Peikoff on Alcoholics Anonymous


Recommended Posts

Thanks Michael.

I'm one month into my sobriety. Things are good, no burning desires, my mind is sharp again and life is good. The hardest part has been my lack of patience for any type of trust and forgiveness by those around me I negatively affected by my behavior.

The club I attend is notoriously less religious than others in the area - yet I'm constantly reminded that the program won't work with half measures, or if I don't turn my life over to my higher power, and let him do the thinking for me.

According to their doctrine, I can either "come around" to their way of thinking and have God in my life - or I can expect failure. The chapter We the Agnostics in the Big Book spells this out clearly. Even your family will "come around" eventually according to the gospel according to Bill.

After last night's meeting, it was suggested that I sing "Jesus Loves Me" when things get hard, and to let Jesus take the wheel - and stop thinking I could control this problem through sheer willpower. I was, and extended a warm "thank you," but I felt like a phony, and made a hasty exit before anyone else could push their religious beliefs on me.

AA claims to be open to those of all beliefs, but I think that's deceptive. There is the long term expectation that you will "come around" if you want to be successful. That you'll hand your life over to the collective and let God guide your actions.

I'll keep going to their meetings - but with the knowledge that it's not a long term solution. Meanwhile, I'm looking into other organizations and groups who specifically exclude any religious aspect from their program, such as the Secular Organization for Sobriety.

If I can't find one, I'll organize my own secular group for those in recovery and apply objectivist philosophy, where rational thinking is applied, and the strength within one's own self can in fact lead to continued sobriety. One where the individual is given credit for their successes rather than the collective group or a higher power. One that doesn't become a crutch, or a replacement addiction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

Addiction sucks, not sure why god ever invented it. Facts are objective , but experience is subjective. I think support from ,' fellowshipping' with, former addicts is very beneficial for those seeking to end an addiction, on various levels and especially on a an emotional one.

Jack Trimpey's book "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" discusses addiction from a structual model and not the 'popular' disease model that most programs are based on. I highly recommend this book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jack Trimpey's book "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" discusses addiction from a structual model and not the 'popular' disease model that most programs are based on. I highly recommend this book.

Here is their website:

https://rational.org/index.php?id=1

A...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a rather nice, synchronistic coincidence that Trimpey's theory of addiction recovery is consistent with the theories of Julian Jaynes.

HIs theory also coincides with one of my favorite songs:

The beast in me
Is caged by frail and fragile bars
Restless by day
And by night, rants and rages at the stars
God help the beast in me
The beast in me
Has had to learn to live with pain
And how to shelter from the rain
And in the twinkling of an eye
Might have to be restrained
God help the beast in me
Sometimes it tries to kid me
That it's just a teddy bear
Or even somehow manage
To vanish in the air
Then that is when I must beware
Of the beast in me
That everybody knows
They've seen him out dressed in my clothes
Patently unclear
If it's New York, or New Year
God help the beast in me
The beast in me

It would be nice if this song didn't hit home quite so hard with me...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rational Recovery is great for those who resonate with it.

So far, the only universal I have found in addiction recovery is you have to stop using. That will cure you. But, boy, did I not want to hear that when I was active. :)

How you get to abstinence is another matter.

My advice to addicts (and believe me, I love every one of you) is to try out the different methods and approaches and see which one makes you feel better as you get used to not using. Then go that way.

And don't pay any attention to the bashing one group does to another. They all mean well. But their problems are not your problem, which is to get out of the downward spiral you are in before you kill yourself--and learn to love being alive (without using) again. You loved like that as a child. You can do it again.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

Seems this thread may be a gateway drug into the Objectivist Living forum for some, and I'm the latest. Hi to anyone who's still here after all these years.

I too was wondering how to reconcile the AA principles with an Objectivist mindset, googled it, and landed here. Everyone on the outside seems to have an opinion about AA one way or another, and I managed to raise a few eyebrows in an AA meeting by quoting Ayn Rand.

I'm still less than a few months into their program, and haven't come close to figuring out what AA is all about yet. Ask five people there and you'll get five different opinions. It's quite religious, yet also full of fervent atheists. I can tell they play the 'god as you understand him' card in the hope you'll eventually come around to their understanding. All I can say for sure is it's great to sit in a room full of fellow travelers who know exactly what you are, and at least some of what you're struggling with.

