What happened to classical music?


Serapis Bey

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I once read an interesting speculation (can't remember from where) concerning the decline of classical music in our culture. The idea was that in the past, going back to Bach, the most intelligent of the population who were not born into wealth and aristocracy would naturally gravitate to music, since music was the sole avenue through which to express their perceptive intelligence. But beginning with say, the Industrial Revolution, the brightest minds had new opportunities, and began gravitating towards science and technology, leaving the musical field to the also-rans, C-listers, and second-handers.

Makes sense to me. What d'yall think?

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How well does doing classical music pay as opposed to doing engineering or applied science?

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How well does doing classical music pay as opposed to doing engineering or applied science?

Or being a mediocre singer with a good schtick and dance move? (Beiber, GaGa, Black Eyed Peas, etc)

Seriously, television and video games have changed people so that they are primarily visually educated and entertained. Watching a symphony orchestra perform isn't all that exciting. Classical music also has longer movements (leider excluded) requiring more time and, egads!, mental engagement than a three minute pop song. Forty+ years ago symphony performances were frequently televised, now even PBS rarely carries this type of programming outside of the latest Andre Rieu holiday tripe.

I don't think the brightest minds gravitated toward science as musical genius is isn't the same thing as overall intelligence. 1685 was a banner year: Bach, Handel and Scarlatti were born.

Then consider the existing sociological trends facing the composer. I wonder what Shostakovich might have composed had be been born in the US rather than living in the USSR?

And remember, if it ain't baroque, fix it!

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Is it true that Serapis Bey is the "libertarian racist" Brad Trun? (I find the premise of the original post flawed, but I am not about to join a discussion with a troll. I am always pleasantly surprised at MSK's very thick skin.)

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I once read an interesting speculation (can't remember from where) concerning the decline of classical music in our culture. The idea was that in the past, going back to Bach, the most intelligent of the population who were not born into wealth and aristocracy would naturally gravitate to music, since music was the sole avenue through which to express their perceptive intelligence. But beginning with say, the Industrial Revolution, the brightest minds had new opportunities, and began gravitating towards science and technology, leaving the musical field to the also-rans, C-listers, and second-handers.

Makes sense to me. What d'yall think?

With a theory like that, I think you'd have to show that the brightest minds are capable of switching between activities and being equally great at them. From my experience, I don't think that it works that way. A person who was born with the type of mind that quickly discovers its own talents and passions for math can't become a great composer at will, or because of economic incentive or whatever.

J

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Some "classical" music writers of this century and the last who wrote for the movies:

John Williams (b. 1932), e.g. first Star Wars movie

Bruce Broughton (b. 1945), e.g. Baby's Day Out

Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975), e.g. North by Northwest

Elmer Bernstein (1922-2004), e.g. The Hallelujah Trail

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Some "classical" music writers of this century and the last who wrote for the movies:

John Williams (b. 1932), e.g. first Star Wars movie

Bruce Broughton (b. 1945), e.g. Baby's Day Out

Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975), e.g. North by Northwest

Elmer Bernstein (1922-2004), e.g. The Hallelujah Trail

Nino Rota, Ennio Morricone

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Some "classical" music writers of this century and the last who wrote for the movies:

John Williams (b. 1932), e.g. first Star Wars movie

Bruce Broughton (b. 1945), e.g. Baby's Day Out

Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975), e.g. North by Northwest

Elmer Bernstein (1922-2004), e.g. The Hallelujah Trail

Nino Rota, Ennio Morricone

Billy Joel has also written good classical music. Paul McCartney, not so much (sorry, Kat!)

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Paul McCartney, not so much (sorry, Kat!)

Not even the symphonic extension of Eleanor Rigby and its transitioning into Eleanor's Dream (starting at about 2:05 in the following clip)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-uOgVN0KA

J

Yes, this is pretty good. Not as good as Joel though, I still think. And the Liverpool Oratorio - the St John Passion, it isn't.

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I once read an interesting speculation (can't remember from where) concerning the decline of classical music in our culture. The idea was that in the past, going back to Bach, the most intelligent of the population who were not born into wealth and aristocracy would naturally gravitate to music, since music was the sole avenue through which to express their perceptive intelligence.

