The foundations of ethics and morality...


BaalChatzaf

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.

1. Do you consider that unethical?

2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe?

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought?

--Brant

no evil in the universe, not even on Earth?

just noticed you accept in your question the existence of ethical and moral principles so there must be a connection and . . . ?

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.

--Brant

no evil in the universe, not even on Earth?

Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....

Ba'al Chatzaf

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.

1. Do you consider that unethical?

2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe?

The principles leading to my approval/disapproval do not seem to flow from the physical nature of the cosmos. What does the speed of light have to do with right/wrong?

Ba'al Chatzaf

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.

1. Do you consider that unethical?

2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe?

The principles leading to my approval/disapproval do not seem to flow from the physical nature of the cosmos. What does the speed of light have to do with right/wrong?

Ba'al Chatzaf

When you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! :smile:

--Brant

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.

--Brant

no evil in the universe, not even on Earth?

Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nothing at all. You, Greg and Francisco are natural if queer allies. Objectively no evil or in two cases don't even talk about it.

--Brant

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When you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! :smile:

--Brant

If something could go faster that the speed of light, then the underlying physical theories are wrong in the sense of being mistaken or incorrect. Morality has nothing to do with it.....

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When you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! :smile:

--Brant

If something could go faster that the speed of light, then the underlying physical theories are wrong in the sense of being mistaken or incorrect. Morality has nothing to do with it.....

Glad I'm not a literalist.

--Brant

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.

--Brant

no evil in the universe, not even on Earth?

Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....

Ba'al Chatzaf

Your life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??

If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant.

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Your life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??

If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant.

There are people who enjoy being alive and there are those who would rather not be alive. There is no physical law requiring one to prefer life over death.

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Your life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??

If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant.

There are people who enjoy being alive and there are those who would rather not be alive. There is no physical law requiring one to prefer life over death.

That's true. Value is man made.

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.

Ghs

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.

Ghs

Neurons zapping each other.....

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Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.

Get the book.

https://freedomainradio.com/free/#upb

Or listen to the video. 5 hours, 46 minutes.

1:17 Forward
10:19 Ground Rules
17:02 A Modest Suggestion...
19:07 Introduction
22:21 The "Null Zone"
26:44 The Casualties
30:01 "Middle Truths"
34:58 "Middle Truths" and Exploitation
41:22 Effective Parasitism
43:46 Part 1: Theory: A Framework for Ethics
46:35 Objective Truth
49:45 Truth and Objective Reality
51:41 Accuracy and Consistency
55:06 The Existence of "Truth"
56:26 Empiricism verses Rationality
57:52 Internal Consistency
1:01:26 Ethics
1:04:09 The Discipline of Theoretical Ethics
1:08:48 Self-Defeating Arguments
1:11:19 Preferences
1:13:13 Preferences and Existence
1:15:12 Preferences and Arguments
1:16:13 Preferences and Universality
1:18:42 Arguments and Universality
1:26:11 Universally Preferable Behavior
1:28:53 UPB and Validity
1:37:35 UPB: Five Proofs
1:59:12 UPB: Ethics or Aesthetics
2:01:19 Irrationality
2:02:04 Lying
2:03:16 Murder
2:03:33 Requirements for Ethics

2:05:29 Choice
2:07:06 Avoidance
2:10:39 Ethics, Aesthetics and Avoidability
2:14:04 Initiation
2:16:30 The Non-Aggression Principle (NAP)
2:19:52 Lifeboat Scenarios
2:21:45 Gray Areas
2:23:32 Shades of Gray
2:25:24 Universality Exceptions
2:27:58 The Purpose - and the Dangers
2:29:22 The Beast
2:32:49 Propaganda
2:37:55 Part 2: Application: Ethical Categories
2:38:29 The Seven Categories
2:41:13 Virtue and it's Opposite
2:42:39 What is Missing
2:43:52 The First Test: Rape
2:44:34 1. The Good
2:48:17 The Coma Test
2:50:41 Capacity
2:51:55 2. Aesthetically Positive
2:56:14 3. Personally Positive
2:58:55 4. Morally Neutral
2:59:09 5. Personally Negative
3:00:02 6. Aesthetically Negative
3:01:56 7. Evil
3:05:09 Whew!
3:06:36 The Second Test: Murder
3:12:45 Self Defense?
3:13:09 The Third Test: Theft

3:36:05 The Fourth Test: Fraud
3:41:20 The Fifth Test: Lying
3:44:49 More Challenging Tests of UPB
3:46:19 Self-Defense
3:52:03 Child Raising
4:00:25 "Don't Eat Fish"
4:04:13 Animal Rights
4:07:58 Part 3: Practice: The Value of UPB
4:09:19 The "Null Zone" Revisited
4:12:33 Bigotry
4:15:23 Next Stop: the "Alternate Universe"
4:18:54 Existence verses Non-Existence
4:23:12 The "Alternate Universe" in Human Society
4:24:33 UPB in Action
4:27:43 Government
4:31:11 Opinions and Reality
4:33:25 Government as Voluntarism
4:35:14 The Gun in the Room
4:38:26 Policemen
4:43:46 Practicality
4:49:52 The Necessity of the State?
5:03:42 Governments as Religion
5:07:57 Taxation
5:11:57 Government, Religion and UPB
5:15:12 Religion and UPB
5:16:46 UPB and "The Majority"
5:18:57 Majority Rule
5:20:18 Additional Proofs
5:20:29 The Free-Market Economy
5:21:47 The Scientific Method

5:22:37 Public Education
5:24:02 Parallels
5:28:11 Solutions
5:31:24 The Future
5:33:08 Conclusions
5:42:49 Appendix: UPB in a Nutshell
5:44:20 Appendix: Moral Categories
5:44:31 Appendix: Every UPB Debate I've Ever Had
5:45:45 Closing

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How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....

What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.

Ghs

Neurons zapping each other.....

Wow, I had no idea that your knowledge of neurophysiology was so profound. But as much as your insightful comment has clarified this matter, I remained puzzled. How does a "true" zapping differ from a "false" zapping?

Ghs

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Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)

--Brant

morality reduced to motility to basics!

philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah!

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Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)

--Brant

morality reduced to motility to basics!

philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah!

Thinking, feeling and comprehending are electrochemical processes from beginning to end.

It is all done with sodium and potassium ions.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)

--Brant

morality reduced to motility to basics!

philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah!

Thinking, feeling and comprehending are electrochemical processes from beginning to end.

It is all done with sodium and potassium ions.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?

--Brant

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Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?

--Brant

Actually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works...

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Bob writes:

How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe.

They are not directly connected.

Their only connection is through the actions of human beings. While ethics and morality pertain solely to to human behavior, the consequences of that behavior are subject to all of the physical laws.

Greg

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Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?

--Brant

Actually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works...

It's your contradiction you're not aware of. As for QM, your argument is with Albert Einstein.

--Brant

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Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?

--Brant

Actually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works...

It's your contradiction you're not aware of. As for QM, your argument is with Albert Einstein.

--Brant

Einstein was wrong. The Bell Inequalities have been verified experimentally. Quantum theory can account for them, hidden variables (a kind of classical theory) cannot. ...

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