Massacre... a consequence of US leaving Iraq...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You really must dislike me a lot to have made all that stuff up, Michael. I have never advocated wiping Islam off the face of the earth. Nor have I ever advocated rushing headlong into military action.

You already know what I think of you, I say it openly, and that does not change without a major change in your rationality.

Just keep it down to a dull thud and don't be machine-gun posting and I will let you spread some of your crap around.

If that doesn't suit you, go preach your bigotry to Perigo in that echo chamber of his.

He laps this shit up.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

btw - I don't know if you noticed, but he says you have no choice in the matter.

That is the wet dream of bigots.

Michael

No! That is the recognition that the conflict is being brought to us whether we asked for it or not. It is all being brought about by forces beyond your and my control.

Being bigoted against bigots I can understand Michael's pain to think it's roaming about his OL, but bigotry is essentially besides the point for it belongs to the bigot, not the debate.

I think Richard has overcooked his case by about 10,000 percent; these things wax and wane. The ISISers of the world will get "civilized by a Craig" and life will go on to the next crisis. Now that ISIS has revealed itself just block them from the north with the Kurds and from the south with the Iranian client state of Iraq and chew them down with bombs, guns and isolation--or not, for uncontained they will spread themselves thin and weak.

I wonder, though, if they will blow that "Project X" dam? (If Israel blows Aswan that would be the effective end of Egypt.)

In the meantime the impotence of evil will continue, by and large, to accelerate.

--Brant

no need to send out the signal; I read OL daily

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Hmm. Five million internal enemies in the United States?

Native-born American Muslims are mainly African-Americans who make up about a quarter of the total Muslim population. Many of these have converted to Islam during the last seventy years. Conversion to Islam in large urban areas has also contributed to its growth over the years. The Muslim population of the U.S. increased dramatically in the 20th century, with much of the growth driven by a comparatively high birth rate and immigrant communities of Arab and South Asian descent. About 72% of American Muslims are immigrants or "second- generation." [Wikipedia]

Wolf,

Here is a perspective on the Nation of Islam branch of Islam from Muhammad Ali. This is not a perspective you normally get in the mainstream, but I believe it is the glue that holds that branch together.

From Ali's eyes at the time he lived these problems, I think Islam made perfect sense. Ali is extremely articulate in that video about why he embraced Islam.

As to the Nation of Islam itself, they are going to self-destruct from internal combustion. Their leader, Louis Farrakhan, has embraced Scientology and is trying to integrate that into Islam. Seriously. You can Google that, it's all over the Internet. I even embedded some videos here on OL back when we had an active Muslim on board (he called himself Libertarian Muslim). I suspect he follows Farrakhan because of some of his comments and the fact that he disappeared right around the time I started talking about Farrakhan embracing Scientology.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

btw - I don't know if you noticed, but he says you have no choice in the matter.

That is the wet dream of bigots.

Michael

No! That is the recognition that the conflict is being brought to us whether we asked for it or not. It is all being brought about by forces beyond your and my control.

Being bigoted against bigots I can understand Michael's pain to think it's roaming about his OL, but bigotry is essentially besides the point for it belongs to the bigot, not the debate.

I think Richard has overcooked his case by about 10,000 percent...

Brant,

You can say that again. And if we let him, it will ramp up from there (like it has).

I admit I do get amused that he is bothered that others (like me) judge him the same way he judges others (Muslims), but the amusement lasts about 10 seconds and I don't use CYA rhetoric. (He reminds me of those who say I don't hate Jews, I just hate Zionism. Except he says I don't hate Muslims, I just hate Islam. blah blah blah... It's all the same crap.)

I hadn't thought much about it until today, but on reflection, that "you have no choice in the matter" thing with bigots is deeper than the surface issue. It's the way they think. It's part of their epistemology. Because if they felt they had a choice, there would be no excuse inside themselves for their massive blank-outs when someone points to a large group of their hated target and says, "Look at them. They're not like that."

btw - This is not MY OL. It is OUR OL. That's the way I think about it in my heart.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

btw - This is not MY OL. It is OUR OL. That's the way I think about it in my heart.

Michael

Waiting for my PayPal cut.

--Brant

bigot here, bigot there, bigot, bigot everywhere!

[Brant Gaede]

Oh, oh. I just set myself up.

--Brant

[Richard Wiig]

btw - I don't know if you noticed, but he says you have no choice in the matter.

That is the wet dream of bigots.

Michael

No! That is the recognition that the conflict is being brought to us whether we asked for it or not. It is all being brought about by forces beyond your and my control.

