Avatar's Savage Message

[Selene]

Is that why U.S. military has aided the Soviets during WW2?

Yeah, but dat one was different because...well because...we want it to be different...see!

Adam

You mean, for the right price, everyone's a whore?

Red: You do realize that I am being satirical ...yes

[Tony]

You mean, for the right price, everyone's a whore?

Red: You do realize that I am being satirical ...yes

Of course, I do. I just wanted to see if you have the fortitude unlike some others. You do. Now you know why I got banned in so many political forums.

[Selene]

You mean, for the right price, everyone's a whore?

Red: You do realize that I am being satirical ...yes

Of course, I do. I just wanted to see if you have the fortitude unlike some others. You do. Now you know why I got banned in so many political forums.

Their loss.

I was just checking because there have been a few folks who sometimes really do not get it.

[bmacwilliam]

I think the fundamental problem with Avatar is the immoral (because it's a lie) foundation of the "noble savage" picture he was painting.

The spiritual dimension of the movie involved a neural network connection of the planet that Sigourney was finding out was real, and not imagined. Also, their "tree of souls" actually did have souls in it and had serious demonstrable power like healing and reincarnation etc.

You can't make an honest parallel to any real situation because the religion/spriritual dimension of real situations is at best just a bunch of lies, but more often is a very brutal instrument of control praying directly upon the weaknesses, fears, and guilt (often undeserved) of the people it's pretending to "help".

I mean seriously, how different would things be if religion was actually true? But that movie simply doesn't work if what the beautiful blue creatures believe is just a bunch of crap.

Bob

[tjohnson]

I don't know why people talk about "messages" in movies, songs, etc. I just watch or listen to enjoy them (or not). Of course I'm assuming it was made for entertainment purposes and not for some propaganda purpose. Judging by the box office results of Avatar I'd say it was pretty damn entertaining!

[bmacwilliam]

I don't know why people talk about "messages" in movies, songs, etc. I just watch or listen to enjoy them (or not). Of course I'm assuming it was made for entertainment purposes and not for some propaganda purpose. Judging by the box office results of Avatar I'd say it was pretty damn entertaining!

I agree it was entertaining and I enjoyed seeing it very much.

The only problem is if someone connects with it on an emotional level and uses it as support of a flawed worldview because it makes pefect rational sense based on acceptance of premises that are underhandedly guised as plausible but are actually completely untrue and dishonest.

Wait, was I supposed to be talking about Avatar??

[tjohnson]

The only problem is if someone connects with it on an emotional level and uses it as support of a flawed worldview because it makes pefect rational sense based on acceptance of premises that are underhandedly guised as plausible but are actually completely untrue and dishonest.

Wow, you said a mouthful there1

[rolandpericles]

. . . the religion/spriritual dimension of real situations is at best just a bunch of lies, but more often is a very brutal instrument of control praying directly upon the weaknesses, fears, and guilt (often undeserved) of the people it's pretending to "help".

Eye could knot agree Moore. Joust the other day, eye said two Hortense, "Hortense, eye halve bin preying four reign, butt the sky is as sunny as ever." She said, "Roland, why don't ewe joust shut up?"

Distractedly,

Roland Pericles

[jriggenbach]

I don't know why people talk about "enjoying" movies, songs, etc., as though they were some kind of "entertainment." I just watch or listen to identify the messages that are tucked inside.

JR

[sbeaulieu]

The spiritual dimension of the movie involved a neural network connection of the planet that Sigourney was finding out was real, and not imagined. Also, their "tree of souls" actually did have souls in it and had serious demonstrable power like healing and reincarnation etc.

You can't make an honest parallel to any real situation because the religion/spriritual dimension of real situations is at best just a bunch of lies, but more often is a very brutal instrument of control praying directly upon the weaknesses, fears, and guilt (often undeserved) of the people it's pretending to "help".

Bob,

You hit the nail on the head with your summary. In the movie, this is factual and there are no parallels in our world. What's so intriguing is that all lifeforms on Pandora co-exist because of their biological makeup (through tendril connectivity). This makes the story work because it's plausible. It's from a purely scientific standpoint, with the Na'vi making a spiritual association with it, thus influencing their culture.

