Some really worthless garbage


Robert Baratheon

Recommended Posts

For what it's worth, I'm glad you're back, Robert. :smile:

We're like pebbles in a tumbler... and we get polished by getting our rough edges knocked off on each other. :wink:

Greg

Oh great, so I get no love?

I'm sorry, Bey. I didn't even know you were gone.

I get it -- RB is a Jew.

He Is? I didn't know that either.

(dumber than I look...)

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 135
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Unfortunately it leads me to being marginalized on this board. *single tear rolls down cheek*.

I think Greg understands this very well.

I do understand... and yet don't feel the least bit bad about it because I already knew up front that most of my view is off the map here. Yet we do share the communion of Conservative American Capitalism, and that counts for a lot. :smile:

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately it leads me to being marginalized on this board. *single tear rolls down cheek*.

I think Greg understands this very well.

I do understand... and yet don't feel the least bit bad about it because I already knew up front that most of my view is off the map here. Yet we do share the communion of Conservative American Capitalism, and that counts for a lot. :smile:

Greg

You misunderstand me. I was referring to your experience with the Casteneda crew. If consciousness is primary, if the Self is the seat All That Is, if the Witness is the Core of Who We Are...then the language we extrude into the collective unconsciousness determines ALL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately it leads me to being marginalized on this board. *single tear rolls down cheek*.

I think Greg understands this very well.

I do understand... and yet don't feel the least bit bad about it because I already knew up front that most of my view is off the map here. Yet we do share the communion of Conservative American Capitalism, and that counts for a lot. :smile:

Greg

You misunderstand me. I was referring to your experience with the Casteneda crew.

Oh... I inferred the adjacent comments about being marginalized and about my understanding as being connected to each other.

If consciousness is primary, if the Self is the seat All That Is,

In my view the Self may in time have the opportunity to be able to observe All That Is... but it can never be All That Is.

if the Witness is the Core of Who We Are

Yes, it is... but it is only able to see by virtue of the light of Something Else.

...then the language we extrude into the collective unconsciousness determines ALL.

I see that differently. In my view, language is just wordy descriptions of what is... and, in itself, is not and can never be what it can only describe.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If consciousness is primary, if the Self is the seat All That Is,

In my view the Self may in time have the opportunity to be able to observe All That Is... but it can never be All That Is.

Of course not -- an individual (an ego) is a a mere diffraction of the Original Absolute Inertial Frame. Think of a prism diffracting white light into its component spectra. You consider this Absolute Inertial Frame to be Jeebus. Craig Weinberg and assorted Panpsychics hew closer to the Eastern Tradition in considering this Absolute Inertial Frame as Pure Consciousness... you say "Tomato"...

Nevertheless, each individual's (limited) capacity for Awareness is the exact same Awareness shared by The Big Guy. This is what I mean by "the Self is the seat of All That Is". It is a co-creation. Big Mind and Little Mind.

if the Witness is the Core of Who We Are

Yes, it is... but it is only able to see by virtue of the light of Something Else.

The Primordial Sense. The original consciousness whose sensory-motor interaction with the World brought Space and Time into being. Existence requires Observation.

Forget about notions of The Big Bang, of Something arising from Nothing. You and I know that is nonsense.

I think Weinberg and the panpsychics are onto something with their notion of a "Big Diffraction".

Consider:

http://multisenserealism.com/thesis/7-space-time/big-diffraction-sole-entropy-well-model/

...then the language we extrude into the collective unconsciousness determines ALL.

I see that differently. In my view, language is just wordy descriptions of what is... and, in itself, is not and can never be what it can only describe.

Yes, "the map is not the territory", "the menu is not the meal"

That is true if we are talking about "pure awareness" or "things in themselves" (whatever that may mean). But as individual egos in a material universe, all we have is language to bridge the gap between our little individual worlds. In THAT world, language is PARAMOUNT. Don't fall to sleep, don't fall back into the primordial soup -- it has no practical import, even if God does love the attention (that narcissist). Focus on the here and now and the co-evolution that is occuring among all these consciousnesses(?) and minds.

Welp. I'm wiped out at this point. This is probably all gobbledygook. I wonder if we can derive some practical actions from all this nonsense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This is also why members here are free to rail against the very real and powerful government without a peep from its agents and enforcers. They pose no actual threat to its operations. The moment they became a real force to be reckoned with, they would be bought, harassed, or discredited.

