on strike...

[Francisco Ferrer]

Moralist writes, "But the difference between us is that I'm referring to the present."

False. You have not been referring just to the present. In Post #7, you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people."

The U.S. Constitution was adopted in 1789. This is 2014.

Since you are loath to discuss the "dead past," an era that includes the legal, Constitutional enslavement of millions of people, then there can be no discussion of the design of American government, an act that took place 75 years before the abolition of slavery in America.

You write, "The flaw in your mindset is your religious faith in ideological purity. In your religion if someone is not perfect, everything they say and do is null and void."

False. I'll disprove that assertion right now. President Obama is the opposite of me in all ideological respects. In his six years in office he has advanced the growth of government on every front. As a free market anarchist, I have sought to whittle the state down to a pile of sawdust.

On Oct. 11, Barack Obama said, "Right now, a worker on the federal minimum wage earns $7.25 an hour."

Obama is correct on that particular fact. My general disagreement with Obama, while acknowledging his ability to be truthful on one point, demonstrates that your assertion about my ideological purity is false.

Now, speaking of Obama, let's return to a point you made in Post #7. You wrote that the American system of government does "not work for the indecent."

Therefore, if Obama is not decent, the government does not work for him. He can't get healthcare laws passed. He can't send military forces to various parts of the work. He can't issue executive orders. He can't appoint people to federal office.

On the other hand, if he is able to get things done in the office of president, he must be decent.

Which is it, Moralist?

[Brant Gaede]

Didn't Rand say you don't argue with an irrationalist?

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

The boycott of tyranny.

It's kind of hard to do with with a totalitarian tyranny.

--Brant

It's impossible for even totalitarian tyranny to ever become total. For the bigger the bureaucracy, the more incompetence, and the bigger the cracks through which to fall if you so choose.

Greg

This is the converse of the argument against Utopia--that is, perfection is not possible for humans aren't perfect. The totalitarians, however--the agents of totalitarianism--don't need perfection to dig you out of your hole in the ground and kill you no matter what your decency level. They may cart you off at the same time they cart off your only half as decent neighbor.

I do think you need not fear the squirrels. You know how to handle those guys.

--Brant

[moralist]

Moralist writes, "But the difference between us is that I'm referring to the present."

False. You have not been referring just to the present. In Post #7, you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people."

I am referring to today, Frank.

I'm referring to the American form of government as it is today. The American form of government today only works for decent people. It would work for you too... but you first need to change how you are living, to become deserving of a decent government. But you won't... so you are getting exactly the indecent government you deserve. The government you're experiencing is a perfect match to your own values.

Only failures blame the government for what is their own personal responsibility.

Greg

[moralist]

The boycott of tyranny.

It's kind of hard to do with with a totalitarian tyranny.

--Brant

It's impossible for even totalitarian tyranny to ever become total. For the bigger the bureaucracy, the more incompetence, and the bigger the cracks through which to fall if you so choose.

Greg

This is the converse of the argument against Utopia--that is, perfection is not possible for humans aren't perfect.

Yes it is, Brant.

Both Utopia and Totalitaria are unsustainable impossiblities.

Because humans are totally subjective beings. Our behavior can either be in harmony or in dissonance with objective reality. Bureaucrats are stupid. Think of the guard of Project X they had to get past in Atlas Shrugged. That's the template. They are no match for a moral person who thinks for themselves and knows right from wrong.

The totalitarians, however--the agents of totalitarianism--don't need perfection to dig you out of your hole in the ground and kill you no matter what your decency level. They may cart you off at the same time they cart off your only half as decent neighbor.

Your fears are far greater than mine, Brant. As long as I act in harmony with objective reality by doing what's morally right, I and my loved ones will be just fine.

I do think you need not fear the squirrels. You know how to handle those guys.

Totalitarians are just big squirrels.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Poor Greg. Only in America. (Me too.)

--Brant

God bless America!

BTW, it wasn't Project X unless you're thinking of Stadler, which you aren't

[moralist]

Poor Greg.

I'm not poor.

I'm not a victim either.

I'm an American.

BTW, it wasn't Project X unless you're thinking of Stadler, which you aren't

This was at the end of the story. It was the guard Dagny shot when they went to rescue Galt. Read the conversation which preceded the shooting. That is the classic bureaucratic mindset...

