Introducing myself...


Cheri

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Does anyone want to address my other questions? Or would it be more appropriate for me to take them to another thread/place/forum, since this was really just "introduce yourself"? Not entirely familiar with how the place works yet...

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Does anyone want to address my other questions? Or would it be more appropriate for me to take them to another thread/place/forum, since this was really just "introduce yourself"? Not entirely familiar with how the place works yet...

This thread is fine, but with all the back and forth I'm not sure which questions you are referring to. Would you mind summarizing them again?

Ghs

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Thank you, Michael.

This was my "#2" question. Where would be the best place to post it? There are so many forums and threads, perhaps you can make a recommendation for this newbie?

#2 It has seemed to me, and I'll grant this may just be an impression I've gotten rather than something I've specifically read, that Objetivists typically place less importance on any kind of work that is geared toward helping other people than they place on work that "produces" something tangible. For instance, someone who invents better mousetraps or someone who writes books is regarded as creative and productive, especially if they make lots and lots of money at it, but someone who, say, cares for the elderly because they really enjoy helping people and find it rewarding in other ways than monetarily (because obviously this sort of job doesn't make anyone financially rich) is deemed less productive or even sneered at. (Ugh, again with the ending of a sentence with a preposition.) My question is whether this is actually an accurate perception of Objectivists, or whether it's something I've probably just picked up because of whomever I've happened to encounter.

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Cheri:

About Objectivism would be one...and

Ethics another

pure guesswork on my part though.

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Cheri,

Objectivist Living Room?

Or one of Adam's ideas?

Do whatever feels right to you.

The original idea was for the Living Room to be the general discussion area. But OL grew it its own manner. Trying to keep it all organized has been a bit like trying to herd cats.

Now I like the organized disorganization. You go through bopping around here and there and find gems lying around all over the place. It's kinda cool that way.

Michael

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And I know there's likely not much, if anything, I can do about his unfortunate situation. I have to admit, though, that I've sometimes felt a twinge of guilt over having presented Ayn Rand to him when perhaps he was not equipped to "handle" her.

My feeling is that your foster son will change his mind when (/if) he becomes a parent himself. And at that point he ought to seek you out to apologize*. One of my criticisms of Ayn Rand, or, it’s more of an observation than a criticism, is that her fiction appeals most to people when they’re going through the transition from dependency to self-sufficiency. I’m thinking here of Joseph Campbell’s observations concerning the functions of myth, that we use (/need) mythological metaphors to inform the great transitions in life. Rand, in this sense, doesn’t provide much for people going through the next steps, so, first you achieve independence, but then comes marriage, then by having children you take on your own dependents. Each step requires a serious change in your value structure, or, how your self-interest manifests itself. Right now he can’t empathize with you, so, how to connect?

*Alternately, this may wait until his kids are ready to move out…I say don’t count on anything.

Hopefully he's not getting involved with the cultier elements in Rand-land.

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Hi Ninth Doctor -

I would believe exactly the same thing as what you've said. However (and I know life takes people down different roads and can be unpredictable, so of course I don't say this as if I have a magical crystal ball to see the future), I strongly doubt he will ever have children. He has never wanted them and is a person with such difficulty connecting emotionally with others that his current relationship, in my opinion, is quite unhealthy. He has adopted the belief that one person cannot hurt another person unless the "victim" allows it by "getting attached", and that, therefore, anyone who "gets attached" is foolish and deserves to be hurt.

The way he speaks to his current girlfriend is appalling. I believe - and this is just my opinion, but based on some facts - that they have a twisted situation going on where they are downright nasty to each other, and then when each of them tolerates the abuse but reacts by appearing "not hurt", they deem each other worthy of respect.

I believe that while he was with our family during his adolescence he tried to allow himself to grow and tried to let himself be part of a family. Ultimately he failed at that, and I think he then hardened himself and determined never to attach again. Of course, he would not acknowledge this as a failure, but rather a discovery that he is above all this emotional connection stuff. His point of view now seems to be that humans who attach to other humans are suckers and he's better than that. And going through life now with no older person to be a mentor of any sort, I doubt he'll voluntarily ever let someone "call him out" on any of his problems.

Naturally I hope I'm wrong. Not only because I think I deserve an apology and someday deserve acknowledgment from him of what I did for him - I'm not gonna lie, I want that - but because I care very much about him, I invested a lot in him, and I hate to see that his life is turning out so unnecessarily sad (which he'll deny - he's perfectly happy).

I'm feeling more and more sure that I'm going to end up telling this whole story here at some point, but right now I just have a lot of questions for the forums here and I don't want to get side-tracked too much.

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Cheri, some of the most moving and revelatory writings on the traps that bedevil the Objectish are personal stories. One of our prime cultists (the nameless Schoolmarm) revealed his early "social retardation" in a series of painful tales. In the tales he touched on his disappointments and exclusions.