 

Reader,

 

Just look at that. will ya'?

 

Obviously, before such a dire state of affairs, the best thing to do is sell out.

 

What can you do? What can anyone do? It's not our fault!!!!! :smile:

 

I mean, morality is for fools. So it's OK to be corrupt inside.

 

Here's the way to do it right: obey, suck up to authority, and get yours.

 

Right on, bro...

 

(If only there weren't that damn mirror.)

 

:smile:

 

Michael

 

 

Michael,

 

I've never advocated selling out to the system. Nor have I advocated abandoning one's libertarian values. You really don't get it.

 

You're wholly invested in the here and now - the "short con" - which is why your posts focus on this blunder or that gaffe that you're always sure will spell Obama's imminent downfall. To listen to you tell it, small-government advocates are winning battle after battle. Yet government only gets bigger, stronger, and here in Washington, the plain reality is that Progressives are winning the war.

 

I'm playing a much longer game, and it can't be won through gotcha videos of broken campaign promises. Defeat candidate Obama and there are only 10 more behind him, exactly like him, ready to take his place at a moment's notice.

 

If my message were truly "selling out" and "getting yours," then I would be lauding Kacy instead of lambasting him. My objection to Kacy is he has been successfully assimilated into The System and now transmits its very values - a fact you have publicly recognized here. Kacy wholeheartedly feels he is out saving the world right now, and will explain exactly how he deserves every cent of his government pension, salary, and benefits. In other words, he is One with the Borg and now serves as its agent:

 

 

I'm suggesting something more along the lines of gradual infiltration - a libertarian invasion of the bodysnatchers if you will. Play their game, win their trust, fill their ranks, but retain your own values. Undermine them at every turn and spread your own influence within their organizations, until they realize too late the transformation that has taken place:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RB,

Nice game.

You get to pretend to be virtuous to yourself while preaching to others it's a fools game to practice virtue.

Francisco D'Anconia is the new World of Warcraft role playing game.

And meanwhile you also get yours, right?

Heh.

Nice how that works out.

Mirror, mirror on the wall,

Who's the suckup of them all?

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the reader.

Think about this.

It must be awful going to bed knowing you sold your soul to the highest bidder you could find. And serving that master is what you can look forward to in the morning.

What a horrible way to live.

Michael

I'll sell out for a quarter of a million dollars*.

--Brant

*I can't keep this offer open for long (download the list of exclusions)

accepts PayPal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RB,

Nice game.

You get to pretend to be virtuous to yourself while preaching to others it's a fools game to practice virtue.

Francisco D'Anconia is the new World of Warcraft role playing game.

And meanwhile you also get yours, right?

Heh.

Nice how that works out.

Mirror, mirror on the wall,

Who's the suckup of them all?

Michael

Michael,

Sneer all you want from your position of holier-than-thou sanctimony, but I have done something tangible for the cause of limited government. Not only that, I'm just getting started. What have you done to stem the tide except bluster about "propaganda" on your corner of the internet?

Every day, I make decisions and influence others' decisions that affect businesses and individuals across the United States. I do it from a libertarian values perspective. Often I have to compromise with the progressives around me, but always I am having a net positive impact on the direction in which government moves. The more I advance in the organization, the more of an impact I will have in protecting people from state overreach. Someday, maybe there will be enough of "us" to turn the whole thing around.

You would prefer I resign to maintain some idealistic vision of Randian purity? They'll replace me tomorrow with an Elizabeth Warren clone, fresh out of social justice clinic at NYU Law. Would you rather she be making the calls or I? Neither is NOT a choice before you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RB,

How's your government-padded bank account doing while you're playing Francisco to save the world?

Nice and comfy, huh?

Michael

Michael,

You didn't answer my question because that's the way you are. I'll answer yours because that's the way I am:

Robert Baratheon deposed the Mad King. I know myself - I'm the less bad alternative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad this discussion unfolded because I was able to clarify something to myself.

Why is RB's preaching so obnoxious to me and Greg's doesn't bother me, except at times when it's a minor irritation at worst (but mostly like mustard on ice cream :smile: )?

I think it's the sacred mission.

Gregg is on a mission to express himself to people I believe he respects and test his thinking. I think he is here intellectually to challenge his own premises and hone his ideas (notwithstanding a huge backlog of dogmatic-style communication, but look where he came from--Castenda is far out, dude :smile: ).

