannot tax you on business transactions you make with yourself. So be your own bank, and buy raw land for cash. Hire yourself to be your own land developer, then hire yourself to be your own general contractor and trade laborer, so that you completely own the production pipeline from concept to finished product by building for all cash with no debt. When it's done, simply give it to yourself, move in, and enjoy it. Since the home is never actually sold, the property tax assessment remains at the wholesale developer's basis which is a small fraction of the actual market value. :smile:

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I think "you get the government you deserve" is a platitude and far too simplistic an analysis. It ignores the powerlessness of the individual in a majoritarian political system. How can somebody be responsible for something over which they have no power?

If I voted against the incumbent politicians, am I still responsible for their actions? Would not voting absolve me (my personal choice)? If somebody steals my wallet, did I deserve the theft because I didn't take adequate steps to protect it?

You might have been making an analogy, but I'll further point out that building your own home does not exempt you from property taxes.

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I think "you get the government you deserve" is a platitude and far too simplistic an analysis.

Of course I'm only speaking from my own direct personal life experience as well as from my observations of the world. That view is highly subjective because I'm the only one who actually experiences the consequences of my actions.

It ignores the powerlessness of the individual in a majoritarian political system. How can somebody be responsible for something over which they have no power?

So what?

I can tell you that just like everyone else, I'm getting exactly the government I deserve because my own direct personal experience of the government I deserve is completely dependent on how I live. Reading Atlas Shrugged decades ago so deeply affected me that I chose to live by the economic and moral principles of Galt's Gulch even if no one else around me did. Taking this "path less travelled" set into motion a completely different set of consequences from the paths that others chose.

You might have been making an analogy, but I'll further point out that building your own home does not exempt you from property taxes.

You are quite correct. It is impossible to own a home without paying property taxes. However... how much you pay is totally your own responsibility and is completely dependent on your own actions.

By acting as my own bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent, the property tax basis on my home is 170k while the current market value is 800k. America still rewards decent responsible productive solvent frugal Capitalists who produce useful products for their own personal benefit.

The trick is to make business transactions with yourself. That's the Galt's Gulch way. :wink:

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By acting as my own bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent, the property tax basis on my home is 170k while the current market value is 800k. America still rewards decent responsible productive solvent frugal Capitalists who produce useful products for their own personal benefit.

The trick is to make business transactions with yourself. That's the Galt's Gulch way. :wink:

I'm not an attorney, but I'm fairly certain what you are describing constitutes tax fraud. Actually, wait, I am an attorney.

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By acting as my own bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent, the property tax basis on my home is 170k while the current market value is 800k. America still rewards decent responsible productive solvent frugal Capitalists who produce useful products for their own personal benefit.

The trick is to make business transactions with yourself. That's the Galt's Gulch way. :wink:

I'm not an attorney, but I'm fairly certain what you are describing constitutes tax fraud. Actually, wait, I am an attorney.

C'mon Bob...stick to your strong points...

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By acting as my own bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent, the property tax basis on my home is 170k while the current market value is 800k. America still rewards decent responsible productive solvent frugal Capitalists who produce useful products for their own personal benefit.

The trick is to make business transactions with yourself. That's the Galt's Gulch way. :wink:

I'm not an attorney, but I'm fairly certain what you are describing constitutes tax fraud. Actually, wait, I am an attorney.

Ok. Fair enough, Robert.

Please explain specifically how it is fraudulent for an American Capitalist to work, and earn, and save up the money to buy his own land and to build his own home. Since I've been using the principles Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged I'd be interested to hear how they're wrong.

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Ok. Fair enough, Robert.

Please explain specifically how it is fraudulent for an American Capitalist to work, and earn, and save up the money to buy his own land and to build his own home. Since I've been using the principles Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged I'd be interested to hear how they're wrong.

I'm not making any moral arguments, but legally speaking, if the fair market value of your home is 800k and you're only paying taxes on it as if it had a value of 170k, then that's pretty clearly tax fraud. If you want to go to Federal prison to stand up on principle, then best of luck to you.

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Ok. Fair enough, Robert.

Please explain specifically how it is fraudulent for an American Capitalist to work, and earn, and save up the money to buy his own land and to build his own home. Since I've been using the principles Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged I'd be interested to hear how they're wrong.

I'm not making any moral arguments, but legally speaking, if the fair market value of your home is 800k and you're only paying taxes on it as if it had a value of 170k, then that's pretty clearly tax fraud. If you want to go to Federal prison to stand up on principle, then best of luck to you.

Federal prison on a property tax matter? Is this property on an Indian reservation?

You are making a de facto moral argument with the asservative legal argument, such as it is.

