Sign of the Times Middle East Style

[william.scherk]

Having made my pessimistic statement, though, I've realized from reading some of your links that I don't know as much about North Africa as I thought I did.

In short, any separation of mosque and state is a hopeful sign. As you say, it's not only a sectarian problem, it is tribal - and that horror I've known something about in Zaire, Kenya, Zimbabwe, and Southern Africa.

One of the great pleasures of functioning democracy is orderly departures.

Here in British Columbia, one of my most pleasurable political moments was the departure of former Premier Bill Vander Zalm. He had sold his family's Fantasy Garden World property to a Taiwanese developer, but couldn't quite admit to a conflict of interest. When it emerged he had accepted a paper bag stuffed with 20,000 dollars, he resigned within the hour. Bye bye! Another stupid and corrupt BC politician, Glen Clark, had a similar swift departure caused by his own dirty deal. No fuss, no muss, you're caught. Bye Bye!! Not quite the drama of Ceaucescu's firing squad, but hey.

Another great departure was the government of Kim Campbell. She had gone into the 1993 federal election with 169 seats. She retained 2, losing her own by a landslide. Ouch. Bye now!!

What was thrilling for the Arab world who labour under a variety of dictators and kings was the departure of Ben Ali. See ya later!! I take great pleasure in imagining the varied loathsome creatures propped up by security states, each wondering how the fuck their own rule will end.

I shall be dancing when the Libyans say Bye Now!! to their own aging-in-office nutcase. Forty one years and counting . . . if those who have terminal cynicism about who and what will replace Ben Ali over time, at least they can cheer along with Tunisian happiness at seeing him flee. Even if we cannot wisely predict the future, at the very least we can understand Arab folk's desires to see some departures . . .

Plan ahead, Muammar!!

[Selene]

William:

It is always a positive to see these dictators upended.

It is a shame we missed this one when we hit his camp years ago.

Now we have the Lockerbie bomber Megrahi:

"The man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is living with his family in a luxury villa in Libya six months after he was released from jail on compassionate grounds because he had less than three months to live."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/7279123/Lockerbie-bomber-Megrahi-living-in-luxury-villa-six-months-after-being-at-deaths-door.html

Adam

[pippi]

Now we have the Lockerbie bomber Megrahi:

"The man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is living with his family in a luxury villa in Libya six months after he was released from jail on compassionate grounds because he had less than three months to live."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/7279123/Lockerbie-bomber-Megrahi-living-in-luxury-villa-six-months-after-being-at-deaths-door.html

Adam

If he lives past that can he be thrown back in jail? I am sure the answer is no.

[Richard Wiig]

Yep. Sit back and watch the rise of the Islamists in Tunisia...

My crystal ball is on the blink.

I might sit back and watch the growth of freedom instead.

I think we'll just have to sit back and watch--spite and hatred or no spite and hatred.

Michael

The spite is only in your head. The hatred of Islam is definitely there, and I don't hide it one iota. I feel no shame for it. You put a lot of stock in graffiti on a wall and in the goodness of Islam.

[Richard Wiig]

<i>If secular parties emerge triumphant, simply a pause on the journey to Islamic doom.</i>

I'd be very pleased to see secular parties emerge triumphant. You don't have one iota of an inkling as to what motivates me, William Scherk.

[Selene]

<i>If secular parties emerge triumphant, simply a pause on the journey to Islamic doom.</i>

I'd be very pleased to see secular parties emerge triumphant. You don't have one iota of an inkling as to what motivates me, William Scherk.

Richard:

Out of curiosity Richard, what does motivate you?

I have always found that an exposition of motivation and intent goes a long way to making a discussion, or argument, infinitely more valuable and instructive.

Adam

Edited January 25, 2011 by Selene

[Richard Wiig]

In regards to Islam, what motivates me is a concern for the future. If it's not taken seriously, that is, if it's underestimated, then we lose. Freedom loses. Millions of lives are lost. You can speculate all you like as to why I care about that, but know one thing... it ain't bigotry.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I find when people hate so much they invert the cognitive-normative system of thinking, they can contradict themselves with no problem--and often not even be aware of it. It's a very interesting mindset and one I dislike.