~ Shane

Edited March 3, 2010 by sbeaulieu

[tjohnson]

I don't know why people talk about "enjoying" movies, songs, etc., as though they were some kind of "entertainment." I just watch or listen to identify the messages that are tucked inside.

JR

LOL, good one! Perhaps it's because they are produced by the Entertainment Industry and not by the Ministry of Hidden Messages.

[bmacwilliam]

Bob,

You hit the nail on the head with your summary. In the movie, this is factual and there are no parallels in our world. What's so intriguing is that all lifeforms on Pandora co-exist because of their biological makeup (through tendril connectivity). This makes the story work because it's plausible. It's from a purely scientific standpoint, with the Na'vi making a spiritual association with it, thus influencing their culture.

~ Shane

A refreshing exception to this, for all his "screwyness", was Mel Gibson's Apocalypto. Instead of the Evil European Conquerers unleashing their horrific exploitive wrath on the peace-loving, tree-hugging noble savages, the savages were much more savage than noble, happily chopping each other's heads off and killing innocent people by the bucketload and would have happily separated every Spanish head from every Spanish shoulder if they had the opportunity. I suspect Mel's vision was closer to the truth.

Bob

[sbeaulieu]

A refreshing exception to this, for all his "screwyness", was Mel Gibson's Apocalypto. Instead of the Evil European Conquerers unleashing their horrific exploitive wrath on the peace-loving, tree-hugging noble savages, the savages were much more savage than noble, happily chopping each other's heads off and killing innocent people by the bucketload and would have happily separated every Spanish head from every Spanish shoulder if they had the opportunity. I suspect Mel's vision was closer to the truth.

Bob

Agreed. That was a very visceral flick! Their motives were clearly defined...apeasing the gods with fountains of blood and baskets of hearts.

~ Shane

Edited March 3, 2010 by sbeaulieu

[Selene]

A refreshing exception to this, for all his "screwyness", was Mel Gibson's Apocalypto. Instead of the Evil European Conquerers unleashing their horrific exploitive wrath on the peace-loving, tree-hugging noble savages, the savages were much more savage than noble, happily chopping each other's heads off and killing innocent people by the bucketload and would have happily separated every Spanish head from every Spanish shoulder if they had the opportunity. I suspect Mel's vision was closer to the truth.

Bob

Agreed. That was a very visceral flick! Their motives were clearly defined...apeasing the gods with fountains of blood and baskets of hearts.

~ Shane

Movie was brilliant.

So was Passion of the Christ. The man is a phenomenal actor and director.

Adam

[sbeaulieu]

Two movies moved me unexpectedly (now that you bring up Passion)...

Flogging scene of Passion - I was not expecting that level of brutality and was brought to tears. Jesus suffered...that much was true through the eyes of Mel Gibson. Right or wrong, misguided or not.

Amphibious landing in Saving Private Ryan - If you've seen it, no explanation needed.

~ Shane

[Selene]

Two movies moved me unexpectedly (now that you bring up Passion)...

Flogging scene of Passion - I was not expecting that level of brutality and was brought to tears. Jesus suffered...that much was true through the eyes of Mel Gibson. Right or wrong, misguided or not.

Amphibious landing in Saving Private Ryan - If you've seen it, no explanation needed.

~ Shane

Shane:

Perfectly correct on both counts. The scourging of Christ, which I was "prepared" for because 1) I had read explanations of it; and 2) some folks told me it was a really "tough scene." The folks who told me that were two combat veterans and an ER doctor.

Even then, it was one of the most intense movie scenes that I had ever seen. I saw it with my lady and a very good friend and client who is a serious Catholic. He goes to church every day. Moreover, you can have serious, intense and intelligent arguments with him as well.

The three of us sat, silently for thirty minutes. Our friend managed the theatre so we did not get bothered. Also, was the last show. My thoughts for that silent half hour were as intense as any to a movie scene.