It struck me at the time, and upon close re-reading, that Objectivism can damage the vulnerable, those who are the least bit autistic or socially inept.

Far better for one's (false) self-image to believe or state that it is The Other Guy's fault in all conflict situations. This is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that requires -- in extremis -- cult exit counselling. Whether a mind is willingly delivered into membership of The Elect as with the schoolmarm, or one is (as with Scientology, Church Universal and Triumphant, etc) lied to and emotionally-manipulated into adherence -- along with est, Landmark Forum and other totalistic systems, the common denominator, the operating principle, acknowledged or inherent -- is separation from the larger community, from attachment to the Wrong Ideas and the Wrong People.

Using ancient techniques of shame and group pressure, and by exploiting people's emotions, and apparent need for certainty and security, many slip unwittingly into mental bondage to the Ideal. They abandon the Wrong People who have harmed them -- their own mothers and fathers first, and then outward in rippling circles.

Of course, the ancient techniques are part of the human repertoire of behaviour and will never be absent from humanity, but if we can be vigilant we can sometimes help prevent someone going down the rabbithole.

One of the things that you might research is Attachment Theory. This is 96.8% hooey, but with a kernel of truth.

The takehome message is that if a child cannot form an attachment to another human being (usually parent or first caregiver) at an early age, the normal process of human development is stayed or hobbled or retarded. (this of course does not equate to anything pathological -- as with infants who cannot easily form attachments because of profound autism or other developmental disorders, And it does not include those who have received the kind of brain injury that damages regions of the frontal lobes -- what is known as aquired sociopathy, and its related loss of impulse control, moral reasoning and emotional valuation ).

The most horrifying examples of extreme attachment disorders are those that are caused by neglect -- the kind of horror that was discovered in the Romanian orphanages, those pathological incubators of mentally damaged and deformed children.

It is a commonplace and a truism that predators alway seek the vulnerable, but those children who have formed poor attachments are at risk of victimization. An inchoate, pre-conceptual mode or incipient emotion of longing for love (without knowing its name or its expression, only its absence) can lead those children to further damage at the hands of exploiters and predators.

There is one cult group that you should be aware of -- the Stefan Molyneux cult. It operates on the ugly standard lines. Its 'exclusion' terminology is not that of Scientology, but it apes every successful cult from the first religion on -- the Molyneux cult calls it De-fooing. Foo meaning Family Of Origin.

His most awful psychological 'crime' is that he uses the techniques to separate people from reality at the very time of their routine adolescent separation dramas. He preys on those at the cusp of adulthood, using the selfsame emotional storms that accompany separation (from nurturant family to independence) to bind his victims to his personal enterprise.

This is Thought Control, the element that stalks the margins of Objectivism, the impulse to control the beliefs and behaviour of those under the same epistemic roof. You see the repeat eruption of this again and again and again in the 'movement'** -- it is remarked upon in the current continuing thread about Dr Mrs Dr Hsieh, who is building her own cult and having troubles with the mechanics of Thought Control. It is the hallmark of the degeneracy of Peikoff, chief cultist, and represented also by the inept toads of the new anti-Hsieh Puritans.

It seems your son was unable to form a strong, enduring attachment -- for whatever reason -- and so was extremely vulnerable to The Ideal, a set of principles that could explain his pain and feelings of exclusion. It is not him, not circumstances beyond control, not particular damaging things that were done to him actively or via neglect. It is The Fools and the schmucks whom he separates from ...

I guess he is managing his move into adulthood with what tools he thinks he has, his own mind and passion, and without guidance. You sense a tragedy ... as any mother would, because you love him and will always love him ...

Bless you for your heart and your seeking mind. You have certainly found a haven for independent thinking here.

__________

** it would be tragic if it were not so funny. The new Cult of Extreme Cultitude at Checking Premises is populated almost entirely by non-achievers, ciphers, cranks and non-entities, whose only claim to glory is that they follow the One True and Narrow Path. Of course, from my point of view, that path leads to a bunker with no escape and no happiness, just delusions of being Elite. I will not name anyone in particular, but a close look at those pathetic losers is quite instructive.

Lonely, loveless, single, stupid and righteous, hoping to attach to a surging Vanguard, and finding themselves ultimately bereft of humanity or sense of proportion. The sad and hilarious spawn of a deformed Objectivism.

Edited by william.scherk
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Yes, I have read about Attachment Theory and Reactive Attachment Disorder. This stuff may very well be in play here.

