Wilders speech to the Danish Free Press Society


Richard Wiig

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Dear friends,


I am happy to be in Copenhagen again.
It is always a pleasure to return to this wonderful city – the home of my good friend and fellow freedom fighter, the Danish hero Lars Hedegaard.
It is always a privilege to be in the capital of the brave Danish people.
And it is always an honor to be a guest of your great organization.
The Danish Free Press Society is a beacon of light. For Denmark, for Scandinavia, for the whole of Europe, and for the entire West. Your staunch defense of civil liberties, such as freedom of speech, serves as an inspiration for many, including myself and my party.
On a moment like this, when the free world is in mortal danger, an organization such as the Danish Free Press Society is needed more than ever.

Exactly ten years ago, today, my fellow countryman Van Gogh fell as a martyr of free speech.
I remember that morning very well. The press came to my office to ask for a reaction, but hardly anyone could believe that what had happened was really true. We all realized that the Netherlands would never be the same again. Unfortunately few lessons have been learned since that horrible day in 2004.

Islam claims that Muhammad was a prophet. But Muhammad was not a prophet; Theo van Gogh was a prophet.
Van Gogh saw what was coming. He spoke out forcefully against the danger of Islamization.
He had also just made a short movie, together with my then colleague Ayaan Hirsi Ali, about the plight of women in Islamic society. The movie was called "Submission."
That is why he was murdered. His assassination should have been an alarm bell.

Van Gogh warned us in a strong language, as clear as the colors that his great-granduncle Vincent used when painting his landscapes.
He was a brave man. When he realized the danger of Islam, he did not run like a coward.
He would have hated to see how our freedom of speech has been restricted in the ten years since his death.

Ladies and gentlemen, dear friends, the more Islam we get, the less free our societies become. Not only because of the islamization but also because of the weak appeasers who call themselves politicians.

We are no longer allowed to crack jokes or draw cartoons if Islam feels insulted by it.
If you do so, your life is in danger, as Kurt Westergaard and Lars Vilks can testify. You might even get arrested, as happened a few years ago with the Dutch cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot.
Sure, the charges against Nekschot were later dropped. But if you value your life and if you prefer to avoid trouble, it is better not to do anything that might remotely insult Islam.

We are no longer allowed to tell statistical truths, as Lars Hedegaard experienced, when he referred to rape figures in Islamic families.
A murderer came to Lars's door and the state authorities persecuted him for so-called hate speech. Sure, the Supreme Court eventually acquitted Lars. But if you value your life and if you prefer to avoid trouble, it is better to keep quiet.

We are no longer allowed to refer to scientific and historical research, as my friend, the brave Austrian human rights activist Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff, experienced.
In a seminar on the historical figure of Muhammad, she mentioned that he had a crush on little girls and had sex with a 9-year old. That is the truth.
But Elisabeth was convicted, and her conviction was even upheld by the Appeals court. Once again, it is better to remain silent if you want to avoid trouble.

But Theo van Gogh did not remain silent. And neither did Kurt and Lars and Elisabeth and Robert and the Danish Free Press Society, and my party, the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, and so many other freedom fighters in the West.

We speak out. We will never be silent. Because we love our country. Because we love our freedom. Because we refuse to live in slavery.
Because we believe that without liberty, life is not worth living.
Liberty and human dignity, that is what we stand for.
We are the torchbearers for freedom. We are the torchbearers for democracy.
We are the torchbearers for a civilization that is far superior than any other civilization on earth.

Last Summer, my home town, The Hague, witnessed scenes which brought back memories of the darkest period in our history, the Nazi era.
Sympathizers of the Islamic State paraded in our streets. They carried swastikas, they carried the black flags of ISIS. They shouted "Death to the Jews."
Instead of rounding up these hatemongers, the authorities did nothing.

When we warn against Islam, the authorities call it hate speech and bring us to court. But when the grim forces of hatred march down our streets, the police look on and do not interfere. It is a disgrace. It is a scandal. It is intolerable.

Islam is waging a war against the free West.
Indeed, we are at war. Only fools can deny it. Islam has declared war on us.

