Is Capitalism Moral?

[Wolf DeVoon]

You guys are missing the real culprits, Government Sponsored Enterprises (Fannie and Freddie) and the Clinton Administration mandate to push low-income minority home ownership under the Community Redevelopment Act.

"...although WaMu is a large mortgage originator, it comprises less than 5% of GSE mortgage-backed security volume."

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2007-11-08/why-wamu-got-wallopedbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice

[Selene]

You guys are missing the real culprits, Government Sponsored Enterprises (Fannie and Freddie) and the Clinton Administration mandate to push low-income minority home ownership under the Community Redevelopment Act.

"...although WaMu is a large mortgage originator, it comprises less than 5% of GSE mortgage-backed security volume."

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2007-11-08/why-wamu-got-wallopedbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice

Actually started under the Carter Administration and you know where he comes from.

A...

[turkeyfoot]

A functioning capitalist system cannot be perfect but it can be close enough to perfect that the resultant economic activity, in the aggregate, can be reflective of a dynamic and moral capitalist system.

--Brant

I have difficulty with the sentiment that champions, not a real world example with objective evidence, but an ideal supported by beliefs in a Capitalist system being only what we say it is and not what it might become in practice. What I mean by that is by removing govt force and adding rights respecting ground rules there is nothing to prevent immoral acts. Laws would deal with those aspects but wouldnt prevent crime. Imo, then, crime or immorality is part and parcel of the actions of the players in the system known as Capitalism

The source of my difficulty probably is, what is moral. Im asking. Theres another interesting quirk, can two people agree on what is moral?

Is it moral, for example, for WaMu's personnel to have written mortgages to people who couldnt afford them? Ive formed a temporary opinion related by the authors article from her observations of the people involved. My opinion is that if an action I take results in harm to me or my interests then its not good. Clearly the results in WaMus case were not good. But were they attained thru immoral methods? I tend to exclude stupidity, the CE was known to be a financial wizard.

Isnt it fair to ask, were their standards of work moral? Im asking.

This presents another problem for me. Proponents of C to a man unswervingly support the ideal, I rarely hear criticism. But at the root of many financial stories gone bad, sometimes if you look hard enough, peel away the layers, problems appear. Its issues as in the above example that need to be given honest exposition.

Thx

what books by Ayn Rand ?

--Brant

All, and many of the short stories (enjoyed Kira's Viking immensely)at some point in my development, starting with Anthem at 14 in '68, AS in my early 20's. Subscription to TIA and the Objectivist.

I am many things but an academic Im not. Could you tell? ) Carpenter, newsroom, computer tech, high speed printer tech. Retired now, writing and pencil drawing along with the interminable honey do list. And my own.

No notification flow on messages. All checked. Whats up with that?

[merjet]

It is the Community Redevelopment Reinvestment Act. While it started during the Carter Administration, the Act was amended three times (as my link shows) and enforcement efforts greatly strengthened during the Clinton administration.

[Brant Gaede]

deleted (a mess)

[Brant Gaede]

deleted (a mess)

[Selene]

It is the Community Redevelopment Reinvestment Act. While it started during the Carter Administration, the Act was amended three times (as my link shows) and enforcement efforts greatly strengthened during the Clinton administration.

Thanks MJ...

Precisely, it is beautiful the way they work. They have an almost Oriental time scope.

History is on our side meme.

Just get a crack in the foundation under Carter and encyst away.

Progressive incrementalism...the historical imperative.

If a few of the planted sprout into real ideologues, run them out there and if you get real lucky you get the current vessel of pure venom for the entire body politic.

A...

[Brant Gaede]

Can we cap this trite digression? If you want to de-trite it take WaMu and start a WaMu thread. The conversation on this thread is about morality.

--Brant

grump

[Wolf DeVoon]

Capitalism is 100% moral. Bad guys flunk out. Good conduct and reliable service is rewarded. Schumpeter's creative destruction shoves buggywhips and gaslight aside, champions better products like jet aircraft and cell phones. The problem is linguistic. Too many people attribute to capitalism the crazy priorities of government, which invariably pushes knucklehead business models -- WaMu and Countrywide, Solyndra, Enron, WorldCom, Chesapeake, etc.

[moralist]

turkeyfoot writes:

If you can create your own bubble of Capitalism, then perhaps you don't have to consider the effects outside of your personal interests.

I'm completely exposed to the consequences of my interests. It's called assuming personal responsibility for your actions. The inherent ethics of Capitalism reign supreme within my business and financial ventures because I started them from nothing and built them from the ground up to be precisely that way... and I never have to worry about money for the rest of my life.

Outside my personal sphere of interest belongs to the personal spheres of interest of others and they are responsible for the consequences they get for what they have created.

I have absolutely NO control over what others choose to do with their lives, so it logically follows that I have NO responsibility for what they do either.

Everyone else gets what they deserve for their actions just the same as I do.

