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Good morning

I am Michael from NYC. I first read The Fountainhead in a Catholic high school and met Ayn Rand in Boston that same year. I brought with me a copy of her Letter, "The Stimulus and the Response", one of my favorites, because I knew I'd be waiting on for hours. (I'd arrived at 10 am; she spoke at 8 pm.)

I didn't imagine that I'd actually meet her, or that she would sign my copy of my favorite article.

I remember walking away from her, arrested by her signature, thinking "written with the pen of Ayn Rand, the pen ultimate".

Now I own Pen Ultimate Rare Books, which specializes in manuscripts and first editions by Rand, many signed, photographs, and other Randabilia. I also have many books which were "recommended readings for students of Objectivism.". I even have that NBI brochure : )

I've used OL forum for research for years in building my collection. This morning, I wanted to say "Thanks everyone!" and join myself.

Michael

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Nice of you to reply so rapidly Michael.

My only problem with OL is I can't leave it. I've just learned in the thread about Ayn Rand's anger that she lectured at Bronx Community College is 1970--a college I would teach at in the 90's. Quite amazing what you can find here.

Once again, thank you for making all this available.

Best, Michael

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Hey Marc

Good to hear from you and thank you for your welcome.

We actually lunched at a fashionable eatery right here in Chelsea called Cafeteria.

Not sure if Don posts here, but I'm certain he knows of it. How do I know? Don almost invariably knows what's happening in Objectivism long before I do.

I scooped him only once in all the years I've known him, just recently in fact. I learned, while vacationing in Amsterdam this May, that the world premier of the stage version of The Fountainhead was making its debut there in June. Don hadn't known this; nor did I find anyone else who knew about it.

Cheers, Michael

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Great group of folks here ! The best site for Objectivists/ Rand lovers in the history of the world !

With your knowledge of Rand , your stories , your connects - damn , you are going to be a superstar here !

Don is at the centre of the world, no doubt !

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Love exploring the site and learning all sorts of factoids I didn't know. Rand's lecturing at BCC blew me away because, as I wrote, decades later, I taught there. Plus I enjoy reading and rereading Barbara Branden, whom I'd met several times. Fine writer and a fine lady.

Looks as though I'm speaking with a star here already.

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Good morning

I am Michael from NYC. I first read The Fountainhead in a Catholic high school and met Ayn Rand in Boston that same year. I brought with me a copy of her Letter, "The Stimulus and the Response", one of my favorites, because I knew I'd be waiting on for hours. (I'd arrived at 10 am; she spoke at 8 pm.)

I didn't imagine that I'd actually meet her, or that she would sign my copy of my favorite article.

I remember walking away from her, arrested by her signature, thinking "written with the pen of Ayn Rand, the pen ultimate".

Now I own Pen Ultimate Rare Books, which specializes in manuscripts and first editions by Rand, many signed, photographs, and other Randabilia. I also have many books which were "recommended readings for students of Objectivism.". I even have that NBI brochure : )

I've used OL forum for research for years in building my collection. This morning, I wanted to say "Thanks everyone!" and join myself.

Michael

Pen Ultimate. That has a certain ring.

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Thanks. The teenager I was decided when we met that "hers was the pen ultimate". Also had the audacity to tell her what was "the greatest line in world literature". I'd probably read fewer than a dozen novels when I imparted that revelation to Ayn Rand.

She was very gracious and thanked me "for notizing zhat line, young man".

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Thanks. The teenager I was decided when we met that "hers was the pen ultimate". Also had the audacity to tell her what was "the greatest line in world literature". I'd probably read fewer than a dozen novels when I imparted that revelation to Ayn Rand.

She was very gracious and thanked me "for notizing zhat line, young man".

Hi and welcome. Any friend of Marc, etc!

I am interested in your recollection of deciding that you had read the greatest of world literature in Rand?... Obviously as a book dealer you have read more than a a dozen novels by now ... Do you still consider her a great novelist? I am not convinced that she so considered herself.

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Hello Daunce

Yes, Marc is most prepossessing. I liked him instantly and one cannot help but like him.

True, I've read many dozens of novels by now (I was an English major at a Jesuit university), and Rand is still my favorite novelist by far. I reread her novels more often than some others I enjoy, and I believe I understand her better because she was so much clearer. Yet, I still learn more each time I reread--a paradox, not a contradiction.

May I ask why you aren't convinced about her assessment of herself as a writer?

Michael

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May I ask why you aren't convinced about her assessment of herself as a writer?

Michael

Basically because she is a humanitarian socialist...she doesn't see the chains coming.

Great lady though.

Welcome to OL.

A...

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Nice of you to reply so rapidly Michael.

My only problem with OL is I can't leave it. I've just learned in the thread about Ayn Rand's anger that she lectured at Bronx Community College is 1970--a college I would teach at in the 90's. Quite amazing what you can find here.