America and its allies are currently bombing the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq.

Excellent.

My party supports this offensive. I am glad that Dutch and Danish F16s participate in it and that our two nations stand shoulder to shoulder in this endeavor. We should liquidate Abu Bakr Al-Bagdadi and the other criminals who are leading the Islamic State.

But we have to do more than that.
Far more important than fighting Islamic State abroad, is the fight to preserve our own security in our own countries, in the Netherlands, in Denmark, in all the other European and Western countries. It is our homes that we must defend.
It is just to bomb the Islamic State in the Middle East. But our first priority must be to protect our own nations, our own freedoms, our own people, our own children, here, at home.

Recently, the Dutch authorities prevented some forty jihadis to leave our country, when they attempted to go to Syria to fight in the ranks of ISIS. Their passports were seized and they were sent home instead of jailed. These criminals now walk our streets and make them unsafe.

You may have heard that the jihadis who recently murdered soldiers in Canada were also people whom the authorities had previously prevented to leave for Syria and who were not arrested but allowed to go free on the street.

Blocking the exodus of those who want to wage Jihad elsewhere and not detain them is sheer stupidity.
Keeping them here as free people means that they will hit us here.
We must hasten their exit instead of preventing it. But we must never allow them to return. Therefore, we must reinstate national border controls.

Nothing is more important than first protect our own countries from the Jihadis.
Let us restore our liberties, such as freedom of speech.
Let us defend our culture. Let us protect our people.
Let us make our nations free and safe again.
Let us be brave.
That is what we must do; that is our duty.

Let me ask you: Do our authorities actually do this?
Unfortunately not.
They fail to do their duty.
They fail to act accordingly.
They even lie to us.

Everyday, we hear Western leaders repeat the sickening mantra that Islam is a religion of peace.
Whenever an atrocity is committed in the name of Islam, whenever someone is beheaded in Syria or Iraq, Barack Obama, David Cameron, my own Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and many of their colleagues rush to the television cameras to tell the world that it has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. How stupid can you be.

Fortunately, the eyes of ever more people are opening to this reality.
In my country, a poll last June, showed that 65% of the Dutch are convinced that the Islamic culture does not belong to the Netherlands.
In France, 74% find Islam incompatible with French society.
In Britain, fewer than one in four think that following Islam is compatible with a British way of life. In Germany, over two thirds of the population think negatively about Islam.
Even in the Czech Republic, a country with hardly any Islamic population, almost two-thirds consider Islam a threat to society and 90% are afraid of it. And in Denmark 92% of your citizens believe Muslim immigrants should adopt Danish customs.

With every new terrorist crime, with every new attack, with every new beheading, it becomes clear to ever more people what the true nature of Islam is.

With every Islamic assault on our values, more and more people realize that Islam wants to conquer the world, that it is prepared to kill or enslave anyone who refuses to submit. And that it is ready to commit the biggest atrocities to achieve this goal.

My friends, we are gathered here today, because we are neither prepared to collaborate with evil, nor to appease it.
We say No to Islamic censorship. And No to the politicians who fail us.

During the past ten years, I have been living under constant police protection.
As you know, I am not the only one who has to live through this ordeal. Several people in this room are in the same situation. Our friends Lars and Kurt even came to stand eye to eye with fanatics who tried to slaughter them.

Of course – I repeat it wherever I go – of course, there are many moderate Muslims. I believe in moderate people, but I do not believe in a moderate Islam. There is only one Islam – the Islam of the Koran, the Hadith and the life of Muhammad, who was a terrorist and a warlord.

But even though there are many moderate Muslims, it is wrong to think that the moderates are a majority. They are not. A poll in the Netherlands gave shocking results. It is hard to believe, but almost three quarters of the Muslims in my country say that Dutch Muslims who go and fight in Syria are heroes. Can you believe it? Heroes!
And over two thirds of the Islamic population in the Netherlands consider the religious rules of Islam to be more important than our own democratic laws.
Equally terrifying was an article yesterday in the Dutch press stating that Mohammed Bouyeri, the murderer of Theo van Gogh, is still considered a hero today by hundreds of Dutch Muslims.

