Their Eyes Were Watching God

[BAMF]

I just finished re-reading "Their Eyes Were Watching God" by Zora Neale Hurston tonight. Here is a quote that struck me that I thought some of you might appreciate.

"When God had made The Man, he made him out of stuff that sung all the time and glittered all over. Then after that some angels got jealous and chopped him into millions of pieces, but still he glittered and hummed. So they beat him down to nothing but sparks but each little spark had a shine and a song. So they covered each one over with mud. And the lonesomeness in the sparks made them hunt for one another, but the mud is deaf and dumb. Like all the other tumbling mud-balls, Janie had tried to show her shine."

And here's one I like...just for me, I guess.

"They seemed to be staring at the dark, but their eyes were watching God."

[Selene]

Beautiful.

Thank you Kori.

[kiaer.ts]

It's a sentiment out of Sethian Gnosticism.

[BaalChatzaf]

I don't get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[kiaer.ts]

I don't get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

First Kipling, now this? How can we help you, Bob?

[Selene]

The Sethians were a group of ancient Gnostics who date their existence to before Christianity.^[1] Their influence spread throughout the Mediterranean into the later systems of the Basilideans and the Valentinians^{[citation needed]}. Their thinking, though it is predominantly Judaic in foundation, is arguably strongly influenced by Platonism. Sethians are so called for their veneration of the biblical Seth, third son of Adam and Eve, who is depicted in their myths of creation as a divine incarnation; consequently, the offspring or 'posterity' of Seth are held to comprise a superior elect within human society.

[BaalChatzaf]

I don't get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

First Kipling, now this? How can we help you, Bob?

With a direct clear explanation.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[PDS]

I don't get it either.

[Jonathan]

I don't get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

First Kipling, now this? How can we help you, Bob?

With a direct clear explanation.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'll relay the type of brilliant advice I received on my Physics Question thread: "If you want to join the team then you have to learn to play."

So, what you should do, Bob, is stop your life as it exists right now, and dedicate yourself to becoming a world-class creator in the arts. Instead of asking others about an issue outside of your area of expertise and beyond your understanding, you should invest your entire being into becoming a great artist, and after you've accomplished that, come back to this thread, rephrase your questions in a manner which we connoisseurs of the arts would prefer that you ask them, and maybe then we'll give you answers.

Best,

J

[Jerry Biggers]

A quick check on wikipedia on "Zora Neal Hurston" and on her novel cited above, shows zero relevance to the, ah, "usual" topics of discussion on OL (you know, UFOs, Mars, Peikovians, etc.). ;)

Nor any reference to "sethian Gnosticism" re Hurston.

So,...it must be just a pleasant diversion, no?

[BAMF]

Ted,

Could you please, if you care to, explain why you think the above quotes (one or the other) are a sentiment out of sethian gnosticism? I don't know much about it myself. I googled it and read a bit about it, briefly, and I don't think I really get the connection that you see.

====

Bob,

Direct, clear explanations sometimes require direct, clear questions.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Kori

[George H. Smith]

I don't get it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

First Kipling, now this? How can we help you, Bob?

With a direct clear explanation.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'll relay the type of brilliant advice I received on my Physics Question thread: "If you want to join the team then you have to learn to play."

So, what you should do, Bob, is stop your life as it exists right now, and dedicate yourself to becoming a world-class creator in the arts. Instead of asking others about an issue outside of your area of expertise and beyond your understanding, you should invest your entire being into becoming a great artist, and after you've accomplished that, come back to this thread, rephrase your questions in a manner which we connoisseurs of the arts would prefer that you ask them, and maybe then we'll give you answers.

Best,

J

Revenge is indeed a dish best served cold.

Ghs

[Jonathan]

Revenge is indeed a dish best served cold.

Yes, it's surprisingly yummy served cold!

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kori,

That is a really beautiful sentiment.

I don't care where it came from.

I know it is in your heart, and that is all that matters.

Thank you very much for shining a bit through the mud...

Michael

[Jerry Biggers]

Did I say "zero relevance" to topics OL readers might agree with....?

Oops!

Try this article on the close connection between Hurston and Rose Wilder Lane and Isabel Paterson!

http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_12_04_4_beito.pdf

[BAMF]

Michael and Selene,

Thank you for just enjoying the quote with me.

[Selene]

Michael and Selene,

Thank you for just enjoying the quote with me.

Kori:

You are very welcome. Sometimes we just fail to appreciate a beautiful thought sent with openness.