The tax value of a property is determined by an assessment. You generally don't declare the value of your property save on an appeal. Complicating and nuancing data may vitiate this statement.

Who's going to take this to a Grand Jury?

--Brant

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People elected those government officials, so its only fitting that they should get the government they deserve.

To turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones all that's necessary is to cultivate the Galt's Gulch mindset, and creatively adapt to the constantly changing world. The solution to the property tax situation is so simple. Ask yourself, what did they do in Galt's Gulch?

They built their own homes.

The government cannot tax you on business transactions you make with yourself. So be your own bank, and buy raw land for cash. Hire yourself to be your own land developer, then hire yourself to be your own general contractor and trade laborer, so that you completely own the production pipeline from concept to finished product by building for all cash with no debt. When it's done, simply give it to yourself, move in, and enjoy it. Since the home is never actually sold, the property tax assessment remains at the wholesale developer's basis which is a small fraction of the actual market value. :smile:

Is a certificate of occupancy needed to live in it legally?

--Brant

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Federal prison on a property tax matter? Is this property on an Indian reservation?

You are making a de facto moral argument with the asservative legal argument, such as it is.

The tax value of a property is determined by an assessment. You generally don't declare the value of your property save on an appeal. Complicating and nuancing data may vitiate this statement.

Who's going to take this to a Grand Jury?

--Brant

If you "act as your own bank and real estate agent" to willfully conceal over $600,000 in real assets from the Federal government to evade paying property taxes on them, then yes, you can go to Federal prison for that.

Many, many people have gone to jail for less.

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Federal prison on a property tax matter? Is this property on an Indian reservation?

You are making a de facto moral argument with the asservative legal argument, such as it is.

The tax value of a property is determined by an assessment. You generally don't declare the value of your property save on an appeal. Complicating and nuancing data may vitiate this statement.

Who's going to take this to a Grand Jury?

--Brant

If you "act as your own bank and real estate agent" to willfully conceal over $600,000 in real assets from the Federal government to evade paying property taxes on them, then yes, you can go to Federal prison for that.

Many, many people have gone to jail for less.

Okay, now. What is the broken Federal law? Once that is established I'll try to pull the next tooth.

--Brant

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Ok. Fair enough, Robert.

Please explain specifically how it is fraudulent for an American Capitalist to work, and earn, and save up the money to buy his own land and to build his own home. Since I've been using the principles Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged I'd be interested to hear how they're wrong.

I'm not making any moral arguments, but legally speaking, if the fair market value of your home is 800k and you're only paying taxes on it as if it had a value of 170k, then that's pretty clearly tax fraud. If you want to go to Federal prison to stand up on principle, then best of luck to you.

I won't go to Federal prison because I am standing on principle. :wink:

There's something that you're unfamiliar with since you don't live here and that is accounting for your response. California property tax assessments have operated under Proposition 13 since 1978. Since you're a lawyer I know you can easily read up on it, and then you'll understand. It's was a vote of the people from a time in the past when the American Capitalist producers actually outnumbered the liberal socialist parasites.

There's also something else you don't understand. I have no power to set the assessed value on my home. I only had the power to build it. It was the County that assessed the home at their own square foot cost of building standards. Every developer in the County who has an inventory of unsold homes pays exactly the same rate. It's upon sale that the County reassesses the homes at their full market value, which in this instance would have made the property taxes about 10k a year.

There's a larger point here that I'm hoping doesn't get lost in the minutia. And it is this:

There are always ways to enjoy our inherent right to liberty because the government is not the source of it. This fact makes it the personal responsibility of each individual American to discover those creative "outside the box" ways for themselves. And those who don't, fully deserve to remain "inside the box" as slaves of the government they created in their own image.

Ayn Rand precisely defined the principles of freedom to follow in her ideal "outside the box" description of Galt's Gulch. And even though I never met her, I still freely chose to follow her good advice... and it works beautifully. :smile:

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People elected those government officials, so its only fitting that they should get the government they deserve.

To turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones all that's necessary is to cultivate the Galt's Gulch mindset, and creatively adapt to the constantly changing world. The solution to the property tax situation is so simple. Ask yourself, what did they do in Galt's Gulch?

They built their own homes.

The government cannot tax you on business transactions you make with yourself. So be your own bank, and buy raw land for cash. Hire yourself to be your own land developer, then hire yourself to be your own general contractor and trade laborer, so that you completely own the production pipeline from concept to finished product by building for all cash with no debt. When it's done, simply give it to yourself, move in, and enjoy it. Since the home is never actually sold, the property tax assessment remains at the wholesale developer's basis which is a small fraction of the actual market value. :smile:

Is a certificate of occupancy needed to live in it legally?