I'm also more of a loner though, and find the social side difficult (even a bit annoying) sometimes. Might have to spend some time in places like here to hear some slightly different perspectives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have a chronic, life-long problem and AA agrees. I have minor addictions I control in various ways. For instance, I do not buy or have in the house foods such as cookies. I may buy and eat one cookie, but never a bag. I don't buy alcohol any more. Too hard on the throat. About once a week I visit a neighbor who pours me a drink or two smothered with coke and I get a nice little buzz and sort of stagger home still legally sober. In this case my problem is not alcoholism but my general health. I want to protect my brain and throat. That's why I ask her to add the coke. It's the chaser. By leaving all the crap in the store I only need a little will power. If it gets into my home I need a stupendous amount of will power and it's easier just to forget the will power and plow through the bag of cookies and not buying another bag. You see, I lack the will power to develop more will power than I need in my immediacy so when something new appears I have no will power reserves. So I just wait until I need to add more will power before making any more being the lazy weakling I am.

I just remembered I hid a candy bar from myself last night so so long for now. (No support groups for cookies and candy.)

--Brant

edit: yummy! (bonus, there's another candy bar I had forgotten about)--I hope you're not offended by my instructive humor; you see, I'm addicted to humor and I come to OL to indulge myself and neither you nor I can stop me here, only the site owner can by banning me (MSK: "I'm sorry to announce that I've banned Brant for being funny--there's a whole wide Internet world out there and he can take it elsewhere--OL is a serious place!")

Edited by Brant Gaede
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it gets into my home I need a stupendous amount of will power and it's easier just to forget the will power and plow through the bag of cookies and not buying another bag. You see, I lack the will power to develop more will power than I need in my immediacy so when something new appears I have no will power reserves. So I just wait until I need to add more will power before making any more being the lazy weakling I am.

Excellent observations Brant.

A...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it gets into my home I need a stupendous amount of will power and it's easier just to forget the will power and plow through the bag of cookies and not buying another bag. You see, I lack the will power to develop more will power than I need in my immediacy so when something new appears I have no will power reserves. So I just wait until I need to add more will power before making any more being the lazy weakling I am.

Excellent observations Brant.

A...

Yep, "lazy weakling" about nails it.

--Brant

but it feels good--I'm addicted to me; I have to hide myself from myself--I started out like an actor playing a part but eventually ended up as Charlton Heston playing God and I couldn't go any further with that)--and when I go to the store I try to avoid the "Brant" isle--(I'm seeking help through hypnosis)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the_writer,

Thank you for showing up.

Don't worry about the defects of AA. Focus on the good there. Here are some thoughts:

1. Regardless of any of AA's defects, I learned how to listen there. When you sit in a meeting, you have to keep your mouth shut and listen until it's your turn to talk. That was fundamental for me. Intellectually I knew it was the right way to be. But I couldn't do it to save my life. I needed practice to develop that skill. AA--meeting after meeting after meeting--was marvelous for me to acquire it.

2. Mirror neurons. If you don't know what this is, I'll explain it later. Let's just say the principle of one addict talking to another works better than a non-addict talking to an addict now has a scientific basis.

This principle doesn't always work, but it works much more often than it doesn't--and that's the way mirror neurons work.

3. There is no single "you"--there are many different forms of "you." That's not precise, but it's the way it feels inside. We don't live as a straight line in our minds, but as waves of awareness--each with it's own needs and characteristics. Some brighter, some darker, some in control and others letting it all hang out. Once again, there is science behind this. Different areas of your brain want different things. This is a long discussion, but it works like this:

The lower brain will control you in matters when the upper brain is too occupied to deal with them. It's your lower brain that feels the cravings. That's why stopping addiction is so hard.

To get and stay sober (or clean), you have to find a way for abstinence to become important to all of the different parts of your brain below your awareness. Only then recovery starts getting easier.