Since so many here have insights on this matter (which I don't mind at all, but rather welcome them) I will go ahead and tell the whole story about my foster son, my relationship with him and what happened that made it all go so wrong. Honestly, when I first came here I only brought the matter up as a context for what prompted me to start looking more deeply into my questions about Objectivism. I hadn't intended to really get into the story all that much. But I can see now that, as an added benefit of having found this site, there are a lot of you here who are wise, older than me (and therefore having more life experience), and also - since you are knowledgeable about Objectivism - in a much better position to understand the things he says to me than are other people I encounter in life.

To tell the truth, as I've struggled through the difficulties of my broken relationship with him over the past year, I have had no one to talk to about any of it. So, many things he's said to me I've had to ponder and try to make sense of on my own with no other person off of whom to bounce my thoughts. It's been particularly difficult because unless someone understands Objectivism they will not understand the things he's said to me in conversations, and thus relaying those conversations to anyone for discussion purposes has been pointless. I end up arguing with him in my own head when I'm trying to fall asleep.

I didn't come here looking for help in sorting out the wreckage of a relationship, but interestingly enough I may have found the only place where I could get any help sorting it out. So, if you are all interested, I will tell you about it and you can tell me what you think. If you don't mind?

I'd have to do it tomorrow, though. It's a long story. :-/

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I'd have to do it tomorrow, though. It's a long story. :-/

Cheri, you might consider placing your story in your own personal Blog here at OL. Blog entries can only be read by members, which -- if you have the least privacy concerns, would let us all read and comment, but keep the details of your personal life one step beyond internet search engines ...

Contact me backstage if you need a walk-through the mechanics; our MSK is always willing to provide.

Edited by william.scherk
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Well, I'm happy to post it wherever is most appropriate in the context of the way this site works (obviously I'm not entirely familiar with it all yet). I don't really have any privacy concerns, though. Anyone who knows our family already knows the whole story, and anyone who doesn't know us would likely be disinterested. Aside from that stuff, is the personal blog section the best place for me to put it? If so, then yeah... I'll probably need some help. Let me know if that's the way I should go, and if so I'll contact you "back stage". Oh, and thanks for offering! ;)

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He has adopted the belief that one person cannot hurt another person unless the "victim" allows it by "getting attached", and that, therefore, anyone who "gets attached" is foolish and deserves to be hurt.

He sounds like a character in a Bret Easton Ellis novel, not an Ayn Rand one.

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A Bret Easton Ellis novel... Yes, I can see that, actually. No, I don't believe he's consistent with a Rand novel character, but I believe he's engaged in a lot of self-deception, so it's hard to imagine how he sees himself.

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Cheri, I think you are a jewel of the desert. First the Coyotes make it into the playoffs, and now you appear on OL! Who woulda thunk it?

I'd like to address a couple of your questions, as a non Objectivist who has observed them.

Do parents love their children unconditionally? When Objectivists have children they become parents, and rationalize the hell out of their previous parental theories, in order to reconcile their instinctive feelings with their strongest held beliefs. Just like regular parents.

Do old Objectivists die, fade away or go out in a blaze of glory? They tend to harden and sometimes go to extremes in their political beliefs and private worldviews. But their social behaviour, if they are connected to society by the usual bonds of family and friendship, is the same as everyone else's. They're usually not dangerous to themselves or others.

It's good to have you here and I hope you can find time to visit often.

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Thank you, daunce lynam. I appreciate your kind words and your observations with regard to the questions I'd asked. I am trying to make the time to visit here often, in the context of also trying to make the time to engage in some necessary reading in order to avoid accidentally spouting off about some topic before I know much about it. Ha ha... ;)

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On a side note, I'd said that I would tell the whole story about my foster son since this seemed a good place to discuss some of the issues I'm working through regarding him. I haven't changed my mind, but I have decided to take a little time about it. First of all, it's kind of a long story and I don't want to leave out anything relevant. But more importantly I've given it some thought and realized that it might not be wise to open up conversation about such a personal part of my life before getting to better know some of the characters around here. It's not a matter of privacy concerns, just that it occurred to me that I don't really know the people here that well yet, and to discuss personal things at length may open me up to negative reactions that I may not be quite prepared for. To be honest - and I do tend to be open and honest to a fault, which is one of my concerns - this drama is still a bit fresh for me, and if I found myself feeling defensive, even against a stranger, it might bring me down at a time when I'm already trying to recover.

So, I will do it, but it make take me a while to post.

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On a side note, I'd said that I would tell the whole story about my foster son since this seemed a good place to discuss some of the issues I'm working through regarding him. I haven't changed my mind, but I have decided to take a little time about it. First of all, it's kind of a long story and I don't want to leave out anything relevant. But more importantly I've given it some thought and realized that it might not be wise to open up conversation about such a personal part of my life before getting to better know some of the characters around here. It's not a matter of privacy concerns, just that it occurred to me that I don't really know the people here that well yet, and to discuss personal things at length may open me up to negative reactions that I may not be quite prepared for. To be honest - and I do tend to be open and honest to a fault, which is one of my concerns - this drama is still a bit fresh for me, and if I found myself feeling defensive, even against a stranger, it might bring me down at a time when I'm already trying to recover.