I would not limit the love of music to expressing one's perceptive 'intelligence'. It is far deeper ingrained. Even fetuses in the womb react to music.

But it is true that in the past, those who were not born into wealth always had music to express themselves (and if it was only through the one 'instrument' we are all born with: the human voice).

In his autobiography, German tenor Rudolf Schock (1915- 1986), who had been born into a family of poor miners, mentions the large number of choirs and singing clubs in the mining district. Singing was a hobby 'free of charge', so to speak, which offered the miners a huge stress relief from their arduous daily toil. Schock's father taught his five children polyphonic singing at an early age.

But I suppose the 'underprivileged members of society' in our cybertech-age hardly resort to singing anymore ...

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Mark noted John Williams (b. 1932), e.g. first Star Wars movie,

And I heartily agree with his assessment.

Coincidentally I watched a few minutes of Superman last night and the theme song is fantastic. I even liked Lois Lane, as she was being flown through the air, wondering if he could read her mind. When I first saw that scene in a movie theatre, I thought it was funny, but this time I thought it was beautiful. I think I thought it was funny because Superman could not hear her naughty thoughts but the audience sure could.

Peter

From Wikipedia:

John Towner Williams (born February 8, 1932) is an American composer, conductor and pianist. He is considered to be one of the greatest and most influential and successful film composers of all time. In a career spanning over six decades, he has composed some of the most recognizable film scores in cinematic history, including the Star Wars saga, Jaws, Superman, the Indiana Jones films, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, Home Alone and its sequel, Hook, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, War Horse, Lincoln, and the first three Harry Potter films. He has had a long association with director Steven Spielberg, composing the music for all but two (Duel and The Color Purple) of Spielberg's major feature films.

Other notable works by Williams include theme music for four Olympic Games, NBC Sunday Night Football, the NBC Nightly News, the Statue of Liberty's rededication, and the television series Lost in Space and Land of the Giants. Williams has also composed numerous classical concerti, and he served as the Boston Pops Orchestra's principal conductor from 1980 to 1993; he is now the orchestra's conductor laureate.

end quote

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The idea was that in the past, going back to Bach, the most intelligent of the population who were not born into wealth and aristocracy would naturally gravitate to music, since music was the sole avenue through which to express their perceptive intelligence. But beginning with say, the Industrial Revolution, the brightest minds had new opportunities, and began gravitating towards science and technology, leaving the musical field to the also-rans, C-listers, and second-handers.

Can you supply examples to illustrate this claim? Bach and Mozart, the two biggest pre-Industrial names, were born to families of musicians, and most 19th century composers were drawn to music in childhood. I don't see it as a matter of there being no other opportunities, just that unique talents come along (from nature or nurture) that express themselves through music if/when they can, usually starting early like with many math and chess geniuses.

For your hypothesis to be correct we'd have to concede that the 19th century was a time of C-listers and also-rans, and I think that's wrong wrong wrong.

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I once read an interesting speculation (can't remember from where) concerning the decline of classical music in our culture. The idea was that in the past, going back to Bach, the most intelligent of the population who were not born into wealth and aristocracy would naturally gravitate to music, since music was the sole avenue through which to express their perceptive intelligence.

I would not limit the love of music to expressing one's perceptive 'intelligence'. It is far deeper ingrained. Even fetuses in the womb react to music.

But it is true that in the past, those who were not born into wealth always had music to express themselves (and if it was only through the one 'instrument' we are all born with: the human voice).

In his autobiography, German tenor Rudolf Schock (1915- 1986), who had been born into a family of poor miners, mentions the large number of choirs and singing clubs in the mining district. Singing was a hobby 'free of charge', so to speak, which offered the miners a huge stress relief lfrom their arduous daily toil. Schock's father taught his five children polyphonic singing at an early age.

But I suppose the 'underprivileged members of society' in our cybertech-age hardly resort to singing anymore ...