...and Ayn Rand positively nailed it.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

Moralist writes, "But the difference between us is that I'm referring to the present."

False. You have not been referring just to the present. In Post #7, you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people."

I am referring to today, Frank.

I'm referring to the American form of government as it is today. The American form of government today only works for decent people. It would work for you too... but you first need to change how you are living, to become deserving of a decent government. But you won't... so you are getting exactly the indecent government you deserve. The government you're experiencing is a perfect match to your own values.

Only failures blame the government for what is their own personal responsibility.

Greg

You were not referring to the government as it is today when you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people"

The government as it it exists today is not designing the American Constitutional form of government. That was done in the 1780's, a period you have referred to as "the dead past."

Fact: Barack Obama is president. Fact: He collects a salary, lives in the White House, has Secret Service protection and gives the State of the Union Address annually. Fact: He issues orders, and the hirelings in government carry them out. With the possible exception of Edward Snowden, I cannot think of a single federal government worker who has refused to carry out an Obama order.

Clearly, the government is working for Obama. Therefore, following your maxim that "American form of government today only works for decent people," Obama must be decent.

The conclusion is inescapable. It is either A or non-A. But not both at the same time.

Then you state, "you are getting exactly the indecent government you deserve." What indecent government are you referring to? You have already taken a stand on the premise that "government today only works for decent people."

So how in the name of non-contradiction can the government be indecent? Are you saying that the The American Constitutional form of government that was designed only to work for decent people is actually an indecent government?

[moralist]

Moralist writes, "But the difference between us is that I'm referring to the present."

False. You have not been referring just to the present. In Post #7, you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people."

I am referring to today, Frank.

I'm referring to the American form of government as it is today. The American form of government today only works for decent people. It would work for you too... but you first need to change how you are living, to become deserving of a decent government. But you won't... so you are getting exactly the indecent government you deserve. The government you're experiencing is a perfect match to your own values.

Only failures blame the government for what is their own personal responsibility.

Greg

You were not referring to the government as it is today when you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people"

That's exactly how the government is operating today, Frank.

You're getting the government you deserve today... and so am I... and so is everyone else in America.

Now if you changed how you are living so as to deserve a decent government instead of carping about as if was your enemy, the quality of your life would improve. But from the nature of your responses, it's clear that you'd rather live inside your fantasy that it's the government's fault for how your life has turned out, and not your own.

So blame away, Frank.

It's the refuge of failures.

You're getting what you deserve.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government. That happened in what you call the "dead past."

If, as you say, "government today only works for decent people," then Obama must be a decent man. He has millions working for him and under him.

Obama, Biden, the Cabinet, tens of thousands of bureaucrats, and thousands of liberal and Marxist professors are all paid handsome salaries and other tax-funded benefits today because they were able to get the government to work for them.

How did they do that? By living decent lives, of course!

If you want government to work for you, the answer is simple. Live your life more like Obama.

[moralist]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government.

Your own personal experience of those government operations today is determined by how you are living your life today. You are the only one who chooses the kind of government you are getting today, because that's the government you deserve today.

However you try to squirm away from it... the fact remains that you are choosing your own personal experience of the government you are getting by how you are living today. I'm making a point to use the word today in every sentence as your mind is stuck in the dead past. This is why you are so ill equipped to deal with the here and now, and is the reason you blame (unjustly accuse) the government for your own failure to live in the present.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government.

Your own personal experience of those government operations today is determined by how you are living your life today. You are the only one who chooses the kind of government you are getting today, because that's the government you deserve today.

However you try to squirm away from it... the fact remains that you are choosing your own personal experience of the government you are getting by how you are living today. I'm making a point to use the word today in every sentence as your mind is stuck in the dead past. This is why you are so ill equipped to deal with the here and now, and is the reason you blame (unjustly accuse) the government for your own failure to live in the present.

Greg

Maybe he's the hero and you're not--except to yourself. In no ways has FF yet told you how he lives his own personal life.

Is heroism altruistic?

An Objectivist conundrum. Was Ragnar an altruist? John? Frisco? Now--stick Greg into Atlas Shrugged. What's he to do?

--Brant

were they heroes for the elite only?

[Francisco Ferrer]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government.

Your own personal experience of those government operations today is determined by how you are living your life today. You are the only one who chooses the kind of government you are getting today, because that's the government you deserve today.