Pvt. Ryan, brilliant, brilliant opening. The best I have ever seen. Hamburger Hill also comes close. We were Soldiers Once and Young, starring Mel Gibson was also brilliant.

http://www.americanr...ingaddress.html

Adam

[Tony]

I think the fundamental problem with Avatar is the immoral (because it's a lie) foundation of the "noble savage" picture he was painting.

Bob

Are you implying all lies are immoral?

[anonrobt]

I think the fundamental problem with Avatar is the immoral (because it's a lie) foundation of the "noble savage" picture he was painting.

Bob

Are you implying all lies are immoral?

In that lies seek to fake reality - of course all lies are immoral...

[Selene]

I think the fundamental problem with Avatar is the immoral (because it's a lie) foundation of the "noble savage" picture he was painting.

Bob

Are you implying all lies are immoral?

In that lies seek to fake reality - of course all lies are immoral...

A classic conundrum is the following:

A person you love is dying, and you know that it is imminent, therefore is it immoral to lie to them when they ask you...am I dying?

Adam

[Tony]

I think the fundamental problem with Avatar is the immoral (because it's a lie) foundation of the "noble savage" picture he was painting.

Bob

Are you implying all lies are immoral?

In that lies seek to fake reality - of course all lies are immoral...

So it would have been immoral to lie to the Nazis during the Holocaust that one's Jewish friends are Gentiles according to your moral standard?

Edited March 9, 2010 by Red Grant

[Tony]

A classic conundrum is the following:

A person you love is dying, and you know that it is imminent, therefore is it immoral to lie to them when they ask you...am I dying?

Adam

Well, it depends on particular situation of the loved one and his/her values/life-long objectives/goals (as one sees it) at the time one thinks one is confronted with such scenario.)

and

the moral standard one has set for oneself.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Red Grant

[Selene]

A classic conundrum is the following:

A person you love is dying, and you know that it is imminent, therefore is it immoral to lie to them when they ask you...am I dying?

Adam

Well, it depends on particular situation of the loved one and his/her values/life-long objectives/goals (as one sees it) at the time one thinks one is confronted with such scenario.)

and

the moral standard one has set for oneself.

Precisely, therefore, are you stating that it is not always immoral to lie?

Adam

[Tony]

A classic conundrum is the following:

A person you love is dying, and you know that it is imminent, therefore is it immoral to lie to them when they ask you...am I dying?

Adam

Well, it depends on particular situation of the loved one and his/her values/life-long objectives/goals (as one sees it) at the time one thinks one is confronted with such scenario.)

and

the moral standard one has set for oneself.

Precisely, therefore, are you stating that it is not always immoral to lie?

Adam

By my moral standard? Of course, it's not.

[Selene]

Good.

I thought we agreed. Now I'm waiting for anonrobt.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I haven't see Avatar yet, but something is bothering me about this debate.

From the reports and trailers I have seen, isn't Avatar some kind of modern-day fairy tale?

For instance, using the rationale that the movie's story is veiled propaganda, couldn't Cinderella be an allegory for the suffering of the proletariat and the corruption of the ruling class?

Or The Emperor's New Clothes or Hansel and Gretel be a tale advocating children's rights, using as premise that children are wiser, and see more clearly, than adults?

Or Little Red Riding Hood be a blast against pedophilia and a need for strict sex-offender laws?

I could go on and on.

There is a child in all of us who sees the wonder of life. All life--from bugs and worms on up to full-fledged farms and cities. Since adults constantly tell kids they can't do this and can't do that, it is easy for a child to see adults as evil part of the time. I think fairy tales speak to this sense of wonder and speak to the urge to point at the older and more advanced adults as the bad guys. This seems to fit the spirit of what I have seen of Avatar so far.

I need to see the movie first before saying for sure, but I imagine the glorification of childlike wonder and a wish to protect it is a good part of the impact.

As a secondary theme (and a long second at that), I can see some kind of propagandist message. But I have yet to see a review that likens this movie to typical Soviet propaganda art or Medieval morality plays or things like that, so I imagine its appeal is far more universal than the current environmentalist debate.

After I see it, I will comment further.

Michael