The cognitive-normative system means you have to correctly identify something before you evaluate it. When that gets inverted, you are prejudiced, so, in the present context, when you see something, you judge it evil regardless of fact or its own context. You judge something the moment you observe it, and only after that do you identify it. Essentially, you judge the unknown in moral terms and then try to see what it is.

I consider this to be a perversion of rationality.

But look at the following contradiction. It's pretty blatant.

The spite is only in your head. The hatred of Islam is definitely there, and I don't hide it one iota.

The spite is ONLY in my head according to this poster. He just said so. That means it is not in his. Now look at the second sentence. He says it's definitely in his head, too. And proudly so.

This is very sloppy epistemology, but I see it all the time with people who use the normative-cognitive system for their fundamental thinking process.

You can contradict yourself "without shame" when you judge first then identify. The judgment is your standard of correctness, not identification. The hatred is your epistemological anchor, not genus and differentia.

I suppose there could be some hairsplitting over the difference between spite and hatred, but when things get as intense as this poster's prejudice, that would only be a rationalization. In a raging fire, it doesn't matter if the blue flame parts are hotter than the yellow. They're all burning the same thing.

Michael

[anthony]

I suppose there could be some hairsplitting over the difference between spite and hatred, but when things get as intense as this poster's prejudice, that would only be a rationalization. In a raging fire, it doesn't matter if the blue flame parts are hotter than the yellow. They're all burning the same thing.

Michael

Now that's poetic, indeed. B)

A very good post, Michael.

Tony

[william.scherk]

The spite is only in your head. The hatred of Islam is definitely there, and I don't hide it one iota.

The spite is ONLY in my head according to this poster. He just said so. That means it is not in his. Now look at the second sentence. He says it's definitely in his head, too. And proudly so.

[ . . . ]

I suppose there could be some hairsplitting over the difference between spite and hatred, but when things get as intense as this poster's prejudice, that would only be a rationalization. In a raging fire, it doesn't matter if the blue flame parts are hotter than the yellow. They're all burning the same thing.

Well, does Richard show spite in all this posts on Islam? Does he desire to harm, annoy, frustrate, or humiliate another person, evince bitter ill will, use rancor, venom and spleen to advance his argument?

I do think Richard has fused Muslim with Islam in his mind, though he occasionally marks the difference. He hates Islam but not individual muslims, or so he says, but he also styles himself an expert on what Islam really is, and disregards any item that shows a multiplicity of views among Muslims. He fears that under any Muslim, the pure evil core of Islam beats like a heart.

So, there is no arguing with him about 'moderate Islam,' since it doesn't really exist but as a mask. There is no distinction between the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban, the Shi'a suicide bomber and Rashid Ghannouchi. It's all a smear of bloody evil. It's all the same, all beastly, all to be loathed and feared, Sunni, Shi'a, Tunisian, Ismaili, whatever. All a pot of jihadi violence, death, blood, killing, repression, foulness, stink, blackness and horror.

I can only pity a prejudice and righteousness this profound.

Islam, in its entirety, is about subjugating the infidel. The fact that some muslims don’t follow their teaching to the zenith, either because they don’t understand it, or because they are too lazy, or because they want to pretend that’s not really what Islam means, doesn’t alter the menace of what Islam is.

Barely a handful of the so-called moderates will have done anything to stop it. Why won’t they have? Because it (Jihad) is part of their religion and they will not go against their religion, which is, really, as good as supporting it. Until such time as I see so-called “moderates” standing up for individual rights and freedom, then it’s entirely apt for me to say that the entirety of the religion is against us, because it is.

Islam cannot be reformed, because the Qur’an is the “perfect word of God”. Any tinkering with the perfect word of God is to make it imperfect. It’s the kind of thing you’ll get your head smited at your neck for.

[Richard Wiig]

but he also styles himself an expert on what Islam really is, and disregards any item that shows a multiplicity of views among Muslims

No I do not. And I'm the one who's supposed to be prejudiced here. I don't see much of an objective analysis from either you or Michael.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Richard,

If you want to see "objective" comments on Islam, I suggest you look up my writing here on OL on the Nazi connection. You will find lots of links to learn lots of stuff.