--Brant

Yes. I have a C of O. The home is completely legal, and was built in one of the most heavily government regulated areas in the nation, with two overlapping regulatory bureaucracies, Department of Building and Safety and the Coastal Commission. Even though it took two and a half years and $30K to obtain a building permit, the investment was still well worth it to own a home free and clear.

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Federal prison on a property tax matter? Is this property on an Indian reservation?

You are making a de facto moral argument with the asservative legal argument, such as it is.

The tax value of a property is determined by an assessment. You generally don't declare the value of your property save on an appeal. Complicating and nuancing data may vitiate this statement.

Who's going to take this to a Grand Jury?

--Brant

If you "act as your own bank and real estate agent"...

It is not illegal to work to earn enough capital to fund your own financial ventures. Solvency is an essential economic principle of American Capitalism. It is also not illegal to represent yourself in any real estate transaction. These facts are obvious, are they not?

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I think there's a disconnect in this conversation between the limited point I was making about the extent to which anyone can avoid certain realities of "the system" into which they were born - specifically on the issue of property and income taxes - and the broader philosophical issue of self-reliance that Moralist is pushing. Moralist seemed to be arguing that the individuals having a gargantuan property tax increase foisted upon them by elected officials were ultimately to blame because they got the government they deserved - or something. I think that is an overly broad and simplistic analysis because many of those individuals were, by any meaningful measure, powerless over the matter and might have done everything within their ability to resist it. In the case of Rhode Island I brought up above, it's nice that we have 49 other states from which to choose. But ultimately there comes a point where your back is against a big enough wall and you can't outrun statist encroachment anymore.

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Robert:

My understanding of our Founders limited Constitutional Republic is that:

1) there is no disconnect[although you seem to have a different definition than I am advancing here];and

2) there are specifically delegated Constitutional powers and any attempt to gain power outside of the document and it's amendments would have to, in theory, have to sustain Constitutional challenges.

A...

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I think there's a disconnect in this conversation between the limited point I was making about the extent to which anyone can avoid certain realities of "the system" into which they were born - specifically on the issue of property and income taxes-

I understand your disconnect, Robert. It's perfectly natural for you (as a lawyer) to accuse fraud and illegality when you don't know the prevailing State and County laws under which I operate legally just as any other developer does. (although I did it on a very small scale) This is why I don't take your comments personally and am happy to explain exactly how working to produce your own home (like they did in Galt's Gulch) can generate financial rewards for the rest of your life for any American willing to actually do it.

Nowadays, people don't consider producing their own necessities of life anymore. They only think of buying them from someone else. While this is genuinely beneficial in many ways, there are also drawbacks in certain situations which need to be weighed when making decisions. I weighed buying versus building and just couldn't not pass up the opportunity to experience the "Galt's Gulch" adventure of becoming a producer who makes his own market, instead of a passive consumer who is subject to the whims of the market.

Moralist seemed to be arguing that the individuals having a gargantuan property tax increase foisted upon them by elected officials were ultimately to blame because they got the government they deserved

Yes. But not arguing. Simply stating as fact.

Anyone who honestly believes that they do not deserve the government they're getting, ought to seriously consider changing how they are living. Because to the extent that anyone who lives a life deserving of a decent government, to that same extent they will personally experience the decent government they deserve. What do I have as proof of this?. the fact that I enjoy my right to liberty even while living in one of the most completely liberal government "encroached" areas in the nation.

Government is not the highest authority. It answers to very same moral law its citizens do. So when you answer to moral law, the government answers to you. :wink:

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I think there's a disconnect in this conversation between the limited point I was making about the extent to which anyone can avoid certain realities of "the system" into which they were born - specifically on the issue of property and income taxes-

I understand your disconnect, Robert. It's perfectly natural for you (as a lawyer) to accuse fraud and illegality when you don't know the prevailing State and County laws under which I operate legally just as any other developer does. (although I did it on a very small scale) This is why I don't take your comments personally and am happy to explain exactly how working to produce your own home (like they did in Galt's Gulch) can generate financial rewards for the rest of your life for any American willing to actually do it.

There are two possibilities: either you presented your situation with so many selectively omitted details that your narrative was misleading on its face, or you committed tax fraud. I'm totally willing to acknowledge the possibility of the former, but that's a problem with your presentation, not the interpretation. You may very well be taking advantage of some weird-ass tax loophole or exemption which you haven't explained, but there are conditions you have to meet to utilize such exemptions, otherwise everyone would simply not pay property taxes. It's not a straightforward choice with no strings attached, which is the way you presented it.

It's like this: suppose I tell you that I broke into a house last night, took the valuables, and sneaked out. You can reasonably conclude based on this information that I committed a burglary. That the house was my own (I accidentally locked the keys inside), the valuables were being loaded into my car (because I was moving), and I sneaked out so as not to wake my neighbors, doesn't change that your conclusion was reasonable based on the information provided. It's your utopian, preachy, and selective presentation of the facts with which I take issue, not any actual behavior on your part.