However you try to squirm away from it... the fact remains that you are choosing your own personal experience of the government you are getting by how you are living today. I'm making a point to use the word today in every sentence as your mind is stuck in the dead past. This is why you are so ill equipped to deal with the here and now, and is the reason you blame (unjustly accuse) the government for your own failure to live in the present.

Greg

That's right. Obama is serving as president today and has all the power, privilege, and prestige of that office today because of how he lived his life. If he had not lived a decent life, he would not have the government working for him today. After all, "government today only works for decent people."

You can talk about presidents in the dead past if you want. But you can't squirm away from the fact that Barack Obama is the president in the here and now. He chose it and he deserves it.

People who carp, criticize and chastise Obama (unjustly) have only themselves to blame. He is successful. They are not. He lived a decent life. They did not.

Obama is the designer of our American system of Constitutional government.

And crown thy good with brotherhood

From sea to shining sea!

[moralist]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government.

Your own personal experience of those government operations today is determined by how you are living your life today. You are the only one who chooses the kind of government you are getting today, because that's the government you deserve today.

However you try to squirm away from it... the fact remains that you are choosing your own personal experience of the government you are getting by how you are living today. I'm making a point to use the word today in every sentence as your mind is stuck in the dead past. This is why you are so ill equipped to deal with the here and now, and is the reason you blame (unjustly accuse) the government for your own failure to live in the present.

Greg

In no ways has FF yet told you how he lives his own personal life.

Principle: When people tell you how they view the world... they've told you how they live in the world.

Frank has made it clear that he blames the government. People who blame others have failed to live properly in this world, because they fantasize themselves as innocent victims of government oppression, when in reality the oppression is completely self inflicted by how they live.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

The operations of the government today do not include the design of the American Constitutional form of government.

Your own personal experience of those government operations today is determined by how you are living your life today. You are the only one who chooses the kind of government you are getting today, because that's the government you deserve today.

However you try to squirm away from it... the fact remains that you are choosing your own personal experience of the government you are getting by how you are living today. I'm making a point to use the word today in every sentence as your mind is stuck in the dead past. This is why you are so ill equipped to deal with the here and now, and is the reason you blame (unjustly accuse) the government for your own failure to live in the present.

Greg

In no ways has FF yet told you how he lives his own personal life.

Principle: When people tell you how they view the world... they've told you how they live in the world.

Frank has made it clear that he blames the government. People who blame others have failed to live properly in this world, because they fantasize themselves as innocent victims of government oppression, when in reality the oppression is completely self inflicted by how they live.

Greg

So much for the heroes of AS. So much for Ayn Rand. So much for the Founding Fathers (and their "decent" philosophy).

--Brant

could Greg be right?--is philosophy crap?

[Francisco Ferrer]

Principle: When people tell you how they view the world... they've told you how they live in the world.

Frank has made it clear that he blames the government. People who blame others have failed to live properly in this world, because they fantasize themselves as innocent victims of government oppression, when in reality the oppression is completely self inflicted by how they live.

Greg

I don't blame government because, as you've shown, government only works for decent people. Therefore, Obama and the Democrats in power must be decent.

Furthermore, the people that criticize Obama (and other successful politicians who have made government work for them) are failures, losers, and self-inflicted victims.

What America needs now is more winners like Obama.

[moralist]

Principle: When people tell you how they view the world... they've told you how they live in the world.

Frank has made it clear that he blames the government. People who blame others have failed to live properly in this world, because they fantasize themselves as innocent victims of government oppression, when in reality the oppression is completely self inflicted by how they live.

Greg

I don't blame government because, as you've shown, government only works for decent people. Therefore, Obama and the Democrats in power must be decent.

Your previous posts are ample proof that you do blame government, Frank.

Obama and the Democrats only govern the indecent, because the indecent created the liberal socialist government in their own indecent image.

They don't govern Americans because Americans govern themselves.

I fully understand that you will never understand this moral principle because it flies in the face of your fantasy of being an "innocent victim of government oppression". That's just what failures do. They blame government for their own failure. You'll live with your choice to be a blamer, and all of its deserved consequences for the rest of your life... just as I live with my choice and all of its deserved consequences for the rest of mine. So you see we are each getting exactly what we each deserve. I'm not writing this to convince you of anything, as only your real life has the power to change your mindset. I'm just writing this for my own amusement and entertainment.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

In Post #7 you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people... it [does] not work for the indecent."