A few years ago, I called on Muslims to liberate themselves from the yoke of Islam, to choose for freedom. I wholeheartedly support Muslims who love freedom. So, I told them "Free yourselves. Leave Islam." I still stand by this appeal. But this does not blind me to the present reality.

You may have heard that I will probably be brought to court again soon.
Three years ago, I was taken to court on hate crime charges. The court case lasted almost two years. Fortunately, I was acquitted.
But now, the Dutch judiciary is going after me again because I asked Dutch voters whether they want more or fewer Moroccans in the Netherlands.

Moroccans are the largest Islamic population group in the Netherlands. In The Netherlands the Moroccan problem is the problem of Islam.
I referred to Moroccans, not because I have anything against Moroccans but because they are overrepresented in the Dutch crime and welfare statistics. They also account for three quarters of all Dutch Muslims who leave for Syria to wage jihad. No-one in the Netherlands wants more Moroccans.

As I said, our leaders still refuse to defend our freedoms because they are either cowards or appeasers. This is why the task of defending freedom has now fallen on us. On you, on me, on ordinary citizens.

To this end, I have established the International Freedom Alliance IFA.
We want IFA to be the shield of all those who refuse to submit to Islamic tyranny.
The mission of IFA is to stop the Islamization of non-Islamic countries and to fight for the preservation of our freedom and democracy.

We want to stand firm. We want to preserve our civilization for our children and grandchildren. Because there is nothing more precious than liberty and freedom. But it has a price. And the price can be high. Sometimes a man must give all he can.

Our political leaders may fail us. But we, my friends, we will not fail.
There is a path we shall never choose, and that is the path of submission.
This is why we say: Yes to freedom! No to tyranny!

IFA aims to be a network of resistance fighters in all the countries threatened by Islam.

Friends, I have good news from the Netherlands.

Today, the popularity of my party, the Party for Freedom, is at a high. An opinion poll published this morning shows that we have by far become the largest party in the Netherlands, with almost 20 per cent of the vote. 1 out of 5 Dutchmen would vote PVV today.

The policies that we stand for are also getting more popular than ever.
We want to stop all immigration from Islamic countries.
We want to stimulate voluntary re-emigration to Islamic countries.
We want to expel all criminals with dual citizenship and deprive them of their Dutch nationality.
We want to de-islamize our nation.

Dear Friends, there is a lot of work to do. We, the defenders of freedom and security, have an historic duty.

Our generation has been entrusted with a huge task: To oppose Islam and keep the flame of liberty burning.

I say it without exaggeration: the future of human civilization depends on us. Now is a time when everyone in the West must do his duty. We are writing history here.

So, let us do our duty.
Let us stand with a happy heart and a strong spirit.
Let us go forth with courage and save freedom!

Thank you.

http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php/94-english/1890-geert-wilders-speech-danish-free-press-society-copenhagen-2-11-2014

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I'm only talking about Richard's approach to the subject. It's all he's about. Boring. You don't free Muslims from their oppressive religion by pointing out how nonsensical it is. It was spread by the sword and they are oppressed by the sword. The only way to help them is to beat up on sundry Islamic countries when terrorism comes out their doors. It's also known as self defense, not their defense except as a happy(?) consequence. Not much knowledge of their religion is needed. That's what happened to Nazi Germany--not a Muslim country. The German's paid a terrible price for Hitler. Not much knowledge of Nazism was required. Telling 1930s Germans how bad Nazism was would have done not a whit of good. You have to fight the right country in the right way of course. It doesn't have to be military action. Iraq circa 2003 was a stupid and costly joke.

Every thread that starts out about Muslims and their religion deserves immediate placement in the Garbage Pile because of Richard. It's no justice to a thread starter to wait until he posts on it. Know it going in. Either that or ban the guy according to the site owner's moral metric.

--Brant

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Mike,

That stuff plays to a small fringe. If you are interested in doing something about the threats from Islamist fundamentalists, I have some ideas on what needs to be done to help change certain Islamic core storylines. And I'm doing some of them. But nothing short-term.