Adam

[kiaer.ts]

Ted,

Could you please, if you care to, explain why you think the above quotes (one or the other) are a sentiment out of sethian gnosticism? I don't know much about it myself. I googled it and read a bit about it, briefly, and I don't think I really get the connection that you see.

====

Bob,

Direct, clear explanations sometimes require direct, clear questions.

The Sethians held that man's true nature is light, and that Yahweh was a lesser flawed god who created matter and, clothing man in it, made him forget his higher nature. The lesser angels above would be the lower Aeons of the Sethians.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Such classical Gnostic movements as the Sethians conceived of the material world as being created by a lesser divinity than the true God that was the object of their devotion. The spiritual world is conceived of as being radically different from the material world, co-extensive with the true God, and the true home of certain enlightened members of humanity; thus, these systems were expressive of a feeling of acute alienation within the world, and their resultant aim was to allow the soul to escape the constraints presented by the physical realm.

Æon

Main article: ÆonIn many Gnostic systems, the æons are the various emanations of the superior God, who is also known by such names as the One, the Monad, Aion teleos (Greek: "The Complete Æon"),^{[citation needed]} Bythos(Greek: Βυθος, 'Depth' or 'profundity'), Proarkhe (Greek: προαρχη, "Before the Beginning'), E Arkhe (Greek: ἡ ἀρχή, 'The Beginning'), Ennoia (Greek: "Thought") of the Light^[37] or Sige (Greek: Σιγη, "Silence").^[38] From this first being, also an æon, a series of different emanations occur, beginning in certain Gnostic texts with the hermaphroditic Barbelo,^[13][39][40] from which successive pairs of aeons emanate, often in male-female pairings called syzygies;^[41] the numbers of these pairings varied from text to text, though some identify their number as being thirty.^[42] The aeons as a totality constitute thepleroma, the "region of light". The lowest regions of the pleroma are closest to the darkness; that is, the physical world.^{[citation needed]}

Two of the most commonly paired æons were Jesus and Sophia (Greek: "Wisdom"); the latter refers to Jesus as her 'consort' in A Valentinian Exposition.^[43] Sophia, emanating without her partner, resulting in the production of the Demiurge (Greek: lit. "public builder"),^[44] who is also referred to as Yaldabaoth and variations thereof in some Gnostic texts.^[13] This creature is concealed outside the Pleroma;^[13] in isolation, and thinking itself alone, it creates materiality and a host of co-actors, referred to as archons. The demiurge is responsible for the creation of mankind, by create he traps elements of the Pleroma stolen from Sophia in human bodies.^[13][16] In response, the Godhead emanates two savior æons, Christ and the Holy Spirit; Christ then embodies itself in the form of Jesus, in order to be able to teach man how to achievegnosis, by which they may return to the Pleroma.^[8]

The phrase nowadays translated "forever and ever" comes from a Gnostic formula in the New Testament:

In saecula saeculorum

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Latin phrase in saecula saeculorum expresses the idea of eternity. It is biblical, taken from the Vulgate translation of the New Testament, rendering Greek εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. The usual English translation is "for ever and ever", but in Ephesians 3:21, the KJV notably has "world without end". Neither translation is literal, as the time span invoked is not literally eternity but an aiōn in Greek, translated as saeculum in Latin, and elevated to "an aiōn of aiōna" or "a saeculum of saecula". The saeculum in Roman antiquity was the potential maximal human lifespan, or roughly a century. The original meaning ofaiōn was comparable, and it is so used in Homer and Hesiod. So, presumably a "century of centuries" or "an age of ages" would amount to "ten thousand years". Some alternative English translations aim at greater literality in their rendition of Ephesians 3:21: Young's Literal Translation and the Darby Translation have "of the age of the ages", Webster's Revision has "throughout all ages" while the New Living Translation has "through endless ages".

The phrase occurs twelve times in the Book of Revelation alone, and another seven times in epistles, but not in the gospels: Galatians 1:5, Ephesians 3:21, Philippians 4:20, 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Timothy 4:18,Hebrews 13:21, 1 Peter 4:11, Revelation 1:18, 4:9, 10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 14:11, 15:7, 19:3, 20:10, 22:5.

It is taken up in medieval Christian liturgy, such as in the Tantum Ergo by Thomas Aquinas, in Veni Creator Spiritus, Gloria Patri and numerous other instances.