Once again, thank you for making all this available.

Best, Michael

I was at the BCC in the late fall of 1970 when she gave a talk or lecture to a pretty jammed pretty large auditorium. I repaired to the balcony. She was accompanied by The Holzers. I don't remember how I heard of it for I can't find an announcement in "The Objectivist." I do not remember the subject matter. I have a problem with this memory because it seems to be two memories. In one I am looking down on the stage and Mark Holzer is helping Rand with her coat just prior to departure and in the other I seem to see the stage while she's answering questions but now everything is turned 180 degrees. The lighting was darker for the former. The change in perspective may be caused by a false memory I created. It's possible, but not something I tend to do. What's not possible is the memories are for two different events. Switching from one side of the balcony to the other might explain some of this confusion I have.

Someone in the audience asked her if she had ever read one book by Immanuel Kant. She talked around the question without really answering it.

I may be repeating what you've already read on that other thread.

--Brant

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Thanks for the welcome A (Selene above)

I'd still like to hear Daunce's (whom I've since learned is Carol) response because I suspect she may have a reason Ayn Rand herself addressed.

But Rand's being "a humanitarian socialist" was not that reason.

Best, Michael

Thanks for the welcome A (Selene above)

I'd still like to hear Daunce's (whom I've since learned is Carol) response because I suspect she may have a reason Ayn Rand herself addressed.

But Rand's being "a humanitarian socialist" was not that reason.

Best, Michael

Adam means I am the socialist,certainly not Rand!

Rand was primarily a philosopher and storyteller in Near Aesopian mode. Šhe was a cinematic writer, with little regard for literary convention or the novel form itself, except for the primacy of plot, plot, plot. She employed a limited vocabulary to create startling two dimensional characters in a bold, near-surreal world dominated by her unique philosophy. Her novels are as unique as she was, but they are not great literature.

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... except for the primacy of plot, plot, plot. She employed a limited vocabulary to create startling two dimensional characters...

Carol,

Be careful with what Rand said as opposed to what she actually did. She talked a lot about plot, plot, plot, but if you look into her stories, the metaphors are as thick as quicksand and they suck you in just as powerfully. (Jackhammer pounding against granite, anyone? :smile: And that one is on the surface.)

Also, the limited vocabulary is an illusion. It's easy to go through her novels and just skip over the big words, but they are there in abundance. The illusion of limited vocabulary comes from the jargon she created and used consistently. Since there are not that many words in her often quirky jargon (who called anyone a looter back then?), and these words call attention to themselves, it seems like there are not many words in the rest. But there are.

As to two-dimensional characters, I have been doing a lot of creative writing study recently and, without even wanting to, this prompts me to think about Rand's character arcs and throughlines. When I started pegging them, the two dimensions suddenly multiplied. Here's just one example of one character: Dagny. (I'm doing this off the top of my head, so I don't have the exact passages, but I will probably write about this later and give all due quotes.)

Dagny had a complexity (among many) in that she cared about people who believed in values she did not share, even when she knew they were opposite of hers. Over the course of the novel she gradually gave up caring about those people and reached the end point in a quite dramatic fashion.

Rand did that throughline in a very precise manner. With each defeat, we saw Dagny trying a little harder, then caring for such people just a little less. She even got to the point where she was ready to watch a bum get thrown off a moving train, but the caring kicked in and she ended up learning the story of the Twentieth Century Motor Company from him. Losing this caring finally reached a "nightmare" point where she had to go off by herself and take a break. She still had a remnant of that caring that called her back with the tunnel disaster. The absolute end her caring throughline was when she shot the guard in cold blood. She didn't give a damn about people like him anymore.

Knowing your bent, that may not be a throughline that agrees with you for any character, but it is there. Throughlines like that do not happen to two-dimensional characters. (Heh. I think you would see it as a gradual descent into hell. :) )

There's a lot more, a hell of a lot more, I could say about Dagny, but later.

I do agree that Rand's villains tend to be two-dimensional, but James Taggart was anything but. How many times did he stare at a button or something like that to keep from thinking about a decision? A two-dimensional sleaze-bag would have immediately jumped on an opportunity to be a sleaze.

I could go on and on and I am tempted, but ironically, I don't want to get sidetracked with Rand right now. :smile: I am studying one of the most important books on world literature I have ever read: The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories by Christopher Booker. (A light read at 800 pages. :smile: ) Later I want to revisit Rand's works in light of what I am learning. Not just in this book, but in several others, too, starting with Aristotle's Poetics.

My point is it is easy to caricature Rand, but when you dig in and start analyzing her stuff with rigor, you see there is a reason her books (especially her fiction) keep selling in the hundreds of thousands year after year. I know of no work where two-dimensional plot-only-focused characters presented with limited vocabulary have been anything but a temporary fad.

Michael

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Thanks for the welcome A (Selene above)

I'd still like to hear Daunce's (whom I've since learned is Carol) response because I suspect she may have a reason Ayn Rand herself addressed.