Or, if you are not in the mood to search, go to the site Tell The Children The Truth for a mountain of documentation from the real world, not just syllogisms.

That is, if you are truly interested in "objective analysis."

Michael

[william.scherk]

but he also styles himself an expert on what Islam really is, and disregards any item that shows a multiplicity of views among Muslims

No I do not.

Really? If that is true, and you do not, I am glad. I am happy to be shown that I am wrong, that you are not prejudiced, that you are fair-minded and thoughtful.

You: Islam, in its entirety, is about subjugating the infidel. Until such time as I see so-called “moderates” standing up for individual rights and freedom, then it’s entirely apt for me to say that the entirety of the religion is against us, because it is. Islam cannot be reformed, because the Qur’an is the “perfect word of God”.

Show us we are wrong about your attitudes, Richard. How about a little essay on Tunisia? If you lay out your perceptions and predictions of the course of the Tunisian revolution, and show knowledge of the actors and possible outcomes, I would be happy to discuss with you, setting aside my own prejudices about your beliefs . . .

[Selene]

William:

"A picture is worth a thousand tweets, especially when Twitter is blocked in Egypt in order to halt the transfer of information about the ongoing demonstrations in Egypt today.

Egyptian blogger, Zeinobia, decided to take her camera and go down to the streets and take some photographs and upload them to her Flickr account. Here are some of her photographs:

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/01/25/egypt-the-january-25-demonstrations-in-photographs/

Looks like huge demonstrations today in Egypt. Lot's of pro Tunisia support. Numerous anti-Mubarak signs.

Also, appears that ninety percent [90%] of the demonstrators were young and not Egyptian Brotherhood members. A good sign.

Looks truly indigenous.

Adam

[Selene]

Looks like it is getting serious in Egypt.

Appointment of new prime minister in Lebanon sparks riotsThousands of anti-government protesters inspired by the Tunisian revolution clashed with riot police in the centre of Cairo today demanding the overthrow of president Hosni Mubarak.

Police responded with water cannon and attacked crowds with batons and tear gas to clear crowds demanding an end to the country's grinding poverty.

The prostest, the largest Egypt has seen for years, began peacefully, with police showing unusual restraint in what appeared to be a concerted government effort not to provoke a Tunisia-like mass revolt.

As the crowds in central Cairo's main Tahrir square continued to build, however, security personnel changed tactics and the protest turned violent.

Scroll down for video

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350459/Egypt-Lebanon-protests-Thousands-clash-police-streets.html#ixzz1C9uCleQI

[BaalChatzaf]

The Middle Class may be rebelling to day, but will the Brotherhood pick up the pieces tomorrow?

Good luck to the Egyptians. They will need all they can get.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Richard Wiig]

But look at the following contradiction. It's pretty blatant.

The spite is only in your head. The hatred of Islam is definitely there, and I don't hide it one iota.

The spite is ONLY in my head according to this poster.

What I mean't was, I didn't post out of spite.

He just said so.

I said I hate Islam. Nothing wrong with that. How can you love a creed that leads to the massacre of little kids at Beslan, or blowing people into pieces in international airports? I don't see how any rational person can love a creed that leads to that.

That means it is not in his. Now look at the second sentence. He says it's definitely in his head, too. And proudly so.

Absolutely. I hate Islam. So what? That doesn't mean that all my actions are motivated out of spite. I'm not consumed by hatred. I hate socialism and fascism too, but I'm not motivated by spite when it comes to them anymore than I am over Islam. That construction is only in your head.

You can contradict yourself "without shame" when you judge first then identify. The judgment is your standard of correctness, not identification. The hatred is your epistemological anchor, not genus and differentia.

Well, what I've judged here is the taking of a piece of graffiti as a sign that the writing is on the wall for tyranny and that freedom will break out in its place. Essentially all I've said is that I'm very skeptical about that and that more information is needed than a mere slogan on a wall, yet you turn that into bigotry. Do you have proof that the writer means the same thing by "freedom" that you mean? If the writer does, then is the writer part of a popular movement that is pushing for this freedom? What kind of strength is it in compared to the forces that are working against freedom?