But what the hell. Why not do the SLOP approach? We can all sit around all day bitching about Islam as the root of all evil on a website from the comfort of our homes (maybe right before we get another beer or coffee) and pat ourselves on the back for trouncing the enemy and striking a massive blow for freedom. Remote control activism. Push the button and we can feel moral and righteous. Damn, I'm one of the good guys! Take that, bastards! Islam is scum! (burp...)

Or we can get our hands dirty and actually engage Muslims, publish alternative storylines in the different media (written words, audio, images, videos), support reform Muslims and reform Muslim organizations, try to help move the Overton Window in that culture, help set up terrorism detection, etc.

Woah... that sounds like work...

:smile:

One way is garbage. The other is a plan.

One way is easy. The other is hard.

It's a choice.

Michael

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I don't have the cosmopolitan personality of engaging Muslims or most people of most groups, tribes or what have you. Even Jews as Jews in Israel, but I do intend to visit. I think I'd enjoy the Italians in Italy, however. They sound like un-snobish fun with a fun language. But If it were incumbent on me to learn another language and I could chose, I'd learn Japanese.

--Brant

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I'm only talking about Richard's approach to the subject. It's all he's about. Boring. You don't free Muslims from their oppressive religion by pointing out how nonsensical it is. It was spread by the sword and they are oppressed by the sword. The only way to help them is to beat up on sundry Islamic countries when terrorism comes out their doors. It's also known as self defense, not their defense except as a happy(?) consequence. Not much knowledge of their religion is needed. That's what happened to Nazi Germany--not a Muslim country. The German's paid a terrible price for Hitler. Not much knowledge of Nazism was required. Telling 1930s Germans how bad Nazism was would have done not a whit of good. You have to fight the right country in the right way of course. It doesn't have to be military action. Iraq circa 2003 was a stupid and costly joke.

Every thread that starts out about Muslims and their religion deserves immediate placement in the Garbage Pile because of Richard. It's no justice to a thread starter to wait until he posts on it. Know it going in. Either that or ban the guy according to the site owner's moral metric.

--Brant

You make me think of those anti-smut campaigners who, when they see a television channel they think might have smut on it, rather than go to another channel, dive in with relish and then proceed to tell everyone else how they need to be protected from the smut that they've found. Another thing that stands out to me, Brant, is that you seem to prefer all out war over nipping it in the bud before things ever get to that point. In that other thread Michael says it's preposterous to say that the mainstream doesn't address Jihadist ideology. It isn't preposterous. The only ones who are addressing it are the counter jihadists, and they're all being denounced as bigoted Islamophobes, of which Geert Wilders is a prime example. The mainstream twist themselves into knots to sever any connection between Jihadists and Islam. That, of course, is going to ensure all out war. It certainly won't nip anything in the bud. I posted Geert Wilders speech simply because I thought it was a rousing call to freedom that was worth the read. It should move the heart of any freedom lover.

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I'm only talking about Richard's approach to the subject. It's all he's about. Boring. You don't free Muslims from their oppressive religion by pointing out how nonsensical it is. It was spread by the sword and they are oppressed by the sword. The only way to help them is to beat up on sundry Islamic countries when terrorism comes out their doors. It's also known as self defense, not their defense except as a happy(?) consequence. Not much knowledge of their religion is needed. That's what happened to Nazi Germany--not a Muslim country. The German's paid a terrible price for Hitler. Not much knowledge of Nazism was required. Telling 1930s Germans how bad Nazism was would have done not a whit of good. You have to fight the right country in the right way of course. It doesn't have to be military action. Iraq circa 2003 was a stupid and costly joke.

Every thread that starts out about Muslims and their religion deserves immediate placement in the Garbage Pile because of Richard. It's no justice to a thread starter to wait until he posts on it. Know it going in. Either that or ban the guy according to the site owner's moral metric.