But Rand's being "a humanitarian socialist" was not that reason.

Best, Michael

Whoa Michael...

Thanks - I should have been clearer, Ayn was no humanist socialist. Carol is a humanist socialist.

Just to be clear.

Additionally, she is far more knowledgeable about the past works of "great" novelists than I am.

A...

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Michael, I don't agree with your "caring" analysis of Dagny's character. You ignored her existential context in the various parts of the novel. For instance, shooting the guard was part of a military operation. The guard was the enemy. She was a slave to her work. That's why she ran back to New York after the tunnel disaster. If she became more alienated to those around her it was because they seemed less and less human as she learned more about them. She discovered the bum on the train was not so alienated. She flew to Utah to save Quentin McDaniels and pursued the "destroyer" for the same reason. Of course there is somre bad and arbitrary writing in there. She--Rand--let Hank fly around Colorado for a month thinking she was dead? That was plot subservience.

--Brant

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Nice of you to reply so rapidly Michael.

My only problem with OL is I can't leave it. I've just learned in the thread about Ayn Rand's anger that she lectured at Bronx Community College is 1970--a college I would teach at in the 90's. Quite amazing what you can find here.

Once again, thank you for making all this available.

Best, Michael

I was at the BCC in the late fall of 1970 when she gave a talk or lecture to a pretty jammed pretty large auditorium. I repaired to the balcony. She was accompanied by The Holzers. I don't remember how I heard of it for I can't find an announcement in "The Objectivist." I do not remember the subject matter. I have a problem with this memory because it seems to be two memories. In one I am looking down on the stage and Mark Holzer is helping Rand with her coat just prior to departure and in the other I seem to see the stage while she's answering questions but now everything is turned 180 degrees. The lighting was darker for the former. The change in perspective may be caused by a false memory I created. It's possible, but not something I tend to do. What's not possible is the memories are for two different events. Switching from one side of the balcony to the other might explain some of this confusion I have.

Someone in the audience asked her if she had ever read one book by Immanuel Kant. She talked around the question without really answering it.

I may be repeating what you've already read on that other thread.

--Brant

Thank you for this extended clarification Brant. I can almost assure you now that there was no announcement in TOM of Rand's speaking at BCC. I will examine my individual issues this weekend, but I'm positive I'd have remembered that. I do remember reading she spoke at Hunter College, where I studied Italian, but not BCC.

Question: did she become angry with the questioner?

Michael

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Thanks for the welcome A (Selene above)

I'd still like to hear Daunce's (whom I've since learned is Carol) response because I suspect she may have a reason Ayn Rand herself addressed.

But Rand's being "a humanitarian socialist" was not that reason.

Best, Michael

Thanks for the welcome A (Selene above)

I'd still like to hear Daunce's (whom I've since learned is Carol) response because I suspect she may have a reason Ayn Rand herself addressed.

But Rand's being "a humanitarian socialist" was not that reason.

Best, Michael

Adam means I am the socialist,certainly not Rand!

Rand was primarily a philosopher and storyteller in Near Aesopian mode. Šhe was a cinematic writer, with little regard for literary convention or the novel form itself, except for the primacy of plot, plot, plot. She employed a limited vocabulary to create startling two dimensional characters in a bold, near-surreal world dominated by her unique philosophy. Her novels are as unique as she was, but they are not great literature.

Carol

First, pardon my grammatical error ("whom I've since learned is Carol"). It hit me last night in bed that I'd written that ghastly clause with "whom" instead of "who".

As well, I seemed to have lost track of the antecedents; I'd thought Adam was referring to AR when he said "humanitarian socialist". Had no idea what he meant, but knew that I didn't want to delve into that. I was sorely tempted to quote Rand's answer to another question in her great Playboy interview with Alvin Toffler: "I truly must say that I don't know what you're talking about" when I'd thought A was calling AR "a humanitarian socialist".

Too, I'd thought that perhaps you thought Rand doubted her accomplishments as a novelist for the reason that I once thought the same: she didn't evaluate her own novels in her essays on literary criticism. But yet again, I was mistaken.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Michael

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Best line, in context, in Fountainhead:

"Take your clothes off." (p. 279 hb, p. 273 pb)

Welcome to OL, Michael.

Do you own a copy of the 1936 edition of We the Living?

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS

In connection with your old favorite line, Michael, the thread of Wynand’s Roman Catholic background is a fun aspect of his character: from his dressing as Cesare Borgia* for a costume party early in the book to his mea culpa as he walks through the city near the end. I gather Rand would have some detail of Catholicism from her husband, who had that background. I was from a Lutheran family and knew nothing of such stuff as mea culpa until years into adulthood.

Rand was reading Etienne Gilson (Thomism) by 1945, as shown in Robert Mayhew’s Ayn Rand’s Marginalia.

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