The upper brain can override the lower brain for small bursts of time, but only small bursts of time. This is why you can stop for a bit, grit your teeth, but then relapse and not even realize why or how that happened. It feels like you're a failure, and you are failing when you relapse, but the problem is deeper than simply gritting your teeth and bearing it. If you understand the problem and accept your nature, you can stop failing.

Here's an image to make it more concrete. Imagine an iceberg with you sitting on top. You might want to go in one direction, but all that mass underneath the water is going to drift along according to its own nature. If both directions are the same, great. If not, you are going to lose. For you to control the direction of the iceberg, you have to understand currents and nudge the iceberg into the right ones. Then it goes on its own.

Lower brain here means lizard brain and neomammalian brain (instinct and emotions). Or the underwater part of the iceberg.

Upper brain means prefrontal neocortex (reason and will). You on top of the iceberg.

4. Brant's discussion of his willpower (which is purely upper brain stuff) also has a scientific basis. Willpower consumes an enormous amount of calories and gets tired like any muscle does when it goes on too long. This is not just mental, it's physical. I am willing to discuss this later if you are interested.

5. Your recovery is going to consist of retraining your lower brain as much as you can with your upper brain. This is tricky because often your upper brain's intentions (to stop drinking, for instance) can become corrupted by a wave where the lower brain takes over and is on a rampage of craving. And all your cleverness at doing the things you do well in life (believe me, you do have a lot of intelligence and cleverness in you) will turn toward finding another drink, lying to people about your problems, rationalizing your behavior to yourself and so on.

6. All this is why groups like AA are important. The task you have before you is simply too difficult for you to achieve on your own. You need help.

The man who is telling you this--me--needed help. I still do at times.

Put it this way. According to neuroscience, your upper brain processes about 40 sensory inputs per second while the rest of the brain processes 11 to 20 million, depending on who you read. That's 40 to 11,000,000 at best. The 40 are telling you to stop and a good chunk of that 11,000,000 are telling you it's party time. Talk about being outgunned! Is it any wonder it's hard to stop? Why I need help and so do you?

Groups like AA speak to the lower brain through peer pressure, mirror neurons (especially sharing emotions and experiences), repetition, forced listening, and so on. There's a lot of good there. My advice is to keep going and soak up the good stuff.

So what if some of the members are assholes and use group dynamics to try to get prestige and power? Since when do addicts have a monopoly on that? Or a monopoly on being assholes for that matter? :smile: (I have a PHD in that one, myself. :smile: )

So what if they harp on and on about a "higher power" in AA and keep nudging you to a Christian God? Hell, the group itself is a power higher than you are. It can help you stop. You can't do that by yourself. That's power. And that's higher than you can do. So think of your higher power as that kind of reality.

7. I cannot speak for others as each of us are addicted in our own manner, but I went through both AA and NA, first for alcohol, then for crack cocaine. (I know. I'm a fucking hardhead. :smile: ) I did not stay after I got clean--both times. It seemed like there was a point where it worked for me and to keep going would have turned it into some kind of social thing. That's not what I was after. I don't knock people who need that to stay clean and sober, though. Whatever works is good.

These are just a few random thoughts.

I hope you stick around.

I, and some others here, can't make your plight easy. But we can help.

And it's good to see you here looking.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanations Michael, there are several pieces of useful information and a couple of analogies I can relate to in there -- ideas I've had on my mind but which needed confirmation from an external source.

Mirror neurons, higher and lower-brain conflict, 40:11,000,000 sensory inputs. To hear the science and research behind the topic is a lot more valuable than mysticism.

I don't mind AA, and even before I went in there I understood that group therapy, and not mysticism or procedure, was the effective element in such programs. My own group has a healthy subgroup of atheists who, while not Objectivists by any stretch, have an approach I can relate better to.

Anyway, once again, glad to see people here have similar experiences and that an effective program like AA is not dismissed outright -- that would have bothered me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems this thread may be a gateway drug into the Objectivist Living forum for some, and I'm the latest. Hi to anyone who's still here after all these years.

I too was wondering how to reconcile the AA principles with an Objectivist mindset, googled it, and landed here. Everyone on the outside seems to have an opinion about AA one way or another, and I managed to raise a few eyebrows in an AA meeting by quoting Ayn Rand.