--Brant

You make me think of those anti-smut campaigners who, when they see a television channel they think might have smut on it, rather than go to another channel, dive in with relish and then proceed to tell everyone else how they need to be protected from the smut that they've found. Another thing that stands out to me, Brant, is that you seem to prefer all out war over nipping it in the bud before things ever get to that point. In that other thread Michael says it's preposterous to say that the mainstream doesn't address Jihadist ideology. It isn't preposterous. The only ones who are addressing it are the counter jihadists, and they're all being denounced as bigoted Islamophobes, of which Geert Wilders is a prime example. The mainstream twist themselves into knots to sever any connection between Jihadists and Islam. That, of course, is going to ensure all out war. It certainly won't nip anything in the bud. I posted Geert Wilders speech simply because I thought it was a rousing call to freedom that was worth the read. It should move the heart of any freedom lover.

I don't object to Geert's speech. He's attempting to marshal state power. So too are the jihadists. The jihadists will lose because of what they do, not because of what they read and preach. His remarks against the Muslim religion are appropriate out of his context and to ID what needs to be done and why. There's more objecting to the laws he has to deal with that let Islamists do what they do in his country. In other words, they are trying to take over and use state power to oppress the infidels of his country from the inside.

In the meantime ISIS continues to execute scores of Sunni Muslims, men, women and children. I thought ISIS was Sunni. It's a fuckin' fascist power grab. That's what Geert's trying to deal with.

You don't know what I advocate for war. It's not all out. It's use your brains. I was against the Iraq invasion of 2003. I came up with quite a few alternative ideas for dealing with 9-11 posted on the Internet, I think on the old Atlantis. After "Mission Accomplished" there wasn't any more point to it, if there had been in the first place.

--Brant

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"That stuff plays to a small fringe".

Sure, it's not entertaining enough, it's boring to the majority who aren't paying much attention. Just another channel on cable. What if it becomes not boring? When the "jihadists" achieve their wildest dreams and perhaps kill 50,000 people in the united states. Maybe twice what are killed on our highways yearly. What happens then? I'll tell you, a Hiroshima event happens. If you frighten and piss off people enough they will become the nightmare opposite of multiculturally and politically correct. The west is orders of magnitude superior in economic and scientific and technological power than the muslim culture. They are living in a fantasy, they buy war toys with oil money, cut off a few heads and feel powerful. Frighten the people of the western world enough and their homeland becomes a moonscape, even without nuclear weapons. I would not like to see this happen. I have repeated many times what I believe, most people in every culture would prefer to live in peace, work, take care of their families, live and let live. I think there is some kind of stockholm syndrome happening in the muslim culture. Identification with very dangerous irrational people because that is better than living in abject fear. The antidote is the west has to show zero tolerance for terrorism and intimidation. No negotiation, no half measures. Show some backbone now or watch the Hiroshima event later, your choice. Far from being a bigot, Richard is a humanitarian.

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Richard is holding the wrong end of the stick. You are both conflating jihad with Muslims generally. I think we'd get clarity if we specify what's to be done with 1.3 billion Muslims. Me? Nothing. Jihadists? Kill them where you find them. As to psychological warfare? Be careful. You may create more of what you hate. Telling Muslims Mohammed had sex with a 9 yo girl isn't necessarily wise. Etc. Targeting members of a faith for being members of a faith because some use it for terrible purposes has a tendency to radicalize other members. War with a 1.3 billion people pool is not winable if not unending. A secular state needs to wage secular war against secular forces hiding behind a religion. Jihadists are murderous, tyrannical fascists. They want the Richards of the world to help them recruit. These Richards are the jihadists "useful idiots." That's why this thread is on The Garbage Pile. Michael isn't supporting this approach and calls it bigotry. I guarantee if it keeps up he'll do more than that. He won't pay for the platform for such animadversion upon comparatively innocent people. In the meantime, maybe you can see the light. The "humanitarian" won't. He's been doing this stuff for years and years on SOLO with little attention to anything else.

--Brant

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You may create more of what you hate. Telling Muslims Mohammed had sex with a 9 yo girl isn't necessarily wise. Etc. Targeting members of a faith for being members of a faith because some use it for terrible purposes has a tendency to radicalize other members.