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I think there's a disconnect in this conversation between the limited point I was making about the extent to which anyone can avoid certain realities of "the system" into which they were born - specifically on the issue of property and income taxes-

I understand your disconnect, Robert. It's perfectly natural for you (as a lawyer) to accuse fraud and illegality when you don't know the prevailing State and County laws under which I operate legally just as any other developer does. (although I did it on a very small scale) This is why I don't take your comments personally and am happy to explain exactly how working to produce your own home (like they did in Galt's Gulch) can generate financial rewards for the rest of your life for any American willing to actually do it.

There are two possibilities: either you presented your situation with so many selectively omitted details that your narrative was misleading on its face, or you committed tax fraud.

All of the details have already been stated including Prop 13, about which you didn't inform yourself. So I'm ok with your opinion that I'm doing something illegal even though the County Tax Assessor doesn't and hasn't for more than a decade since I built. So let's just agree that's your view and leave it at that.

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Moralist - Here is how you presented your "Galt's Gulch" solution to property taxes:

"You are quite correct. It is impossible to own a home without paying property taxes. However... how much you pay is totally your own responsibility and is completely dependent on your own actions.

By acting as my own bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent, the property tax basis on my home is 170k while the current market value is 800k. America still rewards decent responsible productive solvent frugal Capitalists who produce useful products for their own personal benefit.

The trick is to make business transactions with yourself. That's the Galt's Gulch way."

I'm not claiming to be an expert on California state law, but you presented the difference between the property tax basis of your home and current market value as the result of your acting as "bank, developer, builder, and real estate agent." The rational conclusion of this statement is that you engaged in some kind of convoluted maneuvering to lower the property tax basis of your home, which would normally constitute tax fraud. The reality of the situation - now that you have provided us with the rest of the pertinent information - is that Proposition 13 is a state law that applies equally to everyone in California and from which all home owners benefited. So it has less to do with you being your own bank or realtor - or whatever - and more to do with simply living in California, the same as I benefit from a low sales tax for living in Virginia. These aren't simple choices that we've made, they are laws of the states in which we reside.

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I'm not claiming to be an expert on California state law...

That is correct. You don't know the legality of being an owner-builder in California. And being a lawyer, you naturally assume that it is illegal, because lawyers look for illegalities. This is why your opinion is ok by me. I don't mind being thought of poorly by others when I know I'm doing what's right. :smile:

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If you have to selectively quote half a statement of mine, where the unquoted second portion of the statement was a qualifying "but" clause, then that speaks more about your style of argument than it does about anything specific I've said. I do try to represent people accurately, and I ask that others return the courtesy. Of course, I cannot force you to do so.

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Ok. Fair enough, Robert.

Please explain specifically how it is fraudulent for an American Capitalist to work, and earn, and save up the money to buy his own land and to build his own home. Since I've been using the principles Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged I'd be interested to hear how they're wrong.

I'm not making any moral arguments, but legally speaking, if the fair market value of your home is 800k and you're only paying taxes on it as if it had a value of 170k, then that's pretty clearly tax fraud. If you want to go to Federal prison to stand up on principle, then best of luck to you.

I won't go to Federal prison because I am standing on principle. :wink:

There's something that you're unfamiliar with since you don't live here and that is accounting for your response. California property tax assessments have operated under Proposition 13 since 1978. Since you're a lawyer I know you can easily read up on it, and then you'll understand. It's was a vote of the people from a time in the past when the American Capitalist producers actually outnumbered the liberal socialist parasites.

There's also something else you don't understand. I have no power to set the assessed value on my home. I only had the power to build it. It was the County that assessed the home at their own square foot cost of building standards. Every developer in the County who has an inventory of unsold homes pays exactly the same rate. It's upon sale that the County reassesses the homes at their full market value, which in this instance would have made the property taxes about 10k a year.

There's a larger point here that I'm hoping doesn't get lost in the minutia. And it is this:

There are always ways to enjoy our inherent right to liberty because the government is not the source of it. This fact makes it the personal responsibility of each individual American to discover those creative "outside the box" ways for themselves. And those who don't, fully deserve to remain "inside the box" as slaves of the government they created in their own image.

Ayn Rand precisely defined the principles of freedom to follow in her ideal "outside the box" description of Galt's Gulch. And even though I never met her, I still freely chose to follow her good advice... and it works beautifully. :smile:

You should have mentioned Prop. 13 from the get-go for that is what you are really profiting from respecting your taxes--or did you?

--Brant

wasn't that Howard Jarvis's baby?

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