I'm still less than a few months into their program, and haven't come close to figuring out what AA is all about yet. Ask five people there and you'll get five different opinions. It's quite religious, yet also full of fervent atheists. I can tell they play the 'god as you understand him' card in the hope you'll eventually come around to their understanding. All I can say for sure is it's great to sit in a room full of fellow travelers who know exactly what you are, and at least some of what you're struggling with.

I'm also more of a loner though, and find the social side difficult (even a bit annoying) sometimes. Might have to spend some time in places like here to hear some slightly different perspectives.

AA is about you but that's up to you.

--Brant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Step 1 Stop

Step 2 Don't

Simple, not easy. However you manage it is up to you.

Let's see if I got that right.

(Filtering through that SOB addict's brain inside me.)

Stop

Don't

Hmmmm...

Stop

Hmmmm...

Don't

Stop

Don't

Stop

Hmmmm...

Don't stop

Don't stop

Don't stop

Don't stop

Hmmmm...

Don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop...

:)

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the explanations Michael, there are several pieces of useful information and a couple of analogies I can relate to in there -- ideas I've had on my mind but which needed confirmation from an external source.

Mirror neurons, higher and lower-brain conflict, 40:11,000,000 sensory inputs. To hear the science and research behind the topic is a lot more valuable than mysticism.

I don't mind AA, and even before I went in there I understood that group therapy, and not mysticism or procedure, was the effective element in such programs. My own group has a healthy subgroup of atheists who, while not Objectivists by any stretch, have an approach I can relate better to.

Anyway, once again, glad to see people here have similar experiences and that an effective program like AA is not dismissed outright -- that would have bothered me.

Moving from a mindset fermented in alcohol to one where we finally think of ourselves as non-users or even alcoholics who do not drink anymore is the paradigm shift necessary to stop and stay stopped in my opinion. I have heard many people claim to have experienced that shift within a very short time and perhaps to a degree that is true. However, I believe it takes a longer period of time for the real deep rooted changes to take place. Often these are accomplished in small increments that build one upon the other until major changes occur in our thinking and our reactions to the world around us. These changes are necessary because just removing the alcohol from the system is not enough to turn most alcoholics into sober people. If this were so we could get ourselves locked up a month or so and everything would be fine. The amount of relapses which occur with those trying to become sober or clean attest to the fact it is just not that easy for majority of people.

The last thing I wish to do is to come off like I am bragging but I experienced the depths of alcohol abuse and the resultant destruction which it brought about in my life and have now experienced over 20 years without a drink. I was one of those who were able to recover by attending the rooms of AA and I do believe the program can work. I am not, however, a person who believes AA's way is the only way or maybe I would go so far to say it may not even be the best way. The trouble is while looking for the "best way" we can often wind up dead or with serious mental and physical ailments. Thus if you are in AA you have a decent chance of living a life free of addiction or at least the practice of that addiction.

The way I look at AA is it is a program that can be molded to fit around most anyone. I do not prescribe to the Procrustean Method that often runs rampant in the rooms. In other words I don't think a person should be forced into a certain AA approach that someone else has found, which works for them, but rather I feel the steps should be used with the individual in mind. I often think the ego of some of AA's members override better judgment when working with other members.

When I stopped smoking 10 years ago I was able to use the things I had learned while recovering from an alcoholic mind to put the cigarettes down and not pick them up again.

I see no reason you cannot employ what you read here in these forums into your quest for sobriety.

In borrowing from an old AA saying "Use what you can and leave the rest." You might find at a later time that you will revisit what you have left early on.

The very best of luck to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think addiction and getting beyond it in at least a practical way ultimately involves moral choices. One doesn't have to go to AA, but if it helps I say go right ahead. A drinking addiction can be handled by some atomistically, but that's usually the hardest way. I once knew a heroin addict who checked into a motel or hotel for a week and ended his use of heroin that way. And he stayed off it. I don't know the kind of withdrawal hell he went through or how he handled it. Various addictions seem to me to have various intensities. I smoked for maybe 5 years. Then I stopped. In those smoking years, however, not once did I wake up at night needing a drag. I know smokers who do.

--Brant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now