--Brant

Brant: That word "radicalize" or "radicalization" has got to go. (I sense you're uncomfortable with it as well).

It's a nothing word and anti-concept, foisted on us by a media in step with progressivist intellectuals; I think it's based on false causation and the denial of individual self-accountability. Being handled with kid-gloves is the biggest insult to anybody with self-respect, and the soft treatment is obviously failing with the radicals anyway.

Whoever heard of some Christians, for example, being "radicalized" into committing acts by hurtful or insulting references to Jesus Christ? If a few did, they'd get laughed out of town. Islam is not exactly so tiny it needs special protection (outside of individual rights protection, in advanced nations) and some Muslims' outrage at any perceived slight, meant or not, uttered on the other side of the world, is insanely out of touch with reality - creating a victimhood mentality by protesting too much. If the world of Islam wants to be treated with the same civilised dues that every religion is treated - not feared - each has to look to themself and mature.

That some Muslims relish or encourage the growing fear and paranoia in the West, as some evidently do, is something else entirely.

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Far from being a bigot, Richard is a humanitarian.

Mike,

We sure disagree on the nature of people, don't we?

Anyway, I have a forum to run and I'm doing a reasonably good job of it. People actually come here every day. Many more read than participate, but they come.

That's not by accident.

Notice that the humanitarians and intellectuals you admire so much can't seem to generate--or keep--enough audience to have a public voice.

If I treated these folks the way you want me to, we would end up closing OL. And I am not going to close OL.

I do not have much patience for narcissists and bigots. I tolerate them, but only up to a certain point.

I will keep repeating this. They are free to set up shop anywhere on the Internet. They don't. And when they do, nobody comes.

Let me repeat that again.

They do not set up their own sites and when they do, they flop miserably.

Ever think about why? Even though they are free to do so?

After all, freedom seems to be an important principle to these folks.

Maybe it's because of their bleeding humanitarian hearts or vastly superior intellects and people are just envious...

Maybe it's a backbone problem...

Yeah, right...

Michael

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However if some Muslims relish or encourage the growing fear and paranoia in the West, that's something else entirely.

Tony,

A bigoted approach to Islam, the one proposed by the Infidels running around, are the friends of the violent Muslim bigots.

I am an enemy of Islamist fundamentalists. But a bigoted enemy of my enemy if not my friend.

Ever.

The bigots are just as much part of the problem as the violent jihadists. They have the same collectivist tribal epistemology. Just different gods and tribes.

I have a heroic, individualist view of human nature. I got it from Rand, but the kernel was always within me. The stories of conquest in my world are not ones of holy wars.

Michael

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Michael, It doesn't change what I think, which is that nobody can be "radicalized" against their will, except perhaps by physical force.

Nobody has the right to not be offended. "Radicalization" is the justification used by Westerners to explain the irrational, which is also, I believe, being utilized by some/many Muslims to justify their own actions. Double standards is the result. I have never heard the word applied to any other people or group.

Collectivism? That's entirely my prime focus. From where I'm looking and been following for most of my life, collectivization is increasing within Islam. Bigotry? I think I've long forgotten what it's like to be a bigot - too much exposure to so many races and religions, and too much enjoyment in finding a person's individuality and individualism.

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I disagree, Tony. "Radicalize" means here going from a passive to existentially active state off one's core beliefs, as the Christians used to do hundreds of years ago as in the Crusades. An anti-concept is an Objectivist idea that needs some explication. If you start a thread on it I'll be happy to participate. I suggest a juicy, core quote. Absent that it's just an Objectivist way to tell someone to shut up. You may be on to something, however. Do you have a better word to describe my position or is it just wrong? You are also conflating some Muslims with all Muslims just like Infidel and Mikee.