I think Richard has overcooked his case by about 10,000 percent; these things wax and wane.

--Brant

no need to send out the signal; I read OL daily

Time will tell that. If I'm wrong, and it isn't Islam that is the problem, then there is no problem. If I'm right though, and Islam is the problem, then it will become clearer as time goes on that we are in a global civilisational struggle, and that it was wrong to focus on distractions such as Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Nusra Front, Taliban, or whatever the favoured name of the day happened to be.

[Selene]

I wonder, though, if they will blow that "Project X" dam? (If Israel blows Aswan that would be the effective end of Egypt.)

Brant:

I am sure that there are responsible military policy members in Israel that have that operation planned. I would.

I am extremely concerned about ISIS just opening the gates, they could flush out and drown millions.

I thought I saw some mention of fighting around the damn today.

A...

[moralist]

Time will tell that. If I'm wrong, and it isn't Islam that is the problem, then there is no problem. If I'm right though, and Islam is the problem, then it will become clearer as time goes on that we are in a global civilisational struggle, and that it was wrong to focus on distractions such as Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Nusra Front, Taliban, or whatever the favoured name of the day happened to be.

I believe you've struck at the heart of the matter...

It's revealed by the hydra like quality of the multiple heads you referenced. Cut one off... two more appear. Those heads are all drawing their sustenance from a much larger unseen common body which has unlimited resources and clear intentions.

Islamic fascists are the new Nazis.

Greg

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here is a perspective on the Nation of Islam branch of Islam from Muhammad Ali. This is not a perspective you normally get in the mainstream, but I believe it is the glue that holds that branch together.

From Ali's eyes at the time he lived these problems, I think Islam made perfect sense. Ali is extremely articulate in that video about why he embraced Islam.

I want to add a note to this.

When people talk about Obama being a Muslim, I don't believe he is, but I do believe he shares the same orientation, or something very similar, as that of Muhammad Ali.

So he has major respect for the religion on the basis of race alone. And note, I don't believe that particular frame is racist. Islam for many blacks is a powerful origin story with centuries of glory and a full set of its own mythologies that rival Christianity, especially seeing that the alternative origin story for them is coming from slaves.

I can see that attraction easily and it has nothing to so with hatred of the West, hatred of the good, love of misogyny, and all the other stuff people have attributed to the intent of Muslims. In the case of American blacks in the Nation of Islam, it was about reclaiming an historical storyline they could be proud of--one that got interrupted with slavery.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Islamic fascists are the new Nazis.

Greg,

I believe this, but that is not this dude's stated meaning. He has stated over and over (in different words) that making a category like "Islamist" is somehow misguided and appeasing. To him, the real trouble is Islam itself, which means in practice, all who follow it.

Michael

[moralist]

Here is a perspective on the Nation of Islam branch of Islam from Muhammad Ali. This is not a perspective you normally get in the mainstream, but I believe it is the glue that holds that branch together.

From Ali's eyes at the time he lived these problems, I think Islam made perfect sense. Ali is extremely articulate in that video about why he embraced Islam.

I want to add a note to this.

When people talk about Obama being a Muslim, I don't believe he is, but I do believe he shares the same orientation, or something very similar, as that of Muhammad Ali.

So he has major respect for the religion on the basis of race alone. And note, I don't believe that particular frame is racist. Islam for many blacks is a powerful origin story with centuries of glory and a full set of its own mythologies that rival Christianity, especially seeing that the alternative origin story for them is coming from slaves.

I can see that attraction easily and it has nothing to so with hatred of the West, hatred of the good, love of misogyny, and all the other stuff people have attributed to the intent of Muslims. In the case of American blacks in the Nation of Islam, it was about reclaiming an historical storyline they could be proud of--one that got interrupted with slavery.

Michael

Too bad Ali was too much of a racist to simply be proud to be an American... which has nothing to do with any particular race, but is a system of moral values which make Western civilization possible.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I wonder, though, if they will blow that "Project X" dam? (If Israel blows Aswan that would be the effective end of Egypt.)

Brant:

I am sure that there are responsible military policy members in Israel that have that operation planned. I would.

I am extremely concerned about ISIS just opening the gates, they could flush out and drown millions.

I thought I saw some mention of fighting around the damn today.

A...

Israel will never do that. Egypt's not the problem. Islamists can't get enough traction in Egypt. The pyramids remind Egyptians there was glory long before their religion and it's their own historical glory.