Greg

[moralist]

Wolf writes:

Capitalism is 100% moral. Bad guys flunk out. Good conduct and reliable service is rewarded. Schumpeter's creative destruction shoves buggywhips and gaslight aside, champions better products like jet aircraft and cell phones. The problem is linguistic. Too many people attribute to capitalism the crazy priorities of government, which invariably pushes knucklehead business models -- WaMu and Countrywide, Solyndra, Enron, WorldCom, Chesapeake, etc.

We're on the same page here, Wolf.

The basic principles of Capitalism are without flaw:

Decency

Responsibility

Productivity

Solvency

Frugality

The ONLY flaw is CALLING things "Capitalism" that AREN'T Capitalism!

Greg

[jts]

On the subject of 'Is capitalism moral?', the title of this thread:

Let's start with a definition so we know what we are talking about.

Capitalism is defined by Ayn Rand as: social system based on recognition of individual rights.

Is recognition of individual rights moral? Is there a circumstance where recognition of rights would be immoral?

The popular definition of crapitalism capitalism by almost everybody except Objectivists is: private ownership of the means of production.

I don't like this definition. Why? Because it implies that slavery is capitalism. What is slavery? Slavery is private ownership of the means of production, the means of production being in this case slaves.

Thumbs up Ayn Rand's definition of capitalism.

Thumbs down the popular definition of capitalism.

Capitalism is moral if it is defined the way Ayn Rand defines it.

[turkeyfoot]

A functioning capitalist system cannot be perfect but it can be close enough to perfect that the resultant economic activity, in the aggregate, can be reflective of a dynamic and moral capitalist system.

--Brant

Turkeyfoot

Thx

So, what books by Ayn Rand have you read?

--Brant

let's get started, but we have to know where you are

_________________________

Okay

--Brant

An attempt at humor. Carry on, sir.

[Brant Gaede]

You're forgiven.

[Brant Gaede]

Wolf writes:

Capitalism is 100% moral. Bad guys flunk out. Good conduct and reliable service is rewarded. Schumpeter's creative destruction shoves buggywhips and gaslight aside, champions better products like jet aircraft and cell phones. The problem is linguistic. Too many people attribute to capitalism the crazy priorities of government, which invariably pushes knucklehead business models -- WaMu and Countrywide, Solyndra, Enron, WorldCom, Chesapeake, etc.

We're on the same page here, Wolf.

The basic principles of Capitalism are without flaw:

Decency

Responsibility

Productivity

Solvency

Frugality

The ONLY flaw is CALLING things "Capitalism" that AREN'T Capitalism!

Greg

Sounds like WASP values too.

--Brant

[moralist]

(shrug...) No matter what words you choose to call them... they work. I know this by my own direct personal experience.

Those five are the pathway to American freedom.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I wish you took the opportunity to do a little more thinking than immediately going to your default--or at least then working off your default.

--Brant

wishful thinking

[moralist]

I'm a little bird that sings only one note.

...and I'll leave the thinking to others as I'm more of a doer than a thinker. Thinking about those five pillars of Capitalism is worthless. Only acting on them makes them a reality in my life.

Greg

[Mikee]

Capitalism is:

1. Uncoerced free trade between individuals governed by the rule of law.

2. Absolute right to own and to keep what you earn through your trade.

This creates the greatest motivating force for thinking, planning, innovation, cooperation and hard work the world has ever seen.

It is also a great character builder [responsibility, decency, honesty, productivity, etc].

Widespread wealth and thriving follows.

Edited in response to Wolf DeVoon's post following:

[Wolf DeVoon]

Capitalism is:

1. Uncoerced free trade between individuals governed by the rule of law.

2. Absolute right to own and to keep property.

1. Enforceable contracts between individuals. The rule of law restrains arbitrary power of the state.

2. There is no absolute right to property. Fortunes flowed from government land grants, licenses, requisitions.

If you are a willing laborer for the Public Servant ruling class, you get a piece of the action – a very small piece if you are a peasant; a much larger piece if you clean toilets for Goldman Sachs. But all must serve New Rome on the Potomac, or starve. [COGGIC. p.72]

[moralist]

I'll take a stab at it...

Capitalism: An ethical system of exchange based on owned capital.

[Brant Gaede]

Coitus is when (oops!)

Capitalism is what's left over when government effectively protects, not violates, human rights.

--The Great Oz

has spoken

[turkeyfoot]

Capital is taken when -ism- is eliminated,

Freedoms just another word,

for nothin left to lose. )

[moralist]

Creditism: an unethical system of exchange based on the lie that debt is capital.

Most of the US economy is a combination of Statism, Collectivism, and Creditism.

Greg

[Selene]

Capitalism is...

Over TRUMPING the Great OZ...and I know the Great OZ and he's a good God...a nice God...

We worked on another creation together and it is the best creation ever made!!

Ask any of the Gods, we play interstellar golf on my Black Hole Course, which is better even than Bethpage Black on that Earth pleasure planet. We had a few pieces of that and I made a lot on that deal.