[Richard Wiig]

Richard,

If you want to see "objective" comments on Islam, I suggest you look up my writing here on OL on the Nazi connection. You will find lots of links to learn lots of stuff.

Or, if you are not in the mood to search, go to the site Tell The Children The Truth for a mountain of documentation from the real world, not just syllogisms.

That is, if you are truly interested in "objective analysis."

Michael

I know about the Nazi links. Pamella Geller has extensively documented them. That site seems to be saying that Jihad against non-muslims only started with the Nazi links. Is that the case? If so, that site is clearly wrong.

[Richard Wiig]

I don't know a hell of a lot about Tunisia, William, but from what I have read there is a hell of alot of support there for Islam. The Islamist party, when it was given some liberty a few years back, received 32% of the vote, so Ben Ali banned it. It will be back now, and a force to be reckoned with. I hope the movement for freedom that you say is there is greater.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What I mean't was, I didn't post out of spite.

Richard,

This is where we disagree. I think you do post out of spite.

I only have your words to go on. But I am not just going to accept what you say you are doing--I also look at what you actually do.

You present the same spiteful message against Islam over and over and over and there is very little other content you write (that I have read) that does not convey that message, This hatred and spite even carries over in your pen name.

If hatred and spite are the things you keep repeating, whether on the surface or as a subtext, don't be surprised when people judge you to post out of spite.

I learned the hard way to look at what a person says and what he does and use the following standard: if there is a conflict between the two, what he does is a far better indicator of his intentions than what he says.

Michael

[william.scherk]

I don't know a hell of a lot about Tunisia, William, but from what I have read there is a hell of alot of support there for Islam. The Islamist party, when it was given some liberty a few years back, received 32% of the vote, so Ben Ali banned it. It will be back now, and a force to be reckoned with. I hope the movement for freedom that you say is there is greater.

Where does your 32% figure come from?

[caroljane]

So, there is no arguing with him It's all the same, all beastly, all to be loathed and feared, Sunni, Shi'a, Tunisian, Ismaili, whatever. All a pot of jihadi violence, death, blood, killing, repression, foulness, stink, blackness and horror.

I can only pity a prejudice and righteousness this profound.

This resonates with me. My colleague and best friend is an Ismaili Muslim (as is the new mayor of Calgary). Their leader, the Aga Khan, is one of the very few honourary citizens of Canada. He enjoins his followers to adopt the dress and customs of the country in which they live, and participate fully in its culture. My friend is very devout and derives great strength from her faith. If jihad means subjugation of the infidel, nobody in her mosque has ever told her about it, and nobody in her community has heard it either.

About half the ESL students I teach are Muslims, immigrants and refugees, and I think iin 13 years I have come to know Muslims from most countries and cultures. At a bare minimum 200 students a year, for 13 years-- I know what many of them think the core of their religion is.

How many have you interviewed, Mr. Wiig?

[Richard Wiig]

I don't need to interview any muslims to know that there are nice muslims, Mr Lynam. I know there are nice muslims, from experience, and I know that not everything about Islam is bad. None of that interests me though, because it isn't the benign parts of Islam that are a concern. But anyway, seeing as it matters to you - for some strange reason - I have met muslims, and I do know muslims. I have travelled in Indonesia where I met many friendly muslims. I befriended a muslim woman there who'd had her bag stolen on a bus we were both travelling on. I stayed in her parents home and she took me all around the place introducing me to her friends. I spent nearly a week with her. But none of that matters. There is a jihad going on, and that's what matters. It seems to me that for many people, what they see as bigotry is of greater concern to them than such things as jihadists blowing people up at the baggage claim areas of international airports.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Infidel

[Richard Wiig]

32%

It caim from an article I read at Pamela Geller's website. I didn't check its validity.

Update:

17% was the official vote count. The 30% to 35% figure was an estimate of what it may actually have been, due to voting corruption.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Infidel

[Richard Wiig]

Michael:

You think I post out of spite, but you don't know it. You don't know me one iota, yet you act as if you do. I know that spite doesn't drive, so that's all that matters. You haven't answered my questions.