RB says he's on a sacred mission to save the world in the name of libertarian ideals by stealth and penetration, but when I look at what he does online, I see a person doggedly going after others to call them hypocrites while he serves up a constant plate of justifications about his own toadying up to the government, abandoning morality, etc. It's nonstop and neurotic.

That's a tell to me that he's preaching bullshit and attacking others to bring them down to his level so he can feel better about his poor choices in life. That's the real mission. The rest is garbage.

So I give it right back to him in the same manner he does to others.

RB can preach his bullshit on OL since I am flexible (so long as he stays within the posting guidelines), but I for one am going to make sure his bullshit, including his preaching of it, is called by it's right name if he wants to do it to the OL audience.

Drip drip drip, just like he does...

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sneer all you want from your position of holier-than-thou sanctimony, but I have done something tangible for the cause of limited government. Not only that, I'm just getting started.

RB,

How's your government-padded bank account doing while you're playing Francisco to save the world?

Nice and comfy, huh?

Michael

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RB,

Nice game.

You get to pretend to be virtuous to yourself while preaching to others it's a fools game to practice virtue.

Francisco D'Anconia is the new World of Warcraft role playing game.

And meanwhile you also get yours, right?

Heh.

Nice how that works out.

Mirror, mirror on the wall,

Who's the suckup of them all?

Michael,

Sneer all you want from your position of holier-than-thou sanctimony, but I have done something tangible for the cause of limited government. Not only that, I'm just getting started. What have you done to stem the tide except bluster about "propaganda" on your corner of the internet?

Every day, I make decisions and influence others' decisions that affect businesses and individuals across the United States. I do it from a libertarian values perspective. Often I have to compromise with the progressives around me, but always I am having a net positive impact on the direction in which government moves. The more I advance in the organization, the more of an impact I will have in protecting people from state overreach. Someday, maybe there will be enough of "us" to turn the whole thing around.

You would prefer I resign to maintain some idealistic vision of Randian purity? They'll replace me tomorrow with an Elizabeth Warren clone, fresh out of social justice clinic at NYU Law. Would you rather she be making the calls or I? Neither is NOT a choice before you.

Who asked you to do God's work?

--Brant

He works from the inside out, we from the outside in

"God" is the natural progression of things, man acts on things

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad this discussion unfolded because I was able to clarify something to myself.

Why is RB's preaching so obnoxious to me and Greg's doesn't bother me, except at times when it's a minor irritation at worst (but mostly like mustard on ice cream :smile: )?

I think it's the sacred mission.

Gregg is on a mission to express himself to people I believe he respects and test his thinking. I think he is here intellectually to challenge his own premises and hone his ideas (notwithstanding a huge backlog of dogmatic-style communication, but look where he came from--Castenda is far out, dude :smile: ).

RB says he's on a sacred mission to save the world in the name of libertarian ideals by stealth and penetration, but when I look at what he does online, I see a person doggedly going after others to call them hypocrites while he serves up a constant plate of justifications about his own toadying up to the government, abandoning morality, etc. It's nonstop and neurotic.

That's a tell to me that he's preaching bullshit and attacking others to bring them down to his level so he can feel better about his poor choices in life. That's the real mission. The rest is garbage.

So I give it right back to him in the same manner he does to others.

RB can preach his bullshit on OL since I am flexible (so long as he stays within the posting guidelines), but I for one am going to make sure his bullshit, including his preaching of it, is called by it's right name if he wants to do it to the OL audience.

Drip drip drip, just like he does...

Michael

Greg is a fundamentalist and describes himself as such. If you understand what fundamentalism is, then you know he isn't checking any premises. You tolerate - nay, you applaud - his knock-off guru bullshit because it vaguely fits within the Randian framework you work so hard to maintain here.

It's interesting that you started from the emotional standpoint of feeling my "preaching" was "obnoxious" and reacted extremely hostilely toward me on that basis alone, only later arriving at the cognitive conclusions (justifications) you describe above. By interesting, I mean it's hypocritical because one of your favorite sermons on OL is that we should all train ourselves to think in the opposite direction - cognitive first, then emotional.