Israel breaks up the Muslim monolith because the major sects hate each other more than Jews--or Israel. So, sub rosa, one choses Israel for any current advantage (but while Iran remains the implacable enemy).

Israel's enemy isn't the Muslim religion so much as Iran. State to State. State to State is why Pakistan's nukes aren't a threat to Israel so much as India.

State to State describes Israel-United States relations. Sans that Israel would seek more compensatory relations. The Obama fiasco has made Israel psychologically stronger* by being less dependent on undependable America. That's good--to an extent--for there is too much a client-state relationship between the two.

--Brant

*speculation

[Richard Wiig]

Islamic fascists are the new Nazis.

Greg,

I believe this, but that is not this dude's stated meaning. He has stated over and over (in different words) that making a category like "Islamist" is somehow misguided and appeasing. To him, the real trouble is Islam itself, which means in practice, all who follow it.

Michael

Of course the trouble is Islam itself. All these groups are products of Islam. Given that, how is it possible to think that Islam isn't in fact the problem? Acknowledging this fact does not make someone a bigot.

[Richard Wiig]

Here is a perspective on the Nation of Islam branch of Islam from Muhammad Ali. This is not a perspective you normally get in the mainstream, but I believe it is the glue that holds that branch together.

From Ali's eyes at the time he lived these problems, I think Islam made perfect sense. Ali is extremely articulate in that video about why he embraced Islam.

I want to add a note to this.

When people talk about Obama being a Muslim, I don't believe he is, but I do believe he shares the same orientation, or something very similar, as that of Muhammad Ali.

So he has major respect for the religion on the basis of race alone. And note, I don't believe that particular frame is racist. Islam for many blacks is a powerful origin story with centuries of glory and a full set of its own mythologies that rival Christianity, especially seeing that the alternative origin story for them is coming from slaves.

I can see that attraction easily and it has nothing to so with hatred of the West, hatred of the good, love of misogyny, and all the other stuff people have attributed to the intent of Muslims. In the case of American blacks in the Nation of Islam, it was about reclaiming an historical storyline they could be proud of--one that got interrupted with slavery.

Michael

Too bad Ali was too much of a racist to simply be proud to be an American... which has nothing to do with any particular race, but is a system of moral values which make Western civilization possible.

Greg

And that too hits the nail on the head. Ali would have been best off to have embraced the constitution than to adopt Islam, which has in fact been worse in regards to black slavery than any other institution.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Of course the trouble is Islam itself. All these groups are products of Islam. Given that, how is it possible to think that Islam isn't in fact the problem? Acknowledging this fact does not make someone a bigot.

I'm only going to do this once.

X produces good things.

X also produces bad things.

Therefore X is all bad.

That is the logic of a bigot. Right before he starts saying X actually never produced anything good.

And, yes, calling that a "fact" makes one a bigot.

Michael

[Selene]

I would suggest reading, or, at least take some excerpts out of "Message To The Black Man, in Ameerica" by the Honorable Elijah Mohammed

This has an excellent index:

http://seventhfam.com/temple/books/black_man/blkindex.htm

Remember, not only Mohammed Ali, Detroit Red/Malcom X also. Malcolm X transformed one of his positions after he returned from Mecca.

I read this a few decades ago and it is enlightening.

A...

[moralist]

Islamic fascists are the new Nazis.

Greg,

I believe this, but that is not this dude's stated meaning. He has stated over and over (in different words) that making a category like "Islamist" is somehow misguided and appeasing. To him, the real trouble is Islam itself, which means in practice, all who follow it.

Michael

I understand your point, Michael. That is the prevailing view of Islam as molded by the media.

But Infidel's contention is strengthened by the tacit approval of the billions of so-called "decent moderate Muslims" who have NO problem with their religion being perverted by Islamic fascists. Why? Because that perversion is already built into the religion itself.

It's like Christianity without a Reformation.

So they are quite willing to go along with whatever the the jihadis want to do ...and none of those billions bothers to raise their voice, let alone their hand against them...

...and there is a reason for that:

Weakness is not goodness. Weakness is evil.

Ever see a nice person who has keeps a vicious Rottweiler as a pet?

Hint:

That nice person is not nice.

Greg

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... the tacit approval of the billions of so-called "decent moderate Muslims" who have no problem with their religion being hijacked by Islamic fascists.

Greg,

This is a myth straight from the center of the core story we live in. See here:

Muslims Who Stand Up To Islamists -- Karima Bennoune

I posted this on August 9 and not one comment.