Therefore, if we now, as you say, have a "liberal socialist government," it must be a decent liberal socialist government. Otherwise, your claim that government does "not work for the indecent" would be false.

It must be A or non-A, but not both at the same time.

Further, you claim that Obama and the Democrats "don't govern Americans because Americans govern themselves." That means that Americans have a government separate from the one over which Obama is head of state. Accordingly, Americans would have to have a different president. What, I wonder, would his name be? It would also mean that Americans do not support Obama's government with tax money. Where would Americans send their tax money if not to the IRS with its commissioner appointed by Barack Obama? Do Americans have an army, a navy and an air force under a commander-in-chief entirely separate from the forces under Obama? On what military bases are these separate American forces stationed?

Do the Americans have troops in the Middle East separate from those sent by Obama? Nuclear weapons? Satellites in space? National parks with their own Grand Canyon and Old Faithful? Treaties with foreign countries? Ambassadors in foreign capitals?

Tell more!

[Jules Troy]

I for the most part ignore government as much as possible other than obvious stuff like obeying speed limits etc. Low and behold I find that I'm not actually breaking any laws!(anymore heehee)

[moralist]

I for the most part ignore government as much as possible other than obvious stuff like obeying speed limits etc. Low and behold I find that I'm not actually breaking any laws!(anymore heehee)

That's just the right attitude, Jules.

To the extent that you live a decent life deserving of a decent government... to that same extent the government leaves you alone to enjoy your life, your liberty and to pursue your happiness.

The government leaves me to choose where to live, to chose where I go, free to choose when and how and for whom I work, and free to do business with other Capitalists, and free to create wealth, and free to have fun and enjoy the good things in life.

Greg

[moralist]

In Post #7 you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people... it [does] not work for the indecent."

Therefore, if we now, as you say, have a "liberal socialist government...

Wrong again, Frank.

I never said we.

You are experiencing the liberal socialist government you deserve... not me.

This is because we each live by completely different sets of moral values.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

If you are not experiencing the liberal socialist government, if you have no evidence of it through your own senses, how do you know it exists? Did you hear about it through the rumor mill?

And once more I ask: if as you say Obama and the Democrats "don't govern Americans because Americans govern themselves," how is this non-Obama government financed? Surely Americans would not be sending tax money to Obama's government as well as to their own separate American government, would they? Where would American tax dollars go if not to the IRS with its commissioner appointed by Barack Obama?

[anthony]

I think it's not so much that Greg isn't cognizant of Big Government, it's that he refuses to allow it cognizance. That's the start of shrinking government, when enough 'moralists' won't pay it any attention - because they can't see it and don't need it. Statists and bureaucrats are accustomed to being opposed, they thrive on it; being ignored/not needed is their nightmare.

[Brant Gaede]

In Post #7 you wrote, "The American Constitutional form of government was designed only to work for decent people... it [does] not work for the indecent."

Therefore, if we now, as you say, have a "liberal socialist government...

Wrong again, Frank.

I never said we.

You are experiencing the liberal socialist government you deserve... not me.

This is because we each live by completely different sets of moral values.

Greg

If we say they're different isn't to say one or the other is immoral just not the best choice for Greg according to Greg.

--Brant

the implication of either or implies there aren't any other ors and the other guy's values are best in the dumpster of life choices, but Greg is trying to universalize out of his self-perceived successes not using the abstraction ability needed for that while FF is mostly dealing with political-economic abstractions so all they do is side-swipe each other without much effect save for third-parties trying to figure it all out

[moralist]

If you are not experiencing the liberal socialist government, if you have no evidence of it through your own senses, how do you know it exists?

There is an objective principle which is beyond your understanding. It's outside of your mindset. Which is the reason why you are so poorly equipped to deal with the present with a mind so stuck up in the dead past.

This is the objective principle in one simple sentence... ok, Frank, here it comes:

"The government treats EACH individual DIFFERENTLY."

In every response you've made, this principle doesn't even register in your mind. You think the government treats you exactly the same as it treats me.This of course is a lie. The government treats me completely different than it treats you... because we each live by completely different values.

Greg