So, I will do it, but it make take me a while to post.

Could Objectivism be an excuse to sweep his foster family out of his life instead of dealing with the costs of a continuing relationship and acknowledging a debt to you for what you did for him? Consider what he was before you took him into his life. Maybe he's simply getting back on his previous life course with different clothes. He used to have victims. Now you and your daughter are victims, sort of, from what you've told us. There will be victims to come if my speculation is right. Maybe he's simply throwing you off his train as a thank you but I don't want to hurt you by being me but I'm going to be me. Or, maybe there's self hatred and he doesn't want to feel that but being around you brings that out. Or, maybe he's going to be all right, but he needs to be all right without you--that is, he needs space. However, the rational thing to do is not to figure him out, but let him leave the nest and have his own life and in that context, over time, he might find his way back to your home as opposed to another home, which I suspect will not be the Ayn Rand Institute. Then he will tell you the real truth, which is unlikely to be what I've written here. Your real job is not to be anyone's victim, because if it's your choice to be a victim it's not his fault. (Are you using him as a buffer for what you really need to talk about, but maybe not here? Think of his relationship to you as a kind of marriage on the rocks and go see a marriage counselor. It's all the same sort of thing to talk about and talking is what they do.)

--Brant

I don't usually do this sort of analysis thing

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Hi Brant -

Everything you've just said has crossed my mind. Of course there's a lot more to know, but much of your observation is very astute.

As far as being a "victim", I tend to cringe at that term because I don't always know what someone means by it. I don't think of myself as a "victim" in the long-term sense, as if I can't recover control of my own self and my own life. However, I have always believed that it's appropriate and healthy to acknowledge and willing feel my feelings, thus to work through them even if it takes time. I feel that avoidance is not strength, in other words. That being said, my feelings have been hurt, my finances have been hurt, my home has been left in a shambles which I have to repair, etc. In light of all that, I have been a victim of his behavior, but only until I clean it all up. If that makes sense?

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Hi Brant -

Everything you've just said has crossed my mind. Of course there's a lot more to know, but much of your observation is very astute.

As far as being a "victim", I tend to cringe at that term because I don't always know what someone means by it. I don't think of myself as a "victim" in the long-term sense, as if I can't recover control of my own self and my own life. However, I have always believed that it's appropriate and healthy to acknowledge and willing feel my feelings, thus to work through them even if it takes time. I feel that avoidance is not strength, in other words. That being said, my feelings have been hurt, my finances have been hurt, my home has been left in a shambles which I have to repair, etc. In light of all that, I have been a victim of his behavior, but only until I clean it all up. If that makes sense?

Holy cow! Maybe we should get together and compare notes!

--Brant

I guess this is some of what you were going to get into later

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  • 1 year later...

The new Cult of Extreme Cultitude at Checking Premises is populated almost entirely by non-achievers, ciphers, cranks and non-entities, whose only claim to glory is that they follow the One True and Narrow Path. Of course, from my point of view, that path leads to a bunker with no escape and no happiness, just delusions of being Elite. I will not name anyone in particular, but a close look at those pathetic losers is quite instructive.

Lonely, loveless, single, stupid and righteous, hoping to attach to a surging Vanguard, and finding themselves ultimately bereft of humanity or sense of proportion. The sad and hilarious spawn of a deformed Objectivism.

OL irregular Neil Parille notes that the Checking Premises website is 404, not available, verklempt, kaput, finito.

It could be simply a 'forgot to pay the server bill' situation. Or, er, something else.

Meanwhile, Dr Mrs Doctor Hsieh's Philosophy Inaction blog moves from success to success.

Edited by william.scherk
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OL irregular Neil Parille notes that the Checking Premises website is 404, not available, verklempt, kaput, finito.

It could be simply a 'forgot to pay the server bill' situation. Or, er, something else.

Technical difficulties saith the perpetrators:

https://www.facebook.com/checkingpremises?fref=ts

Something else like what, shame?

If your jonesing for it enough, there's still the Wayback machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/20121015084355/http://checkingpremises.org/

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  • 2 weeks later...

OL irregular Neil Parille notes that the Checking Premises website is 404, not available, verklempt, kaput, finito.

It could be simply a 'forgot to pay the server bill' situation. Or, er, something else.

Technical difficulties saith the perpetrators:

https://www.facebook.com/checkingpremises?fref=ts

Something else like what, shame?

Checking Premises Org is still 404 ... since May.

I think the verklemptitude of the Modern Objectivist Shunning site is due to simple feebleness.

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