Nobody in our culture is interested in Muslims who stand up to the Islamists in the name of their religion. We only want Muslims to stand up to Islamists in the name of our core stories.

So we perpetuate the myth that Islamists are tacitly accepted among all Muslims.

Believe me, I am not defending Islam. I don't care for that religion.

But I do care about identifying something correctly so it can be judged correctly. When we say something that is patently false and keep repeating it until bigots appear amongst us and we think their message is normal, it doesn't matter how we judge it. We are going to be wrong.

And the bigots will make us less spiritually.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

Of course the trouble is Islam itself. All these groups are products of Islam. Given that, how is it possible to think that Islam isn't in fact the problem? Acknowledging this fact does not make someone a bigot.

I'm only going to do this once.

X produces good things.

X also produces bad things.

Therefore X is all bad.

That is the logic of a bigot. Right before he starts saying X actually never produced anything good.

And, yes, calling that a "fact" makes one a bigot.

Michael

Islam produces good things.

Islam produces bad things.

Therefore Islam is all bad.

That does not represent my thinking at all.

The jihad groups are products of Islam. They follow the teachings of their prophet, Muhammad. They claim that they follow Islam without any sugar coating. When you look at the teachings they refer to, you find that they do in fact follow Muhammad's teachings as Muhammad required. Islam is indeed what creates them. To pretend that this is not the case is to evade reality. It also doesn't logically follow that to acknowledge the case means to treat all muslims as one and the same.

[Richard Wiig]

But Infidel's contention is strengthened by the tacit approval of the billions of so-called "decent moderate Muslims" who have NO problem with their religion being perverted by Islamic fascists. Why? Because that perversion is already built into the religion itself.

Greg

They are not in fact perverting it. It is often stated that they are, but never is any example provided of just how in fact it is being perverted.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Blah blah blah..

It's getting to the point of repeating the same crap over and over and preaching.

Chill for a while.

Go find someone who doesn't evade reality and preach to him.

EDIT: I mean it. It didn't take long for the machine-gun posting, saying the same thing each time with short bursts, to start.

Who can discuss anything with that crap going on?

Michael

[moralist]

Blah blah blah..

It's getting to the point of repeating the same crap over and over and preaching.

Chill for a while.

Go find someone who doesn't evade reality and preach to him.

EDIT: I mean it. It didn't take long for the machine-gun posting, saying the same thing each time with short bursts, to start.

Who can discuss anything with that crap going on?

Michael

Michael. I have a couple of very simple questions for you to consider...

Why aren't the "decent Muslims" standing up to the Islamic fascists when they overwhelmingly outnumber them?

Why aren't the "decent Muslims" prevailing over the Islamic Fascists?

Greg

[Selene]

I wonder, though, if they will blow that "Project X" dam? (If Israel blows Aswan that would be the effective end of Egypt.)

Brant:

I am sure that there are responsible military policy members in Israel that have that operation planned. I would.

I am extremely concerned about ISIS just opening the gates, they could flush out and drown millions.

I thought I saw some mention of fighting around the damn today.

A...

Israel will never do that. Egypt's not the problem. Islamists can't get enough traction in Egypt. The pyramids remind Egyptians there was glory long before their religion and it's their own historical glory.

Really Brant?

If the Muslim Brotherhood Army was marching across the Sinai after retaking Egypt, I don't think they would think twice about it.

Hell the British and the Allies didn't shrink from it in 1943, with Operation Chastise...

The targets were three water dams in Germany's Ruhr industrial region. Two on the rivers Möhne and Sorpe, and a third on the River Eder.

Wonder how many German civilians drowned downstream?

Next to be targeted was the Eder Dam.

The Eder Dam after the Dam Buster raid Credit: Topham/Topham Picturepoint/Press Association Images

Very nice science on the "bouncing bombs."

The inventor of the bouncing bomb, Sir Barnes Wallis. Credit: RAF/MOD

The "bouncing bombs" - codenamed "Upkeep" - were designed to be dropped from a very low altitude, and bounce on the water to bypass the defences around the dams.

A " bouncing bomb " during testing in early 1943. Credit: Topham/Topham Picturepoint/Press Association Images

These pilots had to come in at one hundred feet [100'] - courageous men.

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-05-16/70th-anniversary-of-617-squadrons-famous-dambusters-wwii-raid-operation-chastise/

Kinda like us kids skipping stones [flat] across a pond or lake.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Note, I moved a couple of posts (one by Infidel and one by me) to here as it dealt directly with that topic.

Michael