It does not occur in the Old Testament, which has other expressions for eternity, in Latin in aeternum et ultra "for eternity and beyond", rendering the Hebrew עד עולם, LXX εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπέκεινα, in English Bible translations usually also given as "for ever and ever".

[BAMF]

Ted,

Thank you for the explanation. I don't know whether the author intended it, but it's an interesting connection to think about anyhow. I tend to take it in a more positive way, preferring not to think the author was implying anything negative about the material world. Actually, I tend to disregard the author's intentions and place my own meaning in the quotation.

Then again, I'm thinking about the changes Janie (the main character) goes through with each marriage. Her growth is sort of charted through her three marriages. Now I have to go back to where that quote is in the book (during which marriage? what events were going on at this time?) and sort of reevaluate.

Interesting!

Edit: I use the word 'tend' too much maybe?

Edited October 20, 2010 by Kori

[kiaer.ts]

Ted,

Thank you for the explanation. I don't know whether the author intended it, but it's an interesting connection to think about anyhow. I tend to take it in a more positive way, preferring not to think the author was implying anything negative about the material world. Actually, I tend to disregard the author's intentions and place my own meaning in the quotation.

Then again, I'm thinking about the changes Janie (the main character) goes through with each marriage. Her growth is sort of charted through her three marriages. Now I have to go back to where that quote is in the book (during which marriage? what events were going on at this time?) and sort of reevaluate.

Interesting!

Edit: I use the word 'tend' too much maybe?

A work of art is judged on its sense of life and skill in execution, not literally. Rand's favorite painting was of Christ crucified. Gnostic ideas and symbolism permeate our culture.

[BaalChatzaf]

Kori,

That is a really beautiful sentiment.

I don't care where it came from.

I know it is in your heart, and that is all that matters.

Thank you very much for shining a bit through the mud...

Michael

MSK, would you be so kind as to explain to me what that snippet of poetry said.

TIA.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Mikee]

I just finished re-reading "Their Eyes Were Watching God" by Zora Neale Hurston tonight. Here is a quote that struck me that I thought some of you might appreciate.

"When God had made The Man, he made him out of stuff that sung all the time and glittered all over. Then after that some angels got jealous and chopped him into millions of pieces, but still he glittered and hummed. So they beat him down to nothing but sparks but each little spark had a shine and a song. So they covered each one over with mud. And the lonesomeness in the sparks made them hunt for one another, but the mud is deaf and dumb. Like all the other tumbling mud-balls, Janie had tried to show her shine."

And here's one I like...just for me, I guess.

"They seemed to be staring at the dark, but their eyes were watching God."

This has a passive, almost catatonic quality. Strangely, I thought of "Hook", one of my favorite short stories by Walter Van Tilburg Clark. Never stop striving.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

MSK, would you be so kind as to explain to me what that snippet of poetry said.

Bob.

We are all special human individuals in a universe that is a great place to be in, despite some unfriendly aspects--if we only look.

The emotions were reverence and innocent awe/wonder.

All this was highlighted and emphasized with easily imagined metaphors.

EDIT: Here's an added thought on the meaning: the universe is so magnificently constructed for human life that goodness shows through no matter what the obstacles.

On a sense-of-life level this reminds me of Rand's benevolent universe idea.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

MSK, would you be so kind as to explain to me what that snippet of poetry said.

B

All this was highlighted and emphasized with easily imagined metaphors.

EDIT: Here's an added thought on the meaning: the universe is so magnificently constructed for human life that goodness shows through no matter what the obstacles.

Michael

Thank you for your clarification and interpretation.

When you say easily imagined metaphors, pray speak for yourself. I was born literal minded and metaphors are a major obstacle for me. That is one of the down-sides of Asperger's Syndrome.

As to the universe being constructed for us, not so. We evolved through chance because our nature currently is congruent to the universe. If the local scene (planet Earth) changes radically we can be screwed or more important rendered extinct. Just wait for the next asteroid the size of Mt. Everest to strike the Earth or for the Yellowstone Park super-volcano to blow up, and see how well the universe is made for us. It happened to the dinosaurs and it could happen to us.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

As to the universe being constructed for us, not so.

Bob,

That is not what I meant. (Nor did I even mean that the universe had a "constructor.")

I admit words like "for" can be ambiguous, but the way I meant the word "for" here was "with respect to," not "as a gift or payment to."

Anyway, we are talking about an aesthetic experience, not a scientific fact.

Michael