From Kyle's thread on manipulation techniques:

-------------------

"MSK: When we talk about manipulation or covert persuasion, we are talking about bypassing the slow thinking part (conscious awareness, which is logical) and communicating directly with the fast thinking part (the subconscious, which is emotional, HUGE and biased) until we get the state and behavior we wish in the persuaded person. Once that is achieved, we follow-up with rationales and reason-based arguments (no matter how convoluted or reasonable they may be) for the slow-thinking part to not undo the persuasion.

As I became aware of this bypass process, I started telling people to use the cognitive before normative approach when dealing with new information or complicated subjects. In simple terms, in marketing, they say sell with emotion and justify with logic. That's how it's done and it works like a charm. To combat this when you believe you should, I say first observe and identify with logic (the colder the better), then after you are reasonably sure you know what the thing is, allow the emotions to run. You can't do this with everything, but it does keep you safe and unmanipulatable when you do. But doing this is not automatic."

-------------------

Take your own advice, preacher. Check your premises, and know thyself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Greg,

I don't know if he's a lawyer. He said several times he works for the government.

During earlier times he has put on quite a show. We have a poster who leans left named Kacy. I think they were childhood friends or something. Kacy went into the armed services and this dude stalks him all the time to call him a hypocrite for working for the government. Oh... there's the blah blah blah he serves up, but it's basically one government person calling another government person a hypocrite for working for the government.

(For the record, I realize people have to work for the government for it to run and I will not look down on anyone for working at a job, government or otherwise, but am more favorably inclined toward the military than bureaucrats. My real problem is I just can't stand the posturing when it's all bullshit.)

When those two start going at it, you want to tell them to get a room.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Yes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Yes.

Thanks, Adam.

That explains his values.

Greg

You are welcome.

However, again, your broad brush generalizations are just flat out fallacies.

Basic syllogistic forms...

All lawyers have the same values...

That is just not factual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Greg,

I don't know if he's a lawyer. He said several times he works for the government.

During earlier times he has put on quite a show. We have a poster who leans left named Kacy. I think they were childhood friends or something. Kacy went into the armed services and this dude stalks him all the time to call him a hypocrite for working for the government. Oh... there's the blah blah blah he serves up, but it's basically one government person calling another government person a hypocrite for working for the government.

(For the record, I realize people have to work for the government for it to run and I will not look down on anyone for working at a job, government or otherwise, but am more favorably inclined toward the military than bureaucrats. My real problem is I just can't stand the posturing when it's all bullshit.)

When those two start going at it, you want to tell them to get a room.

Michael

Thanks for bringing me up to speed, Michael. I actually think that showdowns like that are good, because they act as catalysts for participation and discussion within reasonable boundaries... and I have to admit that they can be quite entertaining, too. :wink:

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, is Robert a lawyer who works for the government?

Yes.

Thanks, Adam.

That explains his values.

Greg

You are welcome.

However, again, your broad brush generalizations are just flat out fallacies.

Basic syllogistic forms...

All lawyers have the same values...

That is just not factual.

I said that explains his values... not every lawyer's values.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the reader.

Think about this.

It must be awful going to bed knowing you sold your soul to the highest bidder you could find. And serving that master is what you can look forward to in the morning.

What a horrible way to live.

Michael

I'll sell out for a quarter of a million dollars*.

--Brant

*I can't keep this offer open for long (download the list of exclusions)

accepts PayPal

You can always sell out to yourself by working to earn it. Then you own yourself. That's what liberty is all about. The freedom to buy your freedom. :smile:

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Adam.

That explains his values.

Greg

You are welcome.

However, again, your broad brush generalizations are just flat out fallacies.

Basic syllogistic forms...

All lawyers have the same values...

That is just not factual.

I said that explains his values... not every lawyer's values.

Greg

How are we to understand that by what you posted?

A) he is a lawyer;

B) that explains his values;

C) not because he is Robert, but because of his occupation????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Adam.

That explains his values.

Greg

You are welcome.

However, again, your broad brush generalizations are just flat out fallacies.

Basic syllogistic forms...

All lawyers have the same values...

That is just not factual.

I said that explains his values... not every lawyer's values.

Greg

How are we to understand that by what you posted?

A) he is a lawyer;

B) that explains his values;

C) not because he is Robert, but because of his occupation????

Robert has already fully expressed his values here in his own words.

There is no doubt as to what values he lives by. Knowing that he's a government lawyer only helps to explain why. We each choose careers which are direct personal expressions of our selves.

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now