Wales and Cape Breton also have strong mining choir traditions - the Men of the Deep are among my faves, and who could forget "Men of Harlech" in the film Zulu?

imo evryone should be required to learn the basics of an instrument as a condition for graduation from high school. And the example of the great British series "The Choir" should be followed in every school.

To Mark - how could I forget Anderson? Bugler's holiday is a delight.

Yes MSK, I have a thing for the brass section

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Can you supply examples to illustrate this claim? Bach and Mozart, the two biggest pre-Industrial names, were born to families of musicians, and most 19th century composers were drawn to music in childhood. I don't see it as a matter of there being no other opportunities, just that unique talents come along (from nature or nurture) that express themselves through music if/when they can, usually starting early like with many math and chess geniuses.

For your hypothesis to be correct we'd have to concede that the 19th century was a time of C-listers and also-rans, and I think that's wrong wrong wrong.

I mispoke when I specified the Industrial Revolution. I suppose since the original idea has to do with significant changes in culture, my mind immediately went to the IR. But I imagine the responsibilities in running a factory or managing grunt workers aren't exactly relevant. Since the speculation had to do with _science_ and _technology_, I probably should have moved the date up a bit. (Anyone more learned than I on the history of science and technology feel free to set me straight)

As far as composers, I had in mind folks like the eeevul Berg, the eeevul Schoenberg, and the eeevul John Cage, to say nothing of what followed them (and what I recall hearing with you at recitals back in school).

Some of the examples listed here of good modern classical music show that they are invariably wedded to some commercial enterprise, and not the pure music-for-its-own-sake I had in mind. That's not to say there is no greatness there. I adore Ennio Morricone, for instance. But he did film music. Somewhat relevant: I once had a dream to be a film composer, and that dream was inspired by my love of Morricone's music. Unfortunately, I didn't realize at the time that much of my love had to do with the fact that the music was wedded to film, and my emotional response had as much to do with the drama unfolding on screen as with the music itself. I didn't realize that in time. Alas.

Anyway, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just found it thought provoking.

Thanks for the replies.

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Is it true that Serapis Bey is the "libertarian racist" Brad Trun? (I find the premise of the original post flawed, but I am not about to join a discussion with a troll.

For the second time: No. I am not he. Seems like something's got your goat.

But I will confess that yes, I am a racist. And an anti-Semite. And a misogynist. Just an all around misanthrope, really.

You know what a racist is, right? It used to mean "Someone who doesn't like blacks." Now it means, "Someone the blacks don't like."

You know what an anti-semite is, right? It used to mean "Someone who doesn't like Jews." Now it means...

Well, you get the point.

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Read the letters of Mozart, Beethoven (what few there are), and Chopin. Their composing was very much a commercial enterprise (Mozart is sort of a mixed case because he began as a court musician.)

Getting back to making a list, some of the composers of Broadway musicals approach classical class. Meredith Willson (1902 – 1984) composed two symphonies as well as the music and lyrics for The Music Man, The Unsinkable Molly Brown, and several independent songs. I haven't heard his symphonic works but the musicals are good enough to put him in this list. (Unfortunately according to Wikipedia one of his works is "Ask Not" that puts Kennedy’s infamous line to music.)

The reason I mentioned movie music first is that "popular music," as in what you hear turning on the radio at random, is dead. Now only movie scores feature intelligent music, sometimes, and if you can stand the movie.

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Is it true that Serapis Bey is the "libertarian racist" Brad Trun? (I find the premise of the original post flawed, but I am not about to join a discussion with a troll. I am always pleasantly surprised at MSK's very thick skin.)

SB is not Brad Trun (whoever that is).

Not a libertarian either, as far as I know.

Can't speak for any of the rest.

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To answer the question, "No." The same claim might broadly be made either way for mechanical versus electrical engineering back then. That it could be argued either way shows its arbitrariness. In other words, in the days of steam, before electricity dominated, bright men when into mechanical engineering, then with the advent of electricity, they abandoned machineries. Today, they go into software, gaming software at that. But those are all narrow fields within your broader clam of "science" versus "music." How do you explain Einstein and the violin or Borodin as a doctor? Yes, you can claim that individual outliers do not negate the broader theory. I suggest that absent actual data points, all you have is an open claim without any evidence.