Islam ("world of") neither wants to be treated or not treated in any particular way. Now you are the one denying self-responsibility while I never did. Note the quote where I said "other members." I think you and Richard are in the same impotent country boat. The United States can send an army abroad but not so much Australia and not at all South Africa. The same applies for Geert in Denmark. So your battles are local. You want to avoid, I suggest, being eaten up from the inside, especially true for Geert. In such cases you have to get more personal to draw up the battlelines. When the bullets start flying, as they are in Denmark, you fight back with just about everything. In Vietnam I loved napalm dropped on people trying to kill me. The whole idea of combat for the combatant--never mind the colonel in the helicopter--is to kill the other guy so he can't kill you. That other guy has the same idea (but no napalm--he used punji sticks). If I were a Dane I'd stand with Geert. He's literally engaged. Then you throw everything you can at who wants to kill and oppress you including his religion along with references to his mother as in "motherfucker!" That's why I had no objection to Infidel's quoting Geert. I was bored of his type of continual postings not what was posted in that instance. Or, he bores me. His whole approach bores me. If he's in a foxhole in Australia as Geert is in Denmark, then that's what he should be talking about. Then we can exchange and discuss sundry combat strategies, some ideological.

Attacking Islam is like attacking a huge glob of jelly with a knife. Your real opponent is the fascist standing next to it, thanking Allah for his opponent or just thanking his opponent. He laughs himself to sleep every night he's not out there killing Muslim men, women and children blaming it on the religion. ("Allah makes me [us] do it," "I [we] do it for Allah's sake.") Infidel is his arm-chair warrior, his "useful idiot."

--Brant

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If I were a Dane I'd stand with Geert. He's literally engaged. Then you throw everything you can at who wants to kill and oppress you including his religion along with references to his mother as in "motherfucker!"

Brant,

Man, do you get me. 100% agreement.

This is the context the Holy War Crusaders do not want on the table.

If I were a Dane, I would stand with Geert, too. In fact, I would most likely be much worse than he is. I am not a nice person under attack.

In fact, the very existence of people like you and me is another context the Holy War Crusaders do not want on the table. They want to say we are spineless. I know I am not and, from everything I know about you, you are not either. I think you are dangerous in a real way to a real enemy.

Michael

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Brant, That old method of unifying the tribe and grabbing power is of stating often enough : "See those people over there? They are not like us, we are so morally better, and besides -see - they hate us!". (heh) Accentuate the differences enough and you have the power base of an ideology, which you 'know' is ultimately for everyone's 'good' anyway.

In trying to get to grips with Arab countries or single Muslims and how they perceive Islam, I've mainly failed; failed to identify any consistency from one to the next, or from day to day. Good old "mixed premises" hold here, as for any religious people, and given the ambiguity of Islam's teaching, moreso. But one thing, at bottom, for some unknown reason, many seem to sincerely believe they are collectively under existential threat by the West.

How that is so, why, and how it would be possible, is beyond me. It's like a massive inferiority complex.

The differences between you and I come down to numbers, proportions and distinctions, I think. Up till some years ago I was happy in the conviction that the huge majority of Muslims desired nothing but living good lives, getting along reasonably well with others, and assimilating into countries they immigrated to. Out on the fringe, was the mad minority who were despised by other Muslims.

So, the good guys - and the fundamentalists, white and black.

But too much stuff has been happening recently, plenty inter-sectarian and international conflicts, too complicated for most of us to understand -- and along with it, hardening attitudes against the culture and policies of the West. How much or none is orchestrated? Qatar, for one instance, despite its modern, western image has been found to be a financier of terrorism.

To cut it short, I believe I'm seeing far far more shades of grey than I once saw. More talk of vengeance because of injured pride from past wrongs pereptrated on them - and especially that perceived 'threat' to their existence - has been shifting a large number of Muslims into the middle ground, not exactly implicitly or explicitly in favour of violent and fundamental groups - but not exactly against them, either. It's a wait and see approach, I'm picking up, and that is troubling me.

The 'fighting' you bring up has to be through our ideas on this forum, NOT against religionism and Faith per se, (we've all accepted those are here for keeps), but against force by any religions.

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Tony, a lot of what you are experiencing now is from just that radicalization I was talking about. The stupid and unnecessary US mucking around in Iraq and Afghanistan had the most to do with it. The US was "bear baited." Throwing more gasoline on that fire is not fighting fire with fire but making a bigger one.

--Brant

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