The replies here about John Williams, et al, also indicate that "traditional" classical music is alive an well. As for modern "classical" (academic) music, it, too, continues. For the past 100 years, though, "classical" music (Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg) has been about conveying something other than the upsweeping of uncontrolled emotions in reflection of national identity. It is more cerebral now.It demands an audience who knows the entire broad and deep canon from ancients through Bach, et al., and into modern "classical" including jazz (Gershwin, Bernstein), and all the rest. The hardest thing about music is its immediate temporality.

With sculpture or painting, you can take your time and view the object from different angles; sit or stand, and contemplate. With literature or poetry, you can compare and contrast passages, deconstruct and reconstruct them, admire the workmanship (or not). With music, it all comes at you and then is gone. You have to keep what you heard in your head while listening to the next delivery. With romantic or "classical" the immediacy works well: you go from one moment to another. Other forms require more understanding going into the process.

Michael E. Marotta, on 12 Apr 2013 - 10:14, said:snapback.png

Is it true that Serapis Bey is the "libertarian racist" Brad Trun? (I find the premise of the original post flawed, but I am not about to join a discussion with a troll.

For the second time: No. I am not he. Seems like something's got your goat.

I did not see the first denial. Sorry for the confusion. It was suggested on the basis of your avatar: "... regarded in Theosophy as being one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom..." (Wikipedia). Again, my apologies.

Daunce, he may or may not actually believe what he claims, but is only yanking my (and your) chain.

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With music, it all comes at you and then is gone. You have to keep what you heard in your head while listening to the next delivery. With romantic or "classical" the immediacy works well: you go from one moment to another. Other forms require more understanding going into the process.

To appreciate music not only must you remember what came before, it helps to have whatever the aural analogue to an eidetic memory is. By that I mean that sounds sort of hang in the air, you can hear them over for a time. The advantages of an aural memory should be obvious: hearing repeated motifs, suspense, relations from one phrase and section to another. The advantage is more than that too but I haven't analyzed it. Anyway, one note isolated from another would be just a series of tinkles without meaning.

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The replies here about John Williams, et al, also indicate that "traditional" classical music is alive an well.

But is it not the case that film music must make allowances for the conceptual action on screen? Mustn't the film composer make space for the drama? The film itself does the "heavy lifting" of providing the suitable content to inform the musical themes. It seems to me that film music, as incredible as it can be, does not contain the dense thematic development you find in traditional classical music, where the listener needs to bring more to the table in assessing the overall thrust of the piece.

As for modern "classical" (academic) music, it, too, continues. For the past 100 years, though, "classical" music (Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg) has been about conveying something other than the upsweeping of uncontrolled emotions in reflection of national identity. It is more cerebral now.

Do you prefer this type of music to what came before? BTW, I do enjoy Debussy.

Daunce, he may or may not actually believe what he claims, but is only yanking my (and your) chain.

Yes Daunce, it's true. I am an inveterate yanker-of-chains. All in good fun...

But...and I hesitate to say this...in spite of what I just said....the fact is....and I say this with a heavy heart: I truly am a misogynist. I hang my head in shame as I write this. But it's true.

mi·sog·y·nist (/məˈsäjənist) - n.: A man who hates women almost as much as women hate each other.

(meow)

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Do you prefer this type of music to what came before? BTW, I do enjoy Debussy.

Daunce, he may or may not actually believe what he claims, but is only yanking my (and your) chain.

Yes Daunce, it's true. I am an inveterate yanker-of-chains. All in good fun...

But...and I hesitate to say this...in spite of what I just said....the fact is....and I say this with a heavy heart: I truly am a misogynist. I hang my head in shame as I write this. But it's true.

mi·sog·y·nist (/məˈsäjənist) - n.: A man who hates women almost as much as women hate each other.

(meow)

Well, you keep mentioning that, so I guess I'm expected to make some response. Here goes...

Hey Serapis, stop hating women, OK?